Your Opinion Is Needed To Help Shape The Future Of The Colony

[Terry Lowell]

Sorry, Terry. I just mentioned a similar thing and didn't see you'd already suggested this.

But you did it much more eloquently

 

[Pamela Jo]

Critiquing is where the magic is, but also where the danger is. Pete's ability to give us an impartial critique from an industry viewpoint is the heart of Litopia. I trust his responses where as other writers I do have to take with a grain of salt.

Peyton is absolutely right in that our readers reaction is the most important feedback we can offer. The reality is that it also takes time from our own writing.

I'm not sure earning the right to a critique is going to work out because critiquing is not something everyone can do. Done badly it can set a writer on the wrong path or even tip them into block. Sheathing our own ego and not intruding our own views is a difficult writer thing to do. And newbies just learning the basic craft need critiquing they cannot yet offer at an equal value.


Part of what makes Huddle work too I think is that it is live and the writer hears the voice giving the feedback. What about writers from various genre's reproducing the Huddle at a time they determine for themselves? That could even lead to sub groups. This was Pete's goal as I understand it. He realises he cannot be everywhere at once. And it is a finite time commitment unlike beta reading.

Also what about a pay system for beta readers? If someone wants their whole book read they pay into a kitty that goes towards awarding a full membership to someone who needs it? Or maybe that amount is taken off the membership fee of the beta reader? Some people may offer to beta read for the discount, but if their advice is not really useful people will not chose to use them again. Maybe a tenner? or two depending on the length of manuscript? This should be possible to set up with the pay system we have already?

There could be a Litopian forum where beta readers step up and offer their services when it's more than say 3k words. The fees can vary according to amount of words.

For poems and short work I think the way it's done now gives a variety of voices and is similar to the Huddle. When I put my flash fiction and poems up the critique helped them to go on to place in the contests I entered. There is something about a crowd of voices that is better than one beta reader.

 

[Hannah F]

Critiquing is where the magic is, but also where the danger is. Pete's ability to give us an impartial critique from an industry viewpoint is the heart of Litopia. I trust his responses where as other writers I do have to take with a grain of salt.

Peyton is absolutely right in that our readers reaction is the most important feedback we can offer. The reality is that it also takes time from our own writing.

I'm not sure earning the right to a critique is going to work out because critiquing is not something everyone can do. Done badly it can set a writer on the wrong path or even tip them into block. Sheathing our own ego and not intruding our own views is a difficult writer thing to do. And newbies just learning the basic craft need critiquing they cannot yet offer at an equal value.


Part of what makes Huddle work too I think is that it is live and the writer hears the voice giving the feedback. What about writers from genre's reproducing the Huddle at a time they determine? That could even lead to sub groups. This was Pete's goal as I understand it. He realises he cannot be everywhere at once. And it is a finite time commitment unlike beta reading.

Also what about a pay system for beta readers? If someone wants their whole book read they pay into a kitty that goes towards awarding a full membership to someone who needs it? Or maybe that amount is taken off the membership fee of the beta reader? Some people may offer to beta read for the discount, but if their advice is not really useful people will not chose to use them again. Maybe a tenner? or two depending on the length of manuscript?

There could be a forum where beta readers step up and offer their services when it's more than say 5k words. The fees can vary according to time required.

For poems and short work I think the way it's done now gives a variety of voices and is similar to the Huddle. When I put my flash fiction and poems up the critique helped them to go on to place in the contests I entered. There is something about a crowd of voices that is better than one beta reader.

Some of us scrape the ~£10 per month for full memberships and huddles. If there was another financial block to gaining critique (as there is in the real world), people like me would find this Litopia opportunity beyond their grasp as well. Also, people who may not necessarily be the best at critique may see payment for beta reading as a good income thread (as per the real world) and do it for financial gain rather just because they care.

 

[Hannah F]

I agree about the imbalance. I think we already have the remedy: our ability to learn from experience. If someone requests crits but never gives them, we can ignore those requests, unless we are so taken with a story that we want to contribute without expectation of reciprocity. One of the best novels I read on Litopia was by someone who ghosted after I critiqued her book and provided a lot of editorial advice. I do not hold this against her. I wish her the best and hope to see her name in an awards list.

Before joining Litopia, I tried other online writers' groups. Litopia was my last resort because it involved swapping Word files, which are notorious for spreading viruses. Several groups required members to contribute a fixed number of crits before submitting work, with a required word count for each crit. If a crit did not meet the count, it did not count. Ask yourself, if a writer submits a first draft of a 500 word story, do you want to write a 500 word crit to score a point toward submitting your own third or fourth draft novel? And do you want someone whose writing amounts to 500 word stories in first draft critiquing your novel?

About limiting crits to genres, one group did that. The problem was writers often mis-categorized their stories. I see this on Litopia, too. It's hard to keep perspective. Is your book a paranormal romance, or a contemporary paranormal with romance, intrigue, and adventure? Maybe it is a cozy romance with paranormal elements and adventure. Maybe it's high fantasy with romance... This can go on and on.

One strength of Litopia is @AgentPete's idea of critiquing according to one's immediate reactions as one reads. He explains this in the introductory emails. That's what readers do. They read. As long as the story holds them, they continue. They do not grade on point systems or genre tropes. They read with their hearts. EM Forster said the same.

Let's stay with the present system. Anyone can submit work for critique. Anyone who wants can respond. If someone writes trash, ignore them. But let's not make a rigid rule to stand between our hearts and submissions, ours and others.

I agree. I critiqued someone's work a while ago who thanked me then disappeared. I loved their writing. If I discovered their book published I would buy it. I enjoyed the task and I don't begrudge a lack of reciprocity. It was historical fiction so not a genre I presently write in but a genre I frequently read.

There will always be the excusive takers, but there are plenty of givers on this site too. That's life and always will be.

Regarding a credit system. Individuals may initially come across as exclusive takers but perhaps they need to build up their confidence. They are afraid to give critique lest they ruin someone else's work through their lack of experience and knowledge. Kind critique of their work will bring them to a place where they feel they can reciprocate. We shouldn't judge. Some may be selfish but many will lack confidence or feel they lack sufficient expertise. Trying to make them do what they are afraid to do will simply send them away.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Some of us scrape the ~£10 per month for full memberships and huddles. If there was another financial block to gaining critique (as there is in the real world), people like me would find this Litopia opportunity beyond their grasp as well. Also, people who may not necessarily be the best at critique may see payment for beta reading as a good income thread (as per the real world) and do it for financial gain rather just because they care.

It is because of that that I think some way of paying that monthly fee could work. You are very generous with your time to everyone. It would be a way to reward people like you and Barbara. Nothing precludes private arrangements for beta readers. I think the pay system would mostly affect those who come just for the critiquing.

Anyone critiquing is going to be chosen not assigned and the gain is going to be capped at the yearly membership fee. But if the critiquer is that good then why shouldn't they go forth and edit for financial gain? I assume those doing voice work are getting paid? Wouldn't it come to the same?

 

[Barbara]

Pam's suggestion could be free to full members.

Or make the Workshops only available to full members. Like Huddles.

I don't know.

 

[Hannah F]

It is because of that that I think some way of paying that monthly fee could work. You are very generous with your time to everyone. It would be a way to reward people like you and Barbara. Nothing precludes private arrangements for beta readers. I think the pay system would mostly affect those who come just for the critiquing.

Anyone critiquing is going to be chosen not assigned and the gain is going to be capped at the yearly membership fee. But if the critiquer is that good then why shouldn't they go forth and edit for financial gain? I assume those doing voice work are getting paid? Wouldn't it come to the same?

If you're talking about pop ups, the narrators don't get paid. If someone from the outside world asks them for voice work that's a different story.

 

[Hannah F]

Pam's suggestion could be free to full members.

Or make the Workshops only available to full members. Like Huddles.

I don't know.

Or maybe basic will allow you to read the workshop thread but neither submit nor comment. That way newbies will see what their full membership will pay for.

 

[Jonny]

Yes, I think what's being suggested in the posts above re the workshops is worth considering.

I see it all the time. A new Basic member blows into town. Often their first port of call is Writing Workshops where they post their work, frequently without even introducing themselves. When they get what they want (unctuous praise and adulation... or perhaps something rather less in the form of practical help and sensible advice) the cloud of dust behind them as they leave us never to be seen again is infuriating.

I believe there should be a significant minimum number of posts made by newbies (say maybe 20) before they can put work in for critiquing. That would perhaps save the many good and kindhearted folks here, who give time fully and freely, from having their good nature abused.

 

[Hannah F]

Yes, I think what's being suggested in the posts above re the workshops is worth considering.

I see it all the time. A new Basic member blows into town. Often their first port of call is Writing Workshops where they post their work, quite often without even introducing themselves. When they get what they want (unctuous praise and adulation... or perhaps something rather less in the form of practical help and sensible advice) the cloud of dust behind them as they leave us never to be seen again is infuriating.

I believe there should be a significant minimum number of posts made by newbies (say maybe 20) before they can put work in for critiquing. That would perhaps save the many good and kindhearted folks here, who give time fully and freely, from having their good nature abused.

I remember a newbie called Sinead. She breezed in, accepted critique, and blew out again. I wonder what ever happened to her?

 

[Barbara]

I remember a newbie called Sinead. She breezed in, accepted critique, and blew out again. I wonder what ever happened to her?

Oh, I remember her too. What an impostor she turned out to be.

 

[Barbara]

I bet Sinead sold that very book you critiqued, @Hannah F. A multi million pound book deal, no doubt. Plus film right. I bet she is now living in an expensive house overlooking a golf course.

 

[Hannah F]

I bet Sinead sold that very book you critiqued, @Hannah F. A multi million pound book deal, no doubt. Plus film right. I bet she is now living in an expensive house overlooking a golf course.

Wiling away her luxurious days with a seven iron and Wodehouse on audio-loop.

 

[Jonny]

I remember a newbie called Sinead. She breezed in, accepted critique, and blew out again. I wonder what ever happened to her?

I miss her. She seemed like a pretty decent sort. She reminded me of someone.

Oh, I remember her too. What an impostor she turned out to be.

I think maybe she was in a witness protection programme. Someone here rumbled her and she had to skedaddle pronto.

 

[PCFrontier]

Hi all,
I am a new member and have been with Litopia for several months. I would like to say thank you to Agent Pete for setting up Litopia and for his time and effort in keeping Litopia and Pop Up Submissions going. I think the website is fine. I only have a few comments.

I had not heard of Litopia until I came across Pop Up Submissions and started watching them. I found them entertaining and informative and was prompted to join Litopia. Pop Up Submissions has helped my writing and I hope it continues and helps others. Good writing practice and writing mistakes are made clear with Pop Up Submissions. Perhaps more could be made of Pop Up Submissions for the entrants? Maybe having semi finals and an annual winner with trophy and accompanying press releases might be considered? I'll be interested to see what changes Pete has in mind.

I suggest keeping the Writers room and Writers workshop forums separate. To me they are clearly different. One is general writers chat, the other is requesting and giving feedback on writing submissions. I think merging them would make too large a forum and much harder to find what you want to read. I think it was Hannah? who made the suggestion that only members can put up writing in the workshop and ask for comments. This seems sensible to me. It would encourage new people to become members and create a bit more income for website maintenance which can be costly these days.

I like reading the old craft chats. I do not think craft chats should be archived.

Best wishes
Paul

 

[Mel L]

Litopia can feel intimidating to new members. I've been around for a year or so but I'm still learning the ropes. I know that all the information and rules of how things work are there if you dig in, but I seriously doubt many people take the time to do this.

How about a free weekly or monthly Zoom for newbies hosted by a couple of the more experienced members or guardians? It could help build the culture and create engagement, which could be a better way than introducing rules or a complicated point system.

 

[Pamela Jo]

I'm talking about di

If you're talking about pop ups, the narrators don't get paid. If someone from the outside world asks them for voice work that's a different story.

I'm talking about different story. If someone finds out they can make money doing something they enjoy through Litopia I dont see that as a drawback.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Or maybe basic will allow you to read the workshop thread but neither submit nor comment. That way newbies will see what their full membership will pay for.

The problem with this is of course that the fee for full membership is more onerous to some than others. That's why working to earn your way with critiquing could be a positive move. Esp since the incentive to do it well is built in. There needs to be a mechanism that motivates feedback the writer finds useful, not just feedback in volume. I think a lot of writer groups fail when they become dominated by a certain mindset. "The decider" of what is good and bad writing.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Litopia can feel intimidating to new members. I've been around for a year or so but I'm still learning the ropes. I know that all the information and rules of how things work are there if you dig in, but I seriously doubt many people take the time to do this.

How about a free weekly or monthly Zoom for newbies hosted by a couple of the more experienced members or guardians? It could help build the culture and create engagement, which could be a better way than introducing rules or a complicated point system.

I remember floundering at first too Mel. Now it seems very simple and straightforward to me. When I can't find something I just do a search. I'm afraid that would be my only advice to a newbie. For myself a zoom wouldn't have been helpful because I just have to push buttons and see what happens to figure out things.
What do you think of a zoom by genre? I think people writing fantasy etc would be benefitted by separate forums where you discuss industry trends and WIP. Ditto any other genre like romance or horror. Maybe there wouldnt be enough historical fiction for example but there could be crossover groups?

 

[Brooke]

And newbies just learning the basic craft need critiquing they cannot yet offer at an equal value.

i'm a bit late to this thread, but i'd really like to point this out!
i'm definitely a new writer who's still learning how to incorporate the fundamentals of 'good writing' into my writing by instinct. and since a lot of people here are experienced writers (and everyone here is at least more experienced than me), it's a bit intimidating to try and offer critique when the person i'm critiquing probably knows ten times more about writing than i do.
if i want to be able to critique well, i need to be better at writing for myself -- which involves getting critiques. but, of course, i don't want to be one of the infamous litopia users who takes without giving, so i tend to shy away from the entire writing workshops area. which really sucks, because 1. writing workshops is the core of litopia, and 2. i can't get much better without wading in and getting critiqued.
not sure what to do about this, but i'd definitely like to point it out to all of you!

 

[Rachael Burnett]

i'm a bit late to this thread, but i'd really like to point this out!
i'm definitely a new writer who's still learning how to incorporate the fundamentals of 'good writing' into my writing by instinct. and since a lot of people here are experienced writers (and everyone here is at least more experienced than me), it's a bit intimidating to try and offer critique when the person i'm critiquing probably knows ten times more about writing than i do.
if i want to be able to critique well, i need to be better at writing for myself -- which involves getting critiques. but, of course, i don't want to be one of the infamous litopia users who takes without giving, so i tend to shy away from the entire writing workshops area. which really sucks, because 1. writing workshops is the core of litopia, and 2. i can't get much better without wading in and getting critiqued.
not sure what to do about this, but i'd definitely like to point it out to all of you!

Brooke, I'd encourage you to post your writing. From what I've seen of your posts, you've really engaged with the community in the time since you joined. I'd be happy to read and critique any of your work (for what it's worth). I personally don't have a problem critiquing members who haven't critiqued. Your excellent points show why for those who don't require members to have critiqued before they receive critique, you should carry on posting. If members don't want to critique (for whatever reason) they simply won't. So, please, carry on posting and don't be discouraged. I don't believe you fit into any of the categories other members are frustrated about in terms of new membership and critiquing.

 

[Hannah F]

i'm a bit late to this thread, but i'd really like to point this out!
i'm definitely a new writer who's still learning how to incorporate the fundamentals of 'good writing' into my writing by instinct. and since a lot of people here are experienced writers (and everyone here is at least more experienced than me), it's a bit intimidating to try and offer critique when the person i'm critiquing probably knows ten times more about writing than i do.
if i want to be able to critique well, i need to be better at writing for myself -- which involves getting critiques. but, of course, i don't want to be one of the infamous litopia users who takes without giving, so i tend to shy away from the entire writing workshops area. which really sucks, because 1. writing workshops is the core of litopia, and 2. i can't get much better without wading in and getting critiqued.
not sure what to do about this, but i'd definitely like to point it out to all of you!

Very good point. We definitely don't want paths to involvement to become barriers.

 

[Hannah F]

Brooke, I'd encourage you to post your writing. From what I've seen of your posts, you've really engaged with the community in the time since you joined. I'd be happy to read and critique any of your work (for what it's worth). I personally don't have a problem critiquing members who haven't critiqued. Your excellent points show why for those who don't require members to have critiqued before they receive critique, you should carry on posting. If members don't want to critique (for whatever reason) they simply won't. So, please, carry on posting and don't be discouraged. I don't believe you fit into any of the categories other members are frustrated about in terms of new membership and critiquing.

I'm happy to critique too. I write and read YA so, adult as I am, I still count as part of your target audience, @Brooke. Tag me in or DM me, though, so I don't miss it.

 

[Barbara]

i don't want to be one of the infamous litopia users who takes without giving,

You're defo NOT one of those, so don't worry about that, and keep posting your work up.

As for giving crit, you don't need to be experienced as a writer. Everyone at every level has valid input. It's as much about reading as about writing. From what I've seen of your work, your are a good writer already, which means you have excellent instincts about the craft of it. You will find that when you analyse someone else's work, you'll start to see yours differently. So I suggest, when you're ready, pair up with someone you trust, and have a go at critiquing their work. I reckon you'll be quite good at it. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it. The input you've given at Huddles is always fab.

 

[Pamela Jo]

i'm a bit late to this thread, but i'd really like to point this out!
i'm definitely a new writer who's still learning how to incorporate the fundamentals of 'good writing' into my writing by instinct. and since a lot of people here are experienced writers (and everyone here is at least more experienced than me), it's a bit intimidating to try and offer critique when the person i'm critiquing probably knows ten times more about writing than i do.
if i want to be able to critique well, i need to be better at writing for myself -- which involves getting critiques. but, of course, i don't want to be one of the infamous litopia users who takes without giving, so i tend to shy away from the entire writing workshops area. which really sucks, because 1. writing workshops is the core of litopia, and 2. i can't get much better without wading in and getting critiqued.
not sure what to do about this, but i'd definitely like to point it out to all of you!

Wading in is good. I think a wash my back I'll wash yours ethic exists as is-for shorter pieces. It's when you get to reading an entire WIP the time commitment becomes problematic.
What new writers offer is a fresh eye as a reader. And readers are generally more forgiving of a book than writers who are looking at craft. As Pete points out there are plenty of popular writers out there who head hop-their readers dont care. So my comment wasn't meant to exclude the contribution of a newbie. But when I'm struggling because I know something isn't right-I'm just not sure what, then a more experienced writer can help with the forensics. And I think that is worth paying their membership fee for that month.

For FF, poetry, a short story I'd encourage you to jump in there and ask for opinions.

If you want someone to read your 80k manuscript how would you feel about asking if there was a fee involved?

 

[Pamela Jo]

Would a Tip Jar be a better way to reward people who've give you critiques that really helped?

 

[Hannah F]

If we have to start paying or even tipping for critiques, imo that changes the ethos of Litopia. It also divides the haves from the have-nots. Despite being someone who might benefit from the incoming dribble of dosh, I am not in favour.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

It would be great to have somewhere members could post their writing successes so we can all celebrate and be inspired by each other. Maybe a Hot News section. And if this already exists it needs to be more prominent.

Something like New in the Marketplace and Hall of Fame?

 

[RK Wallis]

it's a bit intimidating to try and offer critique when the person i'm critiquing probably knows ten times more about writing than i do.
if i want to be able to critique well, i need to be better at writing for myself

IMHO, the Litopia method isn't about what you know (that's up to individual writers to learn. We aren't here to be teachers), it's about how you react Fresh readers are always welcome. We have to start somewhere

If we have to start paying or even tipping for critiques, imo that changes the ethos of Litopia. It also divides the haves from the have-nots. Despite being someone who might benefit from the incoming dribble of dosh, I am not in favour.

I totally agree.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

If we have to start paying or even tipping for critiques, imo that changes the ethos of Litopia. It also divides the haves from the have-nots. Despite being someone who might benefit from the incoming dribble of dosh, I am not in favour.

Agreed. That is part of Litopia's uniqueness. Though it provides us all with help making our way to success in the literary marketplace, it also gives us a place of friendship and camaraderie. The marketplace is quantitative. Litopia is qualitative.