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Self-Publishing A few things about indie and self-publishing

Mel L

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Thought I'd share a few takeaways from a workshop, ‘The Changing Face of Publishing’, I attended at the Geneva Writers Group (GWG) conference last weekend. It was given by April Eberhardt (Home - April Eberhardt Literary), a self-professed 'literary change agent'. She was very pro self-publishing for many of the same reasons evoked in some of the previous posts in this forum (languishing trad pub industry, opportunity for authors to make more money, etc.). Basically, her angle was that there is a valid path to publication for every writer. When I asked what she got out of that philosophy as an agent, she said it was 'literary philanthropy' for the satisfaction of helping writers get published. (Part of me can't help but question such noble motivations from anyone but @AgentPete but she did seem sincere!)

Anyway, here are a few ideas from my notes. For what they're worth!

- A couple of US indie presses to consider if you want to traditionally publish without an agent: Tin House (open to submissions a few times a year) and TCK Publishing

- Website for various publishing opportunities: New Pages Home

- Assisted self-publishing through a partner company for those who can afford the investment; she recommended Girl Friday Productions and Sea Script Company

- If you have a doubt about the legitimacy of any publisher, do your research and make sure it is vetted by the IBPA (https://www.ibpa-online.org/)

- Publishing scams are on the rise. You may want to check out Writer Beware:
“The Writer Beware website is a comprehensive source of information and warnings about bad practice in the publishing industry. We cover literary agents, publishers, editors, and more.” writerbeware.com

- Has anyone on Litopia ever considered creating a ‘Co-op’ press? This is a publishing model where several writers with similar interests get together to share costs and create a collective imprint to self-publish own work. Example: 5 Directions Five Directions Press - Who We Are

Write on!
 
Thought I'd share a few takeaways from a workshop, ‘The Changing Face of Publishing’, I attended at the Geneva Writers Group (GWG) conference last weekend. It was given by April Eberhardt (Home - April Eberhardt Literary), a self-professed 'literary change agent'. She was very pro self-publishing for many of the same reasons evoked in some of the previous posts in this forum (languishing trad pub industry, opportunity for authors to make more money, etc.). Basically, her angle was that there is a valid path to publication for every writer. When I asked what she got out of that philosophy as an agent, she said it was 'literary philanthropy' for the satisfaction of helping writers get published. (Part of me can't help but question such noble motivations from anyone but @AgentPete but she did seem sincere!)

Anyway, here are a few ideas from my notes. For what they're worth!

- A couple of US indie presses to consider if you want to traditionally publish without an agent: Tin House (open to submissions a few times a year) and TCK Publishing

- Website for various publishing opportunities: New Pages Home

- Assisted self-publishing through a partner company for those who can afford the investment; she recommended Girl Friday Productions and Sea Script Company

- If you have a doubt about the legitimacy of any publisher, do your research and make sure it is vetted by the IBPA (https://www.ibpa-online.org/)

- Publishing scams are on the rise. You may want to check out Writer Beware:
“The Writer Beware website is a comprehensive source of information and warnings about bad practice in the publishing industry. We cover literary agents, publishers, editors, and more.” writerbeware.com

- Has anyone on Litopia ever considered creating a ‘Co-op’ press? This is a publishing model where several writers with similar interests get together to share costs and create a collective imprint to self-publish own work. Example: 5 Directions Five Directions Press - Who We Are

Write on!
I like the co-op press model. Litopians have enough publishable material and expertise to create our own imprint.
 
I like the co-op press model. Litopians have enough publishable material and expertise to create our own imprint.
I'm only just beginning to consider the self-publishing adventure. But from what I gather, there would need to be a common thread in terms of genre, market or some other quality to create a co-op (or collective) press.
 
I also think a co op press is a good idea (needs a different name as co op is a supermarket chain in the UK). However, I'm out because I've no dosh.
Coop is also the name of a big supermarket chain in Switzerland! (But has nothing to do with the co-op concept as it's the one with the highest prices....)
 
I'd like to see more publishers emerge such as Storm Publishing and Bookouture. The downside to those two at the moment is they're too genre centric, like Joffe Books.

I be very open to a co-op group. I think it would make great sense to pool resources, maybe even employ a social media marketing expert who can create a shop window... The idea excites me. I'd also be happy to offer a free book to attract readers to that shop window...
 
I'm only just beginning to consider the self-publishing adventure. But from what I gather, there would need to be a common thread in terms of genre, market or some other quality to create a co-op (or collective) press.
If Litopia was the entry portal to a webring and everyone in Litopia could design their own website and join that webring (Forming their own constellations or collectives within that webring) then genre wouldn't have to be the criteria. Because most readers dont just read one genre. The criteria could be quality or cracking good story. The collective would have to decide their marketing strategy.



The problem is for most costs pooling resources doesnt work. If an editor charges so much per word to bring a manuscript to a publishable state then that is what it costs. Having 5 people in a collective doesnt change that. Kind of the same for Cover art etc. The only area where pooling costs works is marketing. As Tim suggests pooling resources to hire a marketer to advertise the collective would work.

The collective would have to be a self-selected group of likeminded writers willing to work together. To take it one step further they could kickstart for the funds for everyone to get a trad publisher kind of makeover. As always this is easier to do with genre because you have a block of readers already.
 
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Sorry for some reason texts were doubling up on that post.

But I wanted to add that another possibility would be for someone to form a collective around offering their Labour instead of a
Capital investment. In other words work instead of dosh. If they are good at doing what Roz Morris does they could offer to read, edit and whip manuscripts into shape. Maybe they go out and find someone with a background in illustration or advertising to help with cover art. Then they do what an agent does. Find people they bet on to be commercial in the current zeitgeist and then invite them into the Collective.

This is important because to work there has to be money coming in to keep the collective going successfully. If the Collective choses correctly and that writer has some success they pay the agent's ten percent to the Collective. Lets say one of the writers never takes off.

They owe 10 percent of nothing. The Collective takes the hit just as an agent does when they select a writer who doesnt take off.
So this cant just be friends who like each other banding together. Each Collective is building a brand.

Why do you need a Brand? Because that is what you need to draw readers. Readers get more than quality insurance from being loyal to a brand. They get identity. Connection. This is the basis of why genre works.

Which brings me to the final thought. if Litopia would be in a sense a webring of self publishing collectives it would be important to attract not just writers but readers. It would behoove anyone in Litopia to spread the word oj social media and everywhere, "Come to
Litopia for fresh and original new stories from exciting new writers." And of course that promise would have to be kept.


This is a bit a riff on Royal Road. Especially if the individual websites can offer writing samples or even sell digital books.
 
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If the Collective choses correctly

I'm not sure that writers would be good (part-time) agents and choose books primarily based on commercial pottential. Especially if it was not limited to their favorite (sub)genre. It would also take time to read the submissions and discuss them. And to keep up to date on trends and sales stats. Again, especially if this was across genres.

Wouldn't it more practical for a group of writers to publish an anthology together, and maybe move on from there if it found an audience?
 
I'm not sure that writers would be good (part-time) agents and choose books primarily based on commercial pottential. Especially if it was not limited to their favorite (sub)genre. It would also take time to read the submissions and discuss them. And to keep up to date on trends and sales stats. Again, especially if this was across genres.

Wouldn't it more practical for a group of writers to publish an anthology together, and maybe move on from there if it found an audience?
The thing is how do you promote your anthology so it gets readers? The reality is it's a foregone conclusion it wont have a readership. It's basically a Vanity Press model. Apex is a magazine with established readers-from before publishing collapsed. They promote heavily and still probably most of their money probably comes from writers wanting to get published in an anthology.

I think the reality that Pete keeps trying to get across to us is that writers are going to have to innovate and be creative -boldly go where no writer has gone before to reach readers. The publishing world is lilliputian compared to what it was even a decade ago.

These ideas are just conversation starters at the moment. If anything becomes concrete it isnt not going to be for everyone. Like self-publishing is not for everyone. But Litopia if it is to survive has to evolve. A webring could mean a more level playing field. And Litopia could become a place where readers and writers connect outside of the current publishing world. Let's call it Barrataria and think of Pete as Jean Lafitte.
 
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What we need is a collective shop window. An anthology isn't the answer. Who's interested in anthologies these days. Readers want a choice of books.

Ensuring those books that are of a professional standard is a big challenge.

But attracting readers to that shop window is the really big challenge. Free or cheap books is one way and even then marketing the shop window is a full time job. - I wish I had hair so I could pull it out!!! :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

My initial thinking is: I have a novel series YA/SciFi - two complete, working on the third. If I do go down the self-publishing route, then I plan to give the first one away for free or for 99p - I think on amazon you can have free windows and the cheapest you can sell a novel for is 99p. I also have a thriller ready to publish and would like to add my current self-published books to the shop window, so we already see it filling up a bit - It's all about me okay! :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing::rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

But, seriously, if I do go down the self-pubbed route again, in my experience thus far, it would be better to create a shop window as a collective because then readers we attract will have choice.

I will commit to two hours marketing a day and if we all committed two hours we should create some visibility. I'm not against pooling resources to employ a professional - possibly that comes later when the shop window is selling books? Personally, I would be happy to put some money in a kitty now for a professional.. I'm considering employing a professional's services anyway...

If we work together as a co-op, would we need to create the shop window or could the shop window be a part of Litopia with the Litopia brand - that would be a question for @AgentPete - or do we buy a domain name and set up our own? I own the walespress.com and lifeisart.co.uk domains and am happy to buy another.

With regard sales: I would suggest all sales links to books are to the books Amazon page. That way no problems with accounting, complaints and returns....

Just stuff to think about.
 
- A couple of US indie presses to consider if you want to traditionally publish without an agent: Tin House (open to submissions a few times a year) and TCK Publishing
Tin House is here in Portland Oregon (I'm across the river). They are a very highly respected publisher of both established and emerging authors and accept select works in literary fiction, non-fiction, and poetry. They also publish a quality literary magazine as well as present craft education workshops.
 
I see the idea of a collective imprint has its enthusiasts! Thinking about it, while I do believe that some writers (sadly not me) are good at entrepreneurship, I can't see how such a collective could be linked to Litopia from a brand or marketing POV.
Litopia is writers helping writers become better at their craft, which does not mean buying, selling or promoting each other's books. That, IMO, would defeat the purpose of this group and create a conflict of interest.
However, if a group of Litopians, with a shared passion/interest for a particular type of writing, were to create a spin-off group with its own imprint, why not? As @TimRees points out, self publishing costs money, time and effort. Sharing some of those resources makes sense but only if (Big If) there is a common thread for readers.
 
I see the idea of a collective imprint has its enthusiasts! Thinking about it, while I do believe that some writers (sadly not me) are good at entrepreneurship, I can't see how such a collective could be linked to Litopia from a brand or marketing POV.
Litopia is writers helping writers become better at their craft, which does not mean buying, selling or promoting each other's books. That, IMO, would defeat the purpose of this group and create a conflict of interest.
However, if a group of Litopians, with a shared passion/interest for a particular type of writing, were to create a spin-off group with its own imprint, why not? As @TimRees points out, self publishing costs money, time and effort. Sharing some of those resources makes sense but only if (Big If) there is a common thread for readers.
I totally agree.
 
I see the idea of a collective imprint has its enthusiasts! Thinking about it, while I do believe that some writers (sadly not me) are good at entrepreneurship, I can't see how such a collective could be linked to Litopia from a brand or marketing POV.
Litopia is writers helping writers become better at their craft, which does not mean buying, selling or promoting each other's books. That, IMO, would defeat the purpose of this group and create a conflict of interest.
However, if a group of Litopians, with a shared passion/interest for a particular type of writing, were to create a spin-off group with its own imprint, why not? As @TimRees points out, self publishing costs money, time and effort. Sharing some of those resources makes sense but only if (Big If) there is a common thread for readers.
I would just add the biggest obstacle I see is quality control. There is a big difference in quality between trad published books and self. Come on. We all know that. I have not yet found a self published book that I would read on past the first 1k words. ( OK I know I'm picky but realistically so are most readers.) More than marketing I want my self-published book to be as good as it would be if it was trad published. To me this is really the gap that writers have to find a way to fill.

In the very near future trad publishing is not going to be there to pluck you out of the slush pile and give you a makeover so that readers really want to read you. The tiny opening is closing. Think of writers as Indiana Jones racing to slide out of the cave with his prize before he is crushed. That is where new writers are today.

The future I see is bleak unless writers find a way to get trad publisher good wo trad publishers paying for it. Also they need to create their own direct conduits to readers. That could create a renaissance of new readers instead of the withering away of reading altogether.

I've written advertising. There is no 100 percent sure-fire method of selling anything. So no matter who you hire to do your marketing-they are not wizards. You can sell icebox's to eskimo's. But if the icebox's you sell dont work -you dont sell many. For advertising to make you money you need a good product that does what you say it does and that readers just didn't know they needed or wanted before you told them about it.

If you can create a brand that makes selling easier because buyers expect consistency from a brand. So consistency is the first requirement. What can Litopia offer consistently? Not quality because we are new authors as Mel says trying to become better. How about what OFF OFF Broadway provides theatregoers? Raw, talent experimenting with ideas. And hopefully out of all that experimentation emerges some On Broadway worthy stuff. That's the best marketing angle I see.

So imagine a Litopia Webring of constellations made up of individual and branded collective websites. Think about why readers go to Royal Road. They want to be part of the creative process. They want to see something new and different. They want to connect with writers and try their own hand at story.
Would a Litopia webring offer them the same thing?
 
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I disagree about lack of quality in self-published books as a cover-all statement. There are some very good self-published books and some poorly written trad published ones, but unless you know a self-published book/author is good, it's a bigger gamble to spend your money on than going for a trad published book. That will always be the case because anyone with the uploading know-how can self-publish on Amazon and other places. So, importantly, an author or collective needs to make a name for themselves as a good quality sure thing.
 
I disagree about lack of quality in self-published books as a cover-all statement. There are some very good self-published books and some poorly written trad published ones, but unless you know a self-published book/author is good, it's a bigger gamble to spend your money on than going for a trad published book. That will always be the case because anyone with the uploading know-how can self-publish on Amazon and other places. So, importantly, an author or collective needs to make a name for themselves as a good quality sure thing.
I'm sure there are Hannah, but as you say they are not consistent enough to find. I may have kissed a lot of frogs before I found my prince, but I enjoy kissing. I have not enjoyed searching thru self-published books. I'd rather read a classic.

So yes I think we come to the same conclusion. Quality control to establish a brand is even more important than genre. So how do people wo the resources of a publishing company afford editors, cover art etc? That is the eye of the brainstorm.

One answer I get is a Kickstarter to raise money for the collective to pay for all.

So the next question is what do you offer people to make them want to invest in your kickstarter?
 
I don't want to be a negative pigeon among here (RE collective) but I can see lots of probs with a collective. I can see that a collective can be tempting at the face of it. But I don't think it's as easy and as sweet as it seems and would be full of pitfalls which I think could cause a lot of discord. It's a nice fluffy idea, which I too like in principal (and would consider), but it's also a business because writing is a business. We want to publish books which sell. We want to make money from our books. It would depend on what exactly the collective is, i.e. a collective publishing company, or a collective bookshop, or...?

The biggest issue is the money (isn't it always?). I'm assuming everyone would invest into a pot (in other words everyone pays for everyone to be published - everyone in the collective will be published). That means the royalties would have to be shared, otherwise those who put money in won't get anything out until THEIR book is published at some point down the line (maybe 3 years later when it's their turn. Not sure I'd want to wait). It would become very unfair to those who are A) slow at writing, and B) those who's books don't sell.

As for the investment into the collective. Marketing is a pot with no bottom. The investments into the collective would need to be more than £10 each per year because each book would need the SAME amount of money to be marketed, and even £100 per book isn't much to get it out there. The group would have to publish all books, or else it would be unfair to the writer who joins and give money into the pot. So, basically, each member would have to put the amount of money in that they would for their own book anyway.

The other problem would come from the amount of members in the collective. I'm assuming authors would share the royalties. How many authors would belong to a collective? Anything more than 10 and the proceeds of the books would be watered down. 10 members means 10% of the royalties / profit each. 100 members and we all get 1 % of our investment. That's 1% of OUR OWN books. Ok, so the percentage of one's own book could be set higher, but now it becomes an accounting headache. The money we put in would be an investment into a business; the business of our books. Books would have to sell at huge volumes for us to actually make money out of it.

If you now put it on Kickstarter, the people who invest (readers presumably) will want something back for it which will come out of the profits. They may pledge a tenner, a hundred. What would they get for that? Free books worth their pledge presumably. So basically the collective has an initial cash injection but we give them the money back (or am I misunderstanding Kickstarter?).

When I finished my first book, I was full of optimism. It's the best thing ever, right, I want it out there. I could easily have joined a collective, put money in and ... When I look at my book now, I realise it is total SH*TE and will never sell, no matter how much editing anyone does. Now, if I were new to a collective I would expect it to be published because I've put money in. But would the rest of the group want to do the marketing for it and to essentially give their money towards it? If we don't love something, it's hard to market it. That's why agents say they "didn't love the book enough to champion it". There would be folk who will not want to put my rubbish book onto their social media, nor put effort into writing me a blog post about it for a blog tour they're doing. Just ask yourself: would you honestly spend several hours of work into marketing something you really don't like? Or would you think "I'll sit this one out"? Would you mention/recommend it during your own book tour? What if that book is highly controversial, a story about something extremely wrong? That author might already be a member of the collective and has only just written it. Now what? Who would decide, then tell that author, no thanks? But they've paid their membership. It can be difficult to make decisions among 3 or 4 people, but a collective might never get anything done.

Also by marketing others, we now give ourselves a load more work. Does everyone have the time to help market everyone else's book? 50 members means 50 marketing sessions per member. That's a lot of time one would have to spend along a day job, taking time away from writing. Would the returns justify it? Soon marketing of all those books would need outsourcing to someone who just does that, meaning the costs go up and the profits get squeezed.

I have a mini-collective with @Jonny in that we have co-written 2 books and are about to finish our 3rd. Our 2 books are self-published on amazon. We share the royalties, so the X percent the zon gives us (can't remember the number) is now halved. Our collective a deux works because we're friends and we trust each other. But that's the thing: trust. We both have access to our KDP account. We can BOTH see the sales. We had to list a bank account to receive the royalties. We listed mine. When we get our quarterly payments (worthy of retirement in the Swiss Alps), the money goes into MY account. I then immediately transfer the money to him. He has to trust me to do it ASAP. If I wasn't as efficient as I am, he could potentially wait three years before he gets his £1.75 or whatever it is after doing a lot of nagging. In a group the person in charge of the money would have to do several money transfers to many people (not a prob but a hassle and potentially another headache when the tax man looks). If now that was across the continents you have to start doing international money transfers. It's all very do-able of course, but potentially a pain in the posterior.

In a group there will always be some who do sod all and yet expect to receive everything. It's nice idea to all work together happily, but it won't be like that when it's a bigger group. It's just humanity. A collective could suddenly get a very toxic place and someone would have to leave. Would they now they get the money back? Do they still get royalties of the books they've previously invested in?

We all know that some books will never sell. Just because it's self-published doesn't mean it will sell. A book/author might not be up to it. But what if that author wants to be in the collective? It would need a 'vetting' (wrong word) process. And now someone needs to decide. If that happens on here, a member here would be rejected for their book. Is that the spirit of Litopia? I'm not sure it is. I might write a book and the rest of Litopia collective would now have to tell me they don't think it's good enough. It now becomes elitist.

People could potentially put money / work in and get nothing for it.

I'm not against a collective as such. I would do it with select few people. But I think it can only work if it's a group of abs max 5 people who totally trust each other and who are at the same stage in their writing life. A few friends starting a publishing company is fine and great and I would. But it would have to turn into a "traditional" publishing company eventually over which only those friends have control.
 
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This is really one of the most important topics in publishing at the moment, although not generally recognised as such by many / most folk in the business. I suppose they’ve got their own immediate problems to worry about :)

However, we touch on this in Huddles almost every week now. My own thinking is evolving as much as anyone else’s, and I appreciate the ability to brainstorm informally and (in confidence) with like-minded people, most of whom are far smarter than me :)

One thing I do want to chuck into the pot for consideration here, tho...

It’s extremely hard to launch a successful self-published book - cold, from scratch.

Yes, it does happen, and yes, hens sometimes have teeth… maybe…

But here’s another (less obvious) insight: it’s also extremely hard to launch a successful traditionally-published book, especially for a new author. I’d go as far as to say that most first-time traditionally-published authors are not very well-published. Nor are most mid-list authors, if it comes to that. Folk don’t often talk about this, but if we’re honest, we have to admit it. Traditional publishing does a good job for most lead titles books. But for others further down the pecking order... not so much.

As a generalisation, the most successfully-published writers – traditionally-published or self-published – are those who have a platform.

You can see plenty of examples of this. EG those mid-list authors who built up a readership through traditional publishing, then crossed over to self-pub, taking their readers with them. In this case, they leveraged the platform created by trad publishing (genre writers have done this quite successfully, especially those whose names begin with “Brandon”).

So…

The key to commercial success is either right book/right time (lots of examples of this, I’ve had a few myself) or build your own platform (slower, hard work, but you own your own readers). Litopia can/should help with both, I feel.
 
I appreciate what you are saying Barbara and believe me in talking about these things I do not underestimate the difficulties. Which is why I see a limited -BUT crucial role for Litopia and Pete. If Litopia can provide a level field for creatives to meet-then there is a chance that solutions will evolve. Creativity will flourish.

I'm not against a collective as such. I would do it with select few people. But I think it can only work if it's a group of abs max 5 people who totally trust each other and who are at the same stage in their writing life. A few friends starting a publishing company is fine and great and I would. But it would have to turn into a "traditional" publishing company eventually over which only those friends have control.

If by "trad publishing company" you mean what you and Jonny have then Ok. But I think we have to put new names onto these things because the reality is trad publishing is dying-perhaps dead. So if what you are saying is trad publishing is dead-long live trad publishing I can agree.

Obviously any "constellation" as Pete calls them has to be self-selected and be able to make decisions.

But we live in a time when there needs to be new conduits for readers and writers to connect directly. Things like Book Tok are already evolving to meet this need. Can Litopia come up with a way to make readers a part of the process of making writers better?


Initially I see no way of raising the money to pay for editing, covers etc except Kickstarting. At that point then yes the collective is basically a business. To Kickstart you have to deliver on what you promise investors. That may or not be successful. It will depend on all the factors that trad publishers and agents have to get right to make money.

What a Litopia web ring would provide then is the "shop window" as Tim said. And the gravitational pull to bring in readers.

I cant see sharing profits working for a "constellation." I can see the same arrangement made as with agents. A 10 percent fee paid back to the collective. If for whatever reason one of the writers chosen doesnt have sales -they owe 10 percent of nothing. Otherwise you eat what you kill.

But here we are talking exclusively about writers who want to make money. Then all the business factors matter. I think there needs to be a word here for what a webring could do for those who are not so interested in being commercial but would like to connect w readers.

I think this is a very important part of creating an "off Off Broadway" atmosphere at Litopia. There are readers attracted to that kind of writing just as there are playgoers who go to raw unpolished performances. But first there has to be a venue where writers can connect with that audience.
 
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If by "trad publishing company" you mean what you and Jonny have then Ok.
No, that's not what I mean. I was talking about a collective having to potentially morph into a publishing company which functions like a trad publisher if they want to take on books written by non-collective members; as in become a business that functions in a more traditional way to handle books by non members: with an editorial team, marketing team, acquisitions (is that the right word?) to select the books etc. to make sure what goes out is of a standard.
 
I don't want to be a negative pigeon among here but I can see lots of probs with a collective.
The biggest problem being...human nature. I was invited to join an ahead-of-its-time indie publishing collective over a decade ago – we were professional editors, a marketing guru and a commissioning editor. We did very well. It was great. The only absolute rule then was please don't take all the free editing and free marketing advice, and free everything else from the professionals and then turn around and say Oh I don't think I'll publish with the collective after all; I'm sending it out to trad publishers...which is exactly what one member did (unsuccessfully, it turned out). Trust fell apart after that.

I agree with everything Barbara says. Everyone is happy to agree at the beginning of this kind of venture, but when selfish motivation and rampant ego surface, some people won't do what's best for the collective – any collective. They'll do what they think is best for themselves and their creative "vision", and sod the collective. It's a fantastic idea – so is world peace. I wonder how that's going.

Yes, the publishing world is changing (thank God), and yes, lots of different ideas will rise to help writers, and some will take hold. Maybe collectives are still worth trying, for people less cynical – and tbh less gut-wrenchingly disappointed than I was. I wish you well with anything you try. But I wouldn't touch the idea with a 50-foot disinfected, irradiated, vancomycin-treated bargepole. :)
 
No, that's not what I mean. I was talking about a collective having to potentially morph into a publishing company which functions like a trad publisher if they want to take on books written by non-collective members; as in become a business that functions in a more traditional way to handle books by non members: with an editorial team, marketing team, acquisitions (is that the right word?) to select the books etc. to make sure what goes out is of a standard.
I dont see the disagreement. That is exactly what you would have to do to be successful as a kickstarter. But in a micro way. Staying small. Blue Moose Publishing is basically a husband and wife team working out of their garage. Why do they need to expand from that? They are successful small. Most business's fail by trying to get too big.
 
I dont see the disagreement. That is exactly what you would have to do to be successful as a kickstarter. But in a micro way. Staying small. Blue Moose Publishing is basically a husband and wife team working out of their garage. Why do they need to expand from that? They are successful small. Most business's fail by trying to get too big.
It isn't one. That's what I was saying (in my Swissglish ways). I was just trying to say that if a few people sat down together to help each other, the buiz would have to become that kind of model to make it successful, as opposed to 100 members whith everyone doing a bit of everything.
 
It isn't one. That's what I was saying (in my Swissglish ways). I was just trying to say that if a few people sat down together to help each other, the buiz would have to become that kind of model to make it successful, as opposed to everyone doing a bit of everything.
Ok but what I am saying is that the constellations have to be more than people "helping each other." Perhaps this is why Pete uses the word "Constellation" to connote less communist collective and more contractural obligation.

A business model is exactly right.
 
The biggest problem being...human nature. I was invited to join an ahead-of-its-time indie publishing collective over a decade ago – we were professional editors, a marketing guru and a commissioning editor. We did very well. It was great. The only absolute rule then was please don't take all the free editing and free marketing advice, and free everything else from the professionals and then turn around and say Oh I don't think I'll publish with the collective after all; I'm sending it out to trad publishers...which is exactly what one member did (unsuccessfully, it turned out). Trust fell apart after that.

I agree with everything Barbara says. Everyone is happy to agree at the beginning of this kind of venture, but when selfish motivation and rampant ego surface, some people won't do what's best for the collective – any collective. They'll do what they think is best for themselves and their creative "vision", and sod the collective. It's a fantastic idea – so is world peace. I wonder how that's going.

Yes, the publishing world is changing (thank God), and yes, lots of different ideas will rise to help writers, and some will take hold. Maybe collectives are still worth trying, for people less cynical – and tbh less gut-wrenchingly disappointed than I was. I wish you well with anyting you try. But I wouldn't touch the idea with a 50-foot disinfected, irradiated, vancomycin-treated bargepole. :)



Human nature does definitely swing both ways. But I think in what is being discussed nothing is free. And one of the problems on the table is exactly that problem.
Because Litopia, the space we are using now, is not free. it needs to be provided for into the future if we are going to continue to have it.

And what I see as most problematic in your post is the word "free." This is why you you can sell things you cant give away. Value added. And dare I say the word-contracts

Also the word trust. I mistrust it. B Franklin said , "If we dont hang together surely we will hang separately." That has to be the glue holding any collective together. And I would say a lot of that glue would be made from the reality that trad publishing is not available.
 
And I would say a lot of that glue would be made from the reality that trad publishing is not available.
For me, If the glue holding them together is that they can't get published traditionally, then that's not trust, it's desperation. So many writers are so desperate to see their work published, they'll try anything. And, again, I truly wish them the best of luck, whatever their reasons for joining any collective. Contracts – I don't have any trust in most of them either. Try enforcing them without paying legal fees. Perhaps the only answer is for writers who can afford it to join the collectives where nothing is free, and writers who are poor (i.e. most of us) to find another way. As with everything, life is much easier when there's money in the bank.
 
And this

Ok but what I am saying is that the constellations have to be more than people "helping each other." ... .

A business model is exactly right.
is partly why (to me at least) it doesn't sit right for Litopia to be a publishing collective.

I don't think it fits the Litopia ethos. Litopia is a colony of writers for writers. For ALL writers. At whatever stage the writer is. Litopia as a publishing company/collective would have to be selective about work, and then ... some will not fit. Then it becomes exclusive.
 
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