Help Please! 2 Concerns about the Litopia Method

[Still Waters]

I just finally read through the document about the Litopia Method and I have some questions or concerns about it.

My first question is—how can you write down what you feel if the writing is so unclear you can’t understand what the writer means--and according to the method, you're not supposed to comment on the mechanics of the language? Doesn’t this happen on here?

I understand the idea about writing what your emotional reaction is, and not wasting time on linguistic technicalities, but as a translator, proofreader and editor of texts written by non-native English speakers, and native English speakers, writing sentences that are so unclear you don’t understand them is a common phenomenon. If you don’t understand a sentence, all you will feel is confusion, and not necessarily confusion intended by the author.

My second concern is—most of what I write is non-fiction. I don’t want people to turn off their brains (suspension of disbelief, something I often find in scientific writings and I call "yarn-spinning," because it turns the reader's brain off so the reader will blindly accept whatever debatable notion the scientist is leading up to) when they’re reading most of the things I write. I am not usually writing to make a person feel something, but rather to increase their understanding, or open their minds to ideas they’ve never been exposed to before. How could my non-fiction writings benefit from this method of critique? I don't think most of my writings are suitable...

What do people have against writing non-fiction? Are there websites that focus on writing non-fiction? Because I’ve only found websites that are concerned with fiction. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place for the help I need... I don't know.

 

[BrianY]

In my experience, first as a basic member and now as a full member, there is no bias against non fiction at Litopia. There isn't much non fiction, but it's welcome when it's offered.

 

[Bloo]

Where is the Litopia Method doc? I've...um...never read it

 

[Vagabond Heart]

If you're struggling with unclear passages, here's some sentences you could use in critiquing...

"This confused me"
"I don't know what this means"
"I think you're referring to XXXX here, but I'm not sure. Could you make it clearer?"

Because your goal, as a Litopian giving feedback, is to translate the experience you had reading the piece with the intent that this will be helpful to the author.

As for writing pieces of non-fiction, we could give you feedback that might look like...

"This is both clearly expressed and interesting. Well done."
"I got a big bogged-down here. Would it work to break this into smaller sentences?"
"I really engaged with this and wanted to know more. Could you expand, perhaps?"

Does that help at all?

 

[RK Wallis]

Writing non-fiction still needs a voice and clarity, so you're definitely in the right place The Litopia method is a big (hard) shift in thinking, but IMHO it's the best way to service a book. It's takes ego out of the equation and just looks at comprehension. So ask yourself, what question can you ask that would give the book better clarity? An example from my writing and @Claire G's comment (sorry, I write fiction and it's not cool to post someone else's writing):

"In a few strides, he’s at my side and snags my hood, wrenching my ringlets"[CG1] .

---

[CG1]Dark? Blonde? I’d like to be able to picture visualise her appearance more.

Now, I don't have to follow Claire's suggestions, but what I will do is ask what can I add to better help readers visualise and will that serve the book?

So you don't say this comma is out of place or correct grammar. It's the writer's choice if they want to break rules and it's their responsibility to learn grammar fundamentals. It's not your job to "correct" like a teacher.

And don't forget to mention what you love or makes you laugh or cry. It helps the writer figure out what hits a nerve.

But, remember, you're human, and this is new to you. The above is the goal and we're always striving for goals. None of us is perfect, just write what works for you at the time

 

[AgentPete]

I just finally read through the document about the Litopia Method and I have some questions or concerns about it.

Just try it. It works equally well for NF as for fiction.

My first question is—how can you write down what you feel if the writing is so unclear you can’t understand what the writer means--

Then that's what you say.

and according to the method, you're not supposed to comment on the mechanics of the language? Doesn’t this happen on here?

Happens a lot.

I understand the idea about writing what your emotional reaction is, and not wasting time on linguistic technicalities, but as a translator, proofreader and editor of texts written by non-native English speakers, and native English speakers, writing sentences that are so unclear you don’t understand them is a common phenomenon. If you don’t understand a sentence, all you will feel is confusion, and not necessarily confusion intended by the author.

Then that's what you report.

I am not usually writing to make a person feel something,

Actually, you are.

Successful fiction and non-fiction both rely their ability to arouse appropriate emotional response in the reader. Pause for a moment, think about every possible writing scenario you might envision, and you’ll realise this is so.

but rather to increase their understanding, or open their minds to ideas they’ve never been exposed to before.

So how does your reader feel if you succeed in doing that?

Conversely, how do they feel if you don’t?

What do people have against writing non-fiction?

I don’t know where you get that idea.

I personally love non-fiction, it was my own writing area. I know its power and potential.

Are there websites that focus on writing non-fiction? Because I’ve only found websites that are concerned with fiction. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place for the help I need... I don't know.

My unvarnished advice to you, and I suspect you’re not going to take it, is to fully commit to what Litopia offers. In particular, start coming to Huddles. Absent that, you’re just skimming the surface.

Anyway, good luck.

 

[Pamela Jo]

I just finally read through the document about the Litopia Method and I have some questions or concerns about it.

My first question is—how can you write down what you feel if the writing is so unclear you can’t understand what the writer means--and according to the method, you're not supposed to comment on the mechanics of the language? Doesn’t this happen on here?

I understand the idea about writing what your emotional reaction is, and not wasting time on linguistic technicalities, but as a translator, proofreader and editor of texts written by non-native English speakers, and native English speakers, writing sentences that are so unclear you don’t understand them is a common phenomenon. If you don’t understand a sentence, all you will feel is confusion, and not necessarily confusion intended by the author.

My second concern is—most of what I write is non-fiction. I don’t want people to turn off their brains (suspension of disbelief, something I often find in scientific writings and I call "yarn-spinning," because it turns the reader's brain off so the reader will blindly accept whatever debatable notion the scientist is leading up to) when they’re reading most of the things I write. I am not usually writing to make a person feel something, but rather to increase their understanding, or open their minds to ideas they’ve never been exposed to before. How could my non-fiction writings benefit from this method of critique? I don't think most of my writings are suitable...

What do people have against writing non-fiction? Are there websites that focus on writing non-fiction? Because I’ve only found websites that are concerned with fiction. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place for the help I need... I don't know.

Many of us on here used to make a living writing nonfiction. All of us have had to adjust to writing fiction. It is a different audience and different expectation. You really have to chose which you want to do.
The methodology for learning to write fiction is different than nonfiction. With fiction the main concern is STORY, what it is, how to convey it, how to construct it. Nonfiction you are selling facts/information. Fiction you are selling emotion.
So I'm not sure what you are asking. You want a forum that discusses how to write nonfiction? You want to learn how to write fiction?

 

[Pamela Jo]

I just finally read through the document about the Litopia Method and I have some questions or concerns about it.

My first question is—how can you write down what you feel if the writing is so unclear you can’t understand what the writer means--and according to the method, you're not supposed to comment on the mechanics of the language? Doesn’t this happen on here?

I understand the idea about writing what your emotional reaction is, and not wasting time on linguistic technicalities, but as a translator, proofreader and editor of texts written by non-native English speakers, and native English speakers, writing sentences that are so unclear you don’t understand them is a common phenomenon. If you don’t understand a sentence, all you will feel is confusion, and not necessarily confusion intended by the author.

My second concern is—most of what I write is non-fiction. I don’t want people to turn off their brains (suspension of disbelief, something I often find in scientific writings and I call "yarn-spinning," because it turns the reader's brain off so the reader will blindly accept whatever debatable notion the scientist is leading up to) when they’re reading most of the things I write. I am not usually writing to make a person feel something, but rather to increase their understanding, or open their minds to ideas they’ve never been exposed to before. How could my non-fiction writings benefit from this method of critique? I don't think most of my writings are suitable...

What do people have against writing non-fiction? Are there websites that focus on writing non-fiction? Because I’ve only found websites that are concerned with fiction. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place for the help I need... I don't know.

Many of us on here used to make a living writing nonfiction. All of us have had to adjust to writing fiction. It is a different audience and different expectation.
The methodology for learning to write fiction is different than nonfiction. With fiction the main concern is STORY, what it is, how to convey it, how to construct it.
Nonfiction you are selling facts/information. I agree with Pete that unless you are writing for an audience that has no choice but to buy and read your text then you need to hook and interest your reader. And that is ALWAYS done through emotion.
You can learn a lot in Litopia if you want to learn to sell what you write on a commercial platform. If that is not your aim-then the site is probably not suited to you.
The whole point of critiques is not to be "right" or "wrong" but to let the writer know the extent they have reached the reader and the readers first reactions. Think of it as playing a musical instrument. Once you've practiced your piece alone you need an actual audience to let you know if they recognise what you've done as music.

 

[Hannah F]

I write fiction (though I have written a couple of memoir shorts - which require emotional impact.) I read both fiction and non-fiction. In non-fiction, I have read academic texts for which emotion is not necessary but the best I have read (in the fields of zoology, animal behaviour, and psychology) do manage to evoke emotion which makes the facts stick. I have read journalistic style non-fiction (e.g. Oak Ash and Thorn by Peter Fiennes; The Seabird's Cry by Adam Nicolson) - I have walked with the author, seen through their eyes, smelled what they smelled, enjoyed their joy, grimaced at their pain. I have touched the moist moss, heard the wind over the dunes. I have held my breath as I rooted for an individual's survival in the precarious balance of life. I have cried at destruction.
It depends what you write, but if you want your words to stick or to create a lasting memory, emotion will turn people's brains on all the more.

 

[Barbara]

I am not usually writing to make a person feel something, but rather to increase their understanding, or open their minds to ideas they’ve never been exposed to before.

Non-fiction should still 'entertain' in some way. I don't mean in a 'haha' way, but in a way that means the reader will want to spend their time, reading your work. It's your job as the non-fic author to get your readers to sit down and read your work to the last page. It's your job to open their minds to receive your new ideas, AND to keep that interest or else the reader is off and will close the book for good. People are quick to shut a book - any kind of writing. Keeping readers reading is a technique which doesn't really differ from fiction writing.

How could my non-fiction writings benefit from this method of critique?

A Litopia reader will tell you when they've lost interest. That's usually the moment alpha readers would close the book for good.

Also, a fiction author is perfectly capable of giving crit on non-fiction. Fiction authors are still general readers (we don't live in a cave, creating stories). Actually, I dare say that receiving crit from fiction writers can only be a good thing for non-fic authors (and vice versa, of course), as we have experience in 'communicating with our readers' (writing is communication) in a different way which might benefit non-fic writers. Fiction and non-fiction authors have many skills they can share and learn from.

One thing which hasn't been said by anyone yet, I don't think, is that the Litopia way of giving feedback is based on friendships. I have made several close friends here (and I don't make friends easily). We show work to each other, as well as socialise here or away from the site. We support each other. I can trust them with my work and they can trust me with theirs. I can try something new and take risks because I won't be judged. We read each other's work with care and kindness and give each other our honest thoughts. We sometimes brainstorm ideas, and we have fab discussions about our work.

Because we've built that friendship, I know that the crit I get from them isn't an attack on me or my writing, but is simply a bit of tough love, intended to help make my work better and help me grow as a writer, and vice versa. I can send them a re-write or two and not worry that they frown when they see my message. They can send me rewrites and I happily read several versions (I might draw the line at incarnation number 100, though ). In a sense it becomes a critique partnership. Having these kinds of relationships didn't happen over night, of course.

To me, this is the core gem of the Litopia way of giving feedback. And it is one of the reasons Pete suggests to newcomers to come along to Huddles and also to GIVE feedback before asking for feedback; not just because we learn by giving crit, but also because it helps build these kinds of long-term friendships: Friends who don't judge you, but champion and support your writing.

 

[AgentPete]

Years ago, I read a brilliant & wonderful piece by Brigid Brophy on the emotional content of scientific writing, even research papers published in scholarly journals. It was a seminal moment for me, a real eye-opener.

 

[Vagabond Heart]

Also, curiosity is an emotion. And one you need to evoke in us with both fiction and non-fiction. Xxx

 

[Still Waters]

Thank you for your replies. I feel that a few people misinterpreted me--I was not implying that fiction writers would not be able to critique non-fiction. Really, I was only asking about the specific method, which states "Record What You're Feeling... Not So Much Thinking". I was thinking that a piece of non-fiction, which, I thought at the time, is not necessarily written to elicit emotion, wouldn't necessarily benefit from critiques involving how the reader is feeling.

After reading the replies, especially @AgentPete 's and @Vagabond Heart 's, it really dawned on me that there really is emotion involved. Curiosity has driven me in everything I seek out, and somehow it never occurred to me that curiosity is an emotion. And that, if nothing else, is a state I'd want the reader to be in. This is a revelation for me.

I take instructions very literally, and several of the examples given here of points made in critiques, to me, are not emotional in nature. I try my best to follow the rules and not do things wrong or the way people don't want them to be done. So I'm just trying to learn how rigid the instructions are.

 

[Bloo]

My second concern is—most of what I write is non-fiction. I don’t want people to turn off their brains (suspension of disbelief, something I often find in scientific writings and I call "yarn-spinning," because it turns the reader's brain off so the reader will blindly accept whatever debatable notion the scientist is leading up to) when they’re reading most of the things I write. I am not usually writing to make a person feel something, but rather to increase their understanding, or open their minds to ideas they’ve never been exposed to before. How could my non-fiction writings benefit from this method of critique? I don't think most of my writings are suitable...

I write fiction...so I almost didn't respond to this. But then I remembered something I wrote earlier this year. Here's a slice of it..

I walk out of the hotel and across the parking lot. There's a giant smiling pig over the entrance of the restaurant. I guess he didn't know what was coming. You'd think the smell of smoky goodness would've been a heads-up.

The shift manager greets me as I enter the establishment. My New-England accent informs him that I'm no local. He says I can have a booth, or eat at the bar.

I choose the bar. It's closer to the whiskey...

The above is non-fiction. I know coz I'm the one who drank the whiskey. I could've written the account in lots of different ways without compromising accuracy. Yet I chose one that (hopefully) keeps the reader interested enough to see the point at the end.

There was a textbook on operational amplifiers I used in my electronics engineering classes. It delivered theory and practical examples with a bit of flair and humor. I lost the book some time ago. I wish I could remember the title.

Non-fiction doesn't have to be non-emotional. A dose of emotion can bring the point home without suspending disbelief...

The Hindenburg Disaster

Lots of emotion there. In this case, the pathos actually lends credence to the account. The many fictionalized and less accurate retellings don't come close to this.

 

[LJ Beck]

Something @Barbara said that I thought well worth reiterating is to give it time here. I appreciate you learning the ropes by reading all the docs. That's a great start. Hanging out here will show you more. Read and comment on threads, read feedback that other people give, go to huddles if you can, all of that. Took me a while to get my feet here. I didn't know what to make of everything when I joined. But it's like moving into a new neighbourhood. Takes time to get to know your neighbours, to know where the good coffee is, to find your favorute brunch spot. Before long, you'll be the one bringing a banana cake to the next new neighbour.

 

[James Charles]

My two pence: Although I write fiction, I read a lot of non-fiction; I love history and biographies of famous, important historical figures. The Huddles are great because you do learn a lot from the master--agent Pete. And the Huddlers all give you important feedback on your work.