One knocks one off between tea and bedtime....

[Emurelda]

Interesting...it reminds of something...I recently discovered Once Upon a Time series...and love the number of dual worlds they've wrapped together;

real vs. magical
past vs. present
crime vs. fantasy

All leading to a future point through past events.

Again revolving around one main arc..the romance between two people who want to be together but have everything thrown against them.

This is a mammoth series with any writers. How you guys do it on your own is truly inspiring.

 

[Jason Byrne]

Interesting...it reminds of something...I recently discovered Once Upon a Time series...and love the number of twin worlds they've wrapped together;

real vs. magical
past vs. present
crime vs. fantasy

All leading to a future point and past events.

Again revolving around one main arc..the romance between two people who want to be together but have everything thrown against them.

This is a mammoth series with any writers. How you guys do it on your own is truly inspiring.

I followed Once through season 4 — I loved the way they took children's stories and wove them together in a new and interesting way — that's exactly what I do with medieval folklore. Similar themes. I think the Pan arc in the beginning of season 3 was my favorite, in particular how they treated his Shadow.

 

[Emurelda]

I followed Once through season 4 — I loved the way they took children's stories and wove them together in a new and interesting way — that's exactly what I do with medieval folklore. Similar themes.

I just finished season one yesterday. Started season 2 and just love it. So glad there was a satisfactory story closure in season 1. The main story plot was to break the curse...and the heroine did. Yes! So glad...i would not have followed it into season two if that didn't happen.

 

[Jason Byrne]

I just finished season one yesterday. Started season 2 and just love it. So glad there was a satisfactory story closure in season 1. The main story plot was to break the curse...and the heroine did. Yes! So glad...i would not have followed it into season two if that didn't happen.

They have a distinctly Karen Gray-esque way to turning everything on its head!

 

[James Marinero]

Good Christ, he's put out seventeen books this year. You think he only works on one project at a time? How does someone do that? I've been working on three books for five years. In that time he's published eighty-four...

A writing team.

 

[Jason Byrne]

A writing team.

Oh yeah. Well, that's no fair...

 

[James Marinero]

Oh yeah. Well, that's no fair...

That's big business. Patterson heads the UK list of borrowed library books. AFAIR it was 26 million borrows in 1 year. The list is somewhere on the web.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

Somehow I horribly disordered events, so people arrived places before they could have feasibly traveled that far, other people arrived a day too late to be involved in the events they were supposed to... it was mess. I scrapped the whole section and started over.

Been freakin there. Especially since I have to leave clues throughout my books. I just reread my first manuscript and had to rewrite half the climax scene because somehow the envelope (which is what they're fighting over) made it from my main character's pocket to the bad guy's hand and back to the main character's pocket. If I could have smacked my manuscript, I would have, but my laptop hurts considerably more...

 

[Emurelda]

A writing team.

Talk about an anti-climax! And eye opener all at once.

 

[Jason Byrne]

Been freakin there. Especially since I have to leave clues throughout my books. I just reread my first manuscript and had to rewrite half the climax scene because somehow the envelope (which is what they're fighting over) made it from my main character's pocket to the bad guy's hand and back to the main character's pocket. If I could have smacked my manuscript, I would have, but my laptop hurts considerably more...

ERMAGERD thank you — I hate it when stuff like this happens! I try to mitigate this by keeping detailed inventories, but keeping that up-to-date is just as much of a battle! Here's an example:

Alyn:
sword, buck knife, runic iolite ring, silver African opal binding ring
Sanction:
leather satchel, leopard claw necklace, shatranj rukh piece, ground hornbill skull, 160 lb. block of magic glass, fulgurite twig, and Geoff’s wooden flute shards, Wickham’s severed head, ruined dark gray knee-length tunic with flared sleeves and tight-fitting vest of soft leather, fighting boots, suede cloak, woolen cloak, leather skullcap, Collins’ brass paperweight, Crownfort kettle helm, Stag’s Head pewter tankard, and Geoff’s truncheon, letter blade, and portrait, ruined leather armor, blankets, horse blankets, deer pelt, and leopard pelt
Rush:
Qattara Depression salt chunks, flint rocks, and linen char cloths, grapnel and rope; wood axe, Crownfort halberd and shield covered in crossbow bolts, Dryer & Vance’s hand hatchets, Vance’s buck knife, 12 self bow arrows, İskenderūn self bow, whetstones, pairs of tongs, tin pots (Alyn & Vance’s), torches, oil cloths, yew longbow, 10 longbow arrows, steel helmet, cuirass, pauldrons, gauntlets, and greaves, mail hauberk, coif, and chausses, horse barding & chamfron
Rose:
white gold diamond ring with encased hair


In fact this is out of date. ****

 

[James Marinero]

ERMAGERD thank you — I hate it when stuff like this happens! I try to mitigate this by keeping detailed inventories, but keeping that up-to-date is just as much of a battle! Here's an example:

Alyn:
sword, buck knife, runic iolite ring, silver African opal binding ring
Sanction:
leather satchel, leopard claw necklace, shatranj rukh piece, ground hornbill skull, 160 lb. block of magic glass, fulgurite twig, and Geoff’s wooden flute shards, Wickham’s severed head, ruined dark gray knee-length tunic with flared sleeves and tight-fitting vest of soft leather, fighting boots, suede cloak, woolen cloak, leather skullcap, Collins’ brass paperweight, Crownfort kettle helm, Stag’s Head pewter tankard, and Geoff’s truncheon, letter blade, and portrait, ruined leather armor, blankets, horse blankets, deer pelt, and leopard pelt
Rush:
Qattara Depression salt chunks, flint rocks, and linen char cloths, grapnel and rope; wood axe, Crownfort halberd and shield covered in crossbow bolts, Dryer & Vance’s hand hatchets, Vance’s buck knife, 12 self bow arrows, İskenderūn self bow, whetstones, pairs of tongs, tin pots (Alyn & Vance’s), torches, oil cloths, yew longbow, 10 longbow arrows, steel helmet, cuirass, pauldrons, gauntlets, and greaves, mail hauberk, coif, and chausses, horse barding & chamfron
Rose:
white gold diamond ring with encased hair


In fact this is out of date. ****

OMG, I couldn't work this way, even after 30 yrs as an IT project manager!

 

[Nicole Wilson]

ERMAGERD thank you — I hate it when stuff like this happens! I try to mitigate this by keeping detailed inventories, but keeping that up-to-date is just as much of a battle! Here's an example:

Alyn:
sword, buck knife, runic iolite ring, silver African opal binding ring
Sanction:
leather satchel, leopard claw necklace, shatranj rukh piece, ground hornbill skull, 160 lb. block of magic glass, fulgurite twig, and Geoff’s wooden flute shards, Wickham’s severed head, ruined dark gray knee-length tunic with flared sleeves and tight-fitting vest of soft leather, fighting boots, suede cloak, woolen cloak, leather skullcap, Collins’ brass paperweight, Crownfort kettle helm, Stag’s Head pewter tankard, and Geoff’s truncheon, letter blade, and portrait, ruined leather armor, blankets, horse blankets, deer pelt, and leopard pelt
Rush:
Qattara Depression salt chunks, flint rocks, and linen char cloths, grapnel and rope; wood axe, Crownfort halberd and shield covered in crossbow bolts, Dryer & Vance’s hand hatchets, Vance’s buck knife, 12 self bow arrows, İskenderūn self bow, whetstones, pairs of tongs, tin pots (Alyn & Vance’s), torches, oil cloths, yew longbow, 10 longbow arrows, steel helmet, cuirass, pauldrons, gauntlets, and greaves, mail hauberk, coif, and chausses, horse barding & chamfron
Rose:
white gold diamond ring with encased hair


In fact this is out of date. ****

Wow, you have much more patience for that than I do. I keep character profiles (so I don't forget what they look like, if they have family, etc) but I definitely don't keep notes about what's happening. However, I create most of the story while I write my scene cards so it's a little easier to keep track when I'm just jotting notes down over a 2/3 week period.

Still. You wouldn't believe how many times my husband tells me "wasn't this guy in another state in the last chapter?" or the like.

 

[Emurelda]

ERMAGERD thank you — I hate it when stuff like this happens! I try to mitigate this by keeping detailed inventories, but keeping that up-to-date is just as much of a battle! Here's an example:

Alyn:
sword, buck knife, runic iolite ring, silver African opal binding ring
Sanction:
leather satchel, leopard claw necklace, shatranj rukh piece, ground hornbill skull, 160 lb. block of magic glass, fulgurite twig, and Geoff’s wooden flute shards, Wickham’s severed head, ruined dark gray knee-length tunic with flared sleeves and tight-fitting vest of soft leather, fighting boots, suede cloak, woolen cloak, leather skullcap, Collins’ brass paperweight, Crownfort kettle helm, Stag’s Head pewter tankard, and Geoff’s truncheon, letter blade, and portrait, ruined leather armor, blankets, horse blankets, deer pelt, and leopard pelt
Rush:
Qattara Depression salt chunks, flint rocks, and linen char cloths, grapnel and rope; wood axe, Crownfort halberd and shield covered in crossbow bolts, Dryer & Vance’s hand hatchets, Vance’s buck knife, 12 self bow arrows, İskenderūn self bow, whetstones, pairs of tongs, tin pots (Alyn & Vance’s), torches, oil cloths, yew longbow, 10 longbow arrows, steel helmet, cuirass, pauldrons, gauntlets, and greaves, mail hauberk, coif, and chausses, horse barding & chamfron
Rose:
white gold diamond ring with encased hair


In fact this is out of date. ****

I couldn't handle it like that. Why not draw out paper characters and draw items and cut em out...place them with the character as the story progresses. Am sorry, am more inclined to use primary school methods to help me visualise what is happening with 'stuff'.
Alternatively highlight the items that change hands and log the moving items only.

 

[Jason Byrne]

Wow, you have much more patience for that than I do. I keep character profiles (so I don't forget what they look like, if they have family, etc) but I definitely don't keep notes about what's happening. However, I create most of the story while I write my scene cards so it's a little easier to keep track when I'm just jotting notes down over a 2/3 week period.

Still. You wouldn't believe how many times my husband tells me "wasn't this guy in another state in the last chapter?" or the like.

Yup, I was thinking that — your scene cards are like the notes I have at the end of the story file. First I have notes for things I messed up, and need to go back and fix:
Add Rose’s horses into the Unseelie fight.

Then notes guiding me through upcoming parts of the story, the next things I'll be writing:
Even after learning magic, Alyn should go to draw the sword he didn’t bring with him first.

I keep about a page of choice words I want to remember:
Furtherance, Impediment, Redoubtable, Anomaly, Partition, Predominate, Sustained, Affix, Palpably, Purport, Prevail, Lavished, Dilatory, Judicious, Distinguish, Preparatory,

Then I keep how many pages I wrote day to day, so I can bring the log on my calendar up to date some day:
5-05-15 End of page 106 (8.25)
5-06-15 ½ down page 110 (3.5)
5-07-15 Just onto page 117 (6.5)
5-08-15 Just onto page 121 (4.0)
5-11-15 ½ down page 125 (4.5)
5-12-15 ½ down page 133 (8.0)

Then I have the possessions list.

Then a glossary of every merchant's shop, inn, city, river, and country named in the series thus far, both in the mortal plane and Arcadia:
Ablemen’s Guild - guild hall on Clifton high street
Abu Simbel - the cliff-carved temples of Ramses II and Nefertari, seven days’ sail south of the First Cataract
Acre - coastal city of the Kingdom of Jerusalem
Aegean Sea - easternmost region of the Mediusterra Sea
Yumurtalık - city on Gulf of İskenderūn, east of Magarsos and west of Dörtyol
Zambezi River - east-west flowing river in the south of Africa
Zerzura - legendary city without a location, said to be in the desert south of the Fatimid Caliphate fringes, hypothetically also the identity of an out-plane faerie colony at the northeastern shores of a lake near the headwaters of the Nher Alenyel

Then I keep a note with the current date:
December 12th, 1116

Then notes for myself:
The horses a knight keeps: 1 charger, 1 courser/destrier, 2 palfrey, 1 pack horse
Knight-bachelor, knight-banneret, baron, viscount, count, marquis, duke, king
Cordwainer - fine soft leather shoes, luxury footwear
1 ducat = 7/15 £ = ¢79.8 (in 1917 currency, or $14.83 in 2014)

Then I keep a list of every character introduced by book:
Named Characters Vol.1
Sir Alyn, Sir Geoffrey Forrester, Nessán, MacHenry, Count Vorace Bartholomew, Lord Sedgewick Trent,

Wars I made up:
Sterling War
War of Red March
Baron’s Wars

A list of every character's horses, and who they belong to:
Alyn:
Honour, Sanction, Thorne, Rush, Prosperous, Lourdes

Then unused names, I can grab in a hurry when a new and unexpected character walks into the story:
Bailey, Blower, Carter, Coulter, Dirk, Foreman, Godfrey, Jade, Johnston, Long, Quail, Rolfe, Smith, Strauss, Wade
Daundelyon, Epworth, Esmund, Mapilton, Maydestone, Rowlett, Tregonwell, Wellington, Wetherden, Veldon, Westlake

Orvis Wentworth
Alexander Price
Algernon Lockton
Aylmer Highgate
Unferth Rolleston

Unused Czech Names
Boleslav, Bronislav, Dalibor, Dobromil, Dobroslav, Miloslav, Miroslav, Nikola, Radomil, Radoslav, Radovan, Rostislav, Stanislav, Vladislav, Vlatislav, Vratislav, Zdislav

Unused faerie names:
Anon, Blazon, Fount, Knell, Lark, Massif, Palmyra, Phalanx, Rife, Spall, Verve, Writ, Zenith, Zephyr,
Cairn, Wraith

Unused stallion and mare names, color coded by whom might choose them:
Admiral, Aggravation, Arrogance, Bandit, Baron, Brigand, Courageous, Colonel,
Beauty, Benevolence, Circumstance, Cinder, Chance, Charmer, Clemency, Dancer,

Then quotes I might want to include:
“I do that often. I like my answers better than anyone else’s. Call me selfish; I think I’m just romantic, and a little manic.”
“I can… almost guarantee that my stupidity won’t be the death of me.”

All in all, I've got about 22 pages of notes, after the story file, supporting me.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

All in all, I've got about 22 pages of notes, after the story file, supporting me.

I take it this doesn't include the research notes?

As my character profiles are lengthy, and my books have at least 6 major characters each, I probably have ~50 pages of notes (not including research), though the actual information probably takes up about 10.

Research, I just print everything out I can find and then highlight important info, so I think I have another 30 or 40 in research.

 

[Marc Joan]

Yup, I was thinking that — your scene cards are like the notes I have at the end of the story file. First I have notes for things I messed up, and need to go back and fix
All in all, I've got about 22 pages of notes, after the story file, supporting me.

Wow! What a fantastic way of doing things. Very professional. I tend to scribble down scraps of dialogue or description as they occur to me, like a word-pantry, but nothing like what you do. But then I only do short stories, not collections of epic novels.

 

[Amber Zade]

Um.......am I the only one who knows James Patterson doesn't write his own books? I'm not sure what he is but he's not a writer. I tend to think he's an exploiter. Saying that he wrote 17 books before June is the equivalent of saying Harlequin put out 17 books before June. He's a publishing imprint more than a writer. I will never buy a book with his name on it - I am not sure why he hasn't been lynched in the town square. I think the only other 'author' I dislike more than James Patterson is Ayn Rand. Both of them traitors to their own art - one takes credit for other writers work and the other denies the existence of the art form they claim to be a disciple of.

 

[David Steele]

ERMAGERD thank you — I hate it when stuff like this happens! I try to mitigate this by keeping detailed inventories, but keeping that up-to-date is just as much of a battle! Here's an example:

Alyn:
sword, buck knife, runic iolite ring, silver African opal binding ring
Sanction:
leather satchel, leopard claw necklace, shatranj rukh piece, ground hornbill skull, 160 lb. block of magic glass, fulgurite twig, and Geoff’s wooden flute shards, Wickham’s severed head, ruined dark gray knee-length tunic with flared sleeves and tight-fitting vest of soft leather, fighting boots, suede cloak, woolen cloak, leather skullcap, Collins’ brass paperweight, Crownfort kettle helm, Stag’s Head pewter tankard, and Geoff’s truncheon, letter blade, and portrait, ruined leather armor, blankets, horse blankets, deer pelt, and leopard pelt
Rush:
Qattara Depression salt chunks, flint rocks, and linen char cloths, grapnel and rope; wood axe, Crownfort halberd and shield covered in crossbow bolts, Dryer & Vance’s hand hatchets, Vance’s buck knife, 12 self bow arrows, İskenderūn self bow, whetstones, pairs of tongs, tin pots (Alyn & Vance’s), torches, oil cloths, yew longbow, 10 longbow arrows, steel helmet, cuirass, pauldrons, gauntlets, and greaves, mail hauberk, coif, and chausses, horse barding & chamfron
Rose:
white gold diamond ring with encased hair


In fact this is out of date. ****

This is really impressive.
I find it much easier not to allow my characters to pick anything up

 

[Emurelda]

This is really impressive.
I find it much easier not to allow my characters to pick anything up

That's one way to keep track too.

 

[David Steele]

Okay - the original article which @Katie-Ellen Hazeldine posted (thank you, by the way) said:

PAY FOR PREFESSIONAL EDITING

So - question 1- Do you think being read by @Karen Gray and @Jason Byrne means I don't need to do so? Especially since I'm on draft 9 of my own editing?

Or is it essential for everybody in a 'no excuses' kind of way?

Question 2 - Anybody know any good but affordable services out there?

 

[Emurelda]

There is beta reader stage and then professional editing stage.
I would advise to get an editor.
Especially from an already published specialist in your genre.
Hearing some good reviews about Cornerstones
Bit pricey though.

 

[David Steele]

Yes, that's half the difficulty. realistically I think somebody like me could expect an e-book to return maybe about £100 in sales. And that's being seriously optimistic.
So, I invest £350 in editing.... Sigh. The world is a stupid place sometimes.

 

[Emurelda]

Yes, that's half the difficulty. realistically I think somebody like me could expect an e-book to return maybe about £100 in sales. And that's being seriously optimistic.
So, I invest £350 in editing.... Sigh. The world is a stupid place sometimes.

I guess from a short term business investment point of view then it makes little sense.

I personally don't see why, once you are happy with it and have your trusted readers say too, you can't submit.

 

[Emurelda]

I can't imagine that all submissions have had a professional gloss...there are thousands of books that agents and publishers get each week. If agents made it mandatory, like a licence, to have a MS certifiably edited then that industry will either boom or agents will no longer have a slush pile.

I assume the latter.

 

[David Steele]

Uh-uh. Although the article was about self publishing e-books. It was advice for people to "write a best seller" on their own.

 

[Emurelda]

Uh-uh. Although the article was about self publishing e-books. It was advice for people to "write a best seller" on their own.

Does editing nullify that? Professionally i mean.

 

[Emurelda]

Um.......am I the only one who knows James Patterson doesn't write his own books? I'm not sure what he is but he's not a writer. I tend to think he's an exploiter. Saying that he wrote 17 books before June is the equivalent of saying Harlequin put out 17 books before June. He's a publishing imprint more than a writer. I will never buy a book with his name on it - I am not sure why he hasn't been lynched in the town square. I think the only other 'author' I dislike more than James Patterson is Ayn Rand. Both of them traitors to their own art - one takes credit for other writers work and the other denies the existence of the art form they claim to be a disciple of.

It took a while for the penny to drop when I realised that Adam Blade doesn't exist
Ghost writers at least in that case are given credit.

Would it have been worse that another author takes the credit?
After all many celebrities do this and why not treat an author like a celebrity every now and again

 

[David Steele]

No. It's just that if you're going to be publishing through an agent, then in most cases, editing will be provided as part of that process. If you're self publishing, there is only you.
The dilemma is that if one is self publishing, one is unlikely to sell enough copies to return the investment on the editing.

Mind you, The Guardian are running creative writing courses for £500 That might be a good investment. On current market rates it should only take about seven book sales to make that back.

 

[Emurelda]

Self publishing had / has a bad reputation because many books do not read as well as traditionally published novels. Hence the need for professional editing regardless if you train as one.

There is something in the idea of pooling writers together to share an editor. Not sure how it would work exactly but maybe an annual nominal fee like £100 along with x numbers of writers to pay for a professional full time editor. You would need 200- 300 members to pay a decent wage. This would work best as part of an established agency or publishing house.

 

[Mark Odell]

My stuff is quite short at the moment. Mainly because I used to spend so much time writing manuscripts with no end in sight that I realised I needed more discipline in my writing and made them short. Now I'm worried that I'm too good at making stories short and need to take the time writing something of length again.

And trying to find an editor is hard too; I mostly had well meaning individuals rather than professionals.