Getting Published: What To Do If You Can't Get An Agent

[Jason Byrne]

I've self-published six novels to date, and my entire cost up front (Since I'm a career designer, I don't pay for any marketing or book cover design, etc.) for each book has been in the range of US$20-30 for proofing and ISBN purchase. I don't produce anything in hardbound, and use CreateSpace for all print. I use both Amazon and Smashwords for eBook production and sales as well as two levels of distribution internationally from each. All my titles are in Bowker's catalog as well as the distributor's catalogs, including Ingram. Here's my point, if you can write a good novel, edit it properly and be ready to go, once you've figured out that you're not going to be an agent's cash cow nor a publisher's best investment (and many of you actually might, depending upon your work and its genre niche) then you can make an attempt to self-publish and give it a go for small cost. If you have access to a few thousand pounds/dollars, it will certainly help with the cost of professional marketing, which is the most important part of it as it is with traditional publishing. As far as FB and Twitter for social media marketing goes, both are now so saturated that it's very hard to get noticed unless you have an excellent system to parse your followers down to a very tight niche. My 800 some odd followers don't really produce much in the way of sales directly, but exposure is exposure, I guess. I keep the number of followers low by weeding constantly to stay within my genre realms and reader interests and not spamming every day, but I've been told that unless you have at least 1500 followers, you just aren't that attractive as a marketing tool. So Twitter at least, remains a purely numbers game.

If you want to traditionally publish eventually, that's a gamble. An agent will look at the query letter and sample if you're unpublished; if you've self-published they'll look at your sales and scalability.

Have people bought your book? Do they continue to buy your book? If 200 people bought it and then no one after that, then only 200 people wanted it and now they all have it. No point in putting money into publishing it. So if you want to traditionally publish, self-publishing beforehand will either help or hurt your chances.

 

[J. Rook]

Am very confused. I have no idea on bgs so there is nothing to differntiate with me on this. I just wondered what it is? Surely searching for knowledge can't be seen as intimidating??

This is my fault, and I am sorry. I was not intimidated; I just did not want to spend time unnecessarily. From the note you sent me I assumed that you knew about "Books Go Social", probably the largest book-based group on Facebook. Among my group of author acquaintances (many of them in North America) BGS is beginning to exert a slightly polarising effect and I simply wondered what the Litopia colony thought about it. I didn't understand that you wanted to know about BGS. More apologies. The group is both for writers: https://www.facebook.com/groups/booksgosocialauthors/ and readerss: https://www.facebook.com/groups/booksgosocialreaders/. That is, if you bother with Facebook.

 

[J. Rook]

@J. Rook, we're only asking because we haven't seen it on Facebook, that's all.

You haven't seen BGS on Facebook " - you never - well, I - what have you been doing, then?" (the Rat to the Mole from "The Wind in the Willows"). Your Facebook haunts are different from mine because you're probably more sensible than I. I have sent the links to Emurelda.

 

[J. Rook]

Thank you. I'll have a look for the thread.

 

[J. Rook]

I've self-published six novels to date, and my entire cost up front (Since I'm a career designer, I don't pay for any marketing or book cover design, etc.) for each book has been in the range of US$20-30 for proofing and ISBN purchase. I don't produce anything in hardbound, and use CreateSpace for all print. I use both Amazon and Smashwords for eBook production and sales as well as two levels of distribution internationally from each. All my titles are in Bowker's catalog as well as the distributor's catalogs, including Ingram. Here's my point, if you can write a good novel, edit it properly and be ready to go, once you've figured out that you're not going to be an agent's cash cow nor a publisher's best investment (and many of you actually might, depending upon your work and its genre niche) then you can make an attempt to self-publish and give it a go for small cost. If you have access to a few thousand pounds/dollars, it will certainly help with the cost of professional marketing, which is the most important part of it as it is with traditional publishing. As far as FB and Twitter for social media marketing goes, both are now so saturated that it's very hard to get noticed unless you have an excellent system to parse your followers down to a very tight niche. My 800 some odd followers don't really produce much in the way of sales directly, but exposure is exposure, I guess. I keep the number of followers low by weeding constantly to stay within my genre realms and reader interests and not spamming every day, but I've been told that unless you have at least 1500 followers, you just aren't that attractive as a marketing tool. So Twitter at least, remains a purely numbers game.

Self-publishing is an option that I have adopted, but the time which I am almost forced to spend in the subsequent online marketing is depleting my writing time, and for me that is a high cost factor. Twitter is indeed a numbers game. As a reader I go straight to bookshelves (preferably in one of the few remaining bookshops) or on line. I don't take much notice of the billboards moving past me.

 

[J. Rook]

I now use the SW formatting guide to format all eBooks, first. Run the autovetter, set up the ToC (NEVER use the auto-generated ToC from MS Word. It wreaks havoc with the formats and won't work on a reader!) Once everything checks out on SW, I change the title page, for Kindle information and title the version for Amazon, change the ISBN, remove all SW links at the end, etc. and upload the pdf to KDP. It took a while (3 books, actually ) to get it down, but it is worth it overall. The thing with an agent is that they certainly can grease the skids for you, if you write a mass-market genre that they can turn a few bucks with. If you don't, no matter how well you write, you're never going to find an agent willing to give up their time with little return guarantee. I will never write a best seller. I will never write a urban thriller. Etc., etc. The truth about the industry is very simple to understand. It's a business, not an institution of learning. If a lot of money can be made with your work, they'll happily take it on, even if the only cache it has is your celeb cred. If you write in an obscure academic style, you may find academic presses willing to publish it for the glory of discovery alone, but if you write in between genres, etc., even if a good writer, you will probably never get a publishing contract. Such are the facts on the ground that I've been able to discover.

Alas! Some of the people who have read my books tell me that they are eminently readable - but strange. Although I write in a reasonably mass-market genre (Sci-fi) I have the feeling that this strangeness will stop my books being mass-accepted. That's a pity, but I can't write my Sci-fi stories differently. I agree with Richard. The Smashwords formatting guide is the ultimate road to epublishing format success. It took me three days to format my first book, following Mark Coker's instructions. Formatting my other books has been (as they say) a "doddle", and I have helped others with their formatting difficulties. Once formatted successfully for SW, putting the same manuscript up onto Amazon Kindle is plain sailing.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

If you want to traditionally publish eventually, that's a gamble. An agent will look at the query letter and sample if you're unpublished; if you've self-published they'll look at your sales and scalability.

Have people bought your book? Do they continue to buy your book? If 200 people bought it and then no one after that, then only 200 people wanted it and now they all have it. No point in putting money into publishing it. So if you want to traditionally publish, self-publishing beforehand will either help or hurt your chances.

Hubby did some research on this exact topic today, and he said that if you self-publish on your own before traditionally publishing, that agents won't even notice it unless it's phenomenal or you get absolutely terrible reviews. Mediocre won't help or hurt you.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Ditto, never heard of BGS on facebook either, and I've been on facebook for over 6 years!

 

[Paul Whybrow]

However well we write, edit and format, this is true:

 

[J. Rook]

Note to Seashore; Did you see my response on the "Hello from London" thread?

 

[J. Rook]

Ditto, never heard of BGS on facebook either, and I've been on facebook for over 6 years!

Clearly, we move in different FB circles, but perhaps that separation is a proper and fundamental characteristic of the huge entity. I've just liked your Poetry page.

 

[Carol Rose]

@J. Rook, I'm not trying to be mean here or anything, but there are literally thousands of groups just like those two all over Facebook, some with a lot more members in them. I've been on Facebook under various names for many years. Most reader groups like this end up being nothing but promo dumps, and unless the author groups are well run and the trolls and abusers kept to a minimum, they end up being huge time wasters that don't really advance an author's career. I happen to know the two admins in the author group. One of them has reviewed all my Ravenna Tate books for one of her newer blogs, and they're both level-headed people, so I'm sure they do a great job in there as admins. But honestly, it's just one group of thousands. I'm happy you're enjoying it and getting a lot out of it, but it really isn't that much of a shock that not everyone on Litopia has heard of it.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

However well we write, edit and format, this is true:

I think I disagree with this. I read a book recently that I was enthralled with the story but the author kept using cheap writing tricks and it was ticking me off. People had the same complaint about 50 Shades of Gray.

 

[Carol Rose]

Certain books prove you can write like shit and still become a millionaire if you strike the right chords with the right audience, and are in the right place at the right time. Oh, and if you have a kick-ass PR and marketing team.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

Yeah, I'm not saying the story won't sell. I was just pointing out that it's not the best option. I see 50 Shades's writing get mocked all the time on social media.

 

[Carol Rose]

Best option is a relative phrase I suppose. I'm betting E.L. James isn't worried about whether or not she chose the best option. And we've already seen evidence she doesn't really care that her books get mocked. I see just as many readers who adored them, and admit they were the books that led them to seek out other erotic romance writers.

The books brought BDSM into the mainstream, and even though she got most of it (all of it!) wrong, it's given those of us who write it and actually DID research it the opportunity to educate our readers. It's opened a whole new world in which to write for many of us, and opened up engaging, positive dialogue about heroes, heroines, and what each of them want in a relationship.

The sad truth is that the majority of our readers don't know or don't care whether the book is perfectly written. They simply want to read a good STORY. If the writing is stellar, that's a bonus to them, and they will keep coming to those authors knowing they won't have to wade through awkward sentence structure, poor grammar, or misspelled words to reach the meat of the story. But they also don't automatically reject authors who aren't the strongest technical writers, but who can tell one heck of a great story with memorable characters.

Those of us (like me!) who focus more on technical skills than character development in that first pass are actually at a disadvantage. I need to work hard on my story and character arcs. Other writers have that down pat as easily as I can whip up a sentence that makes sense and is punctuated correctly. I envy them, to be honest. Layering in emotion or the right amount of empathy - and that special something that instantly connects a reader to their story - isn't a skill that comes easily to me. I wish it did.

 

[Emurelda]

Although I haven't read 50 shades of grey, I do understand that with popular books tend to attract negative attention too. It's just part and parcel. Doesn't have any affect on the sales and the author probably doesn't care much about that. I'm not sure I do either as i'm not a reader of that book but it doesn't matter. What I agree with both Paul and Carol here is getting a good story out there. No point being technically correct in my writing if ends up being bland. I'm saying this as I look through my work and find that I seem off the mark on both areas!!!

 

[Carol Rose]

I've been pulled in by fabulous stories while cringing at the writing at the same time. I'm sure we all have. But I read the manuscript or book because I can't put it down. To me, that's the hallmark of a talented writer. Minor editing issues can always be fixed, but you can't teach someone how to tell an engaging story. That comes from within.

 

[Emurelda]

I've been pulled in by fabulous stories while cringing at the writing at the same time. I'm sure we all have. But I read the manuscript or book because I can't put it down. To me, that's the hallmark of a talented writer. Minor editing issues can always be fixed, but you can't teach someone how to tell an engaging story. That comes from within.

It's interesting now I'm sitting on this side of reading (as a writer) and recently finished Percy Jackson and the Sea of Monsters...found myself criticising the writing (lol the cheek of it! I know ) then started looking beyond the technical and actually reading with interest how the author made me feel excited at certain parts - I remembered cookies mentioned by Agent Pete - and how in every page there was an event when I would get excited, nervous for the protagonist and really admired how authors do that. I can begin slightly to look at my own book and try to pick it so that I can apply what I've learned from reading published authors who create exciting stories that might not technically be perfect. But no one is. That's the beauty. We all have a chance at publishing that way .

 

[Jason Byrne]

Hubby did some research on this exact topic today, and he said that if you self-publish on your own before traditionally publishing, that agents won't even notice it unless it's phenomenal or you get absolutely terrible reviews. Mediocre won't help or hurt you.

Well, well... thank you @Nicole Wilson; I'm only going off of what I've heard second-hand, and have no data of merit to contribute. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

If Michael's right, that's very reassuring, and dispels a HUGE concern I've had with self-publishing. I mean, publishing companies and literary agents are such a large and successful industry for a reason! Because writers are not particularly good on the whole in terms of marketing and business savvy. Except @Emurelda. I am certain that I would not be nearly as good at marketing my book and getting it to the public en masse as would a literary agent and publishing company. So I do not believe my sales numbers will be of particular note to an agent. So I don't bother with self-publishing. Better to be judged solely on the merits of the book and succeed or fail in that respect, than make an amateurish attempt at self-publishing, and be judged solely on my returns and no longer on the book itself.

Like, if you don't know how to shoot, why risk shooting yourself in the foot? Just hand the damn gun to a Marine! That's why we have Marines! Because most of us aren't qualified to fight Evildoers on our own. Though, in point of fact, I did very seriously consider going into the Marines, and have always regretted the fact that I didn't fight for my country, in a "the strong protect the weak because they should" sort of way. And I think I would have done very well. But that's neither here nor there.

Now, the crux of the matter is my understanding of the scalability of the book as it pertains to self-publishing comes from @AgentPete, so I would be interested to hear the insight of our bold leader. Do I have a correct understanding of the dangers of self-publishing? Has the climate continued to change since my understanding of it?

 

[Carol Rose]

It's interesting now I'm sitting on this side of reading (as a writer) and recently finished Percy Jackson and the Sea of Monsters...found myself criticising the writing (lol the cheek of it! I know ) then started looking beyond the technical and actually reading with interest how the author made me feel excited at certain parts - I remembered cookies mentioned by Agent Pete - and how in every page there was an event when I would get excited, nervous for the protagonist and really admired how authors do that. I can begin slightly to look at my own book and try to pick it so that I can apply what I've learned from reading published authors who create exciting stories that might not technically be perfect. But no one is. That's the beauty. We all have a chance at publishing that way .

Yes! Exactly!

 

[Jason Byrne]

However well we write, edit and format, this is true:

I think I disagree with this. I read a book recently that I was enthralled with the story but the author kept using cheap writing tricks and it was ticking me off. People had the same complaint about 50 Shades of Gray.

Certain books prove you can write like shit and still become a millionaire if you strike the right chords with the right audience, and are in the right place at the right time. Oh, and if you have a kick-ass PR and marketing team.

I've been pulled in by fabulous stories while cringing at the writing at the same time. I'm sure we all have. But I read the manuscript or book because I can't put it down. To me, that's the hallmark of a talented writer. Minor editing issues can always be fixed, but you can't teach someone how to tell an engaging story. That comes from within.

You know, I agreed with the original message on cursory examination, but I can see the merit of all sides of this arguement. The truth is they're all correct. Books are interesting or boring. Well-written or poorly-written. And both success and failure have come to all permutations of these. As the rejection letters say, "it's a subjective market!"

 

[Carol Rose]

It is indeed, @Jason.

 

[Jason Byrne]

It is indeed, @Jason.

Which would seem to make the determining factor luck. That said, being well-prepared allows one to easily capitalize on good luck.

Who was it that said it, months ago... I think Bernard, "Wow! The harder I try, the luckier I get!"

 

[Paul Whybrow]

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Are you sure Paul? I mean all 100%, seems a little far fetched or foggy to me.

 

[Jason Byrne]

See? Like Paul said. Always, always shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[Emurelda]

You've got to be in it to win it.

Someone place that in a meme my internet is slow

 

[Emurelda]

Are you sure Paul? I mean all 100%, seems a little far fetched or foggy to me.

 

[Jason Byrne]

You've got to be in it to win it.

Someone place that in a meme my internet is slow

Positive Baby has already done just that.