Warning (we need an extra prefix)

[Alistair Roberts]

I saw an advert on TV, for "Page Publishing" offering to publish "your" book. So I looked into it. and found some site (BBB) gave it an A+ rating, and there was only one negative review....

BUT... In that one review was what the company website didn't mention, at least not anywhere obvious. They charge $4,000 to publish your book!! Now most here would know this is a vanity published, RUN AND DON'T LOOK BACK!!

Some of us have talked about this before, but for any 'newbies' NEVER touch a vanity publisher. All they do is feed on the unsuspecting and take your money, but have little or no connections to the real industry. A real publisher pays YOU.

So, be warned and keep writing

 

[Chase Gamwell]

I saw an advert on TV, for "Page Publishing" offering to publish "your" book. So I looked into it. and found some site (BBB) gave it an A+ rating, and there was only one negative review....

BUT... In that one review was what the company website didn't mention, at least not anywhere obvious. They charge $4,000 to publish your book!! Now most here would know this is a vanity published, RUN AND DON'T LOOK BACK!!

Some of us have talked about this before, but for any 'newbies' NEVER touch a vanity publisher. All they do is feed on the unsuspecting and take your money, but have little or no connections to the real industry. A real publisher pays YOU.

So, be warned and keep writing

My wife came home the other day and apparently one of the people at her school was a published author. She told me to look up the guy on Amazon and I did. The publisher seemed fishy to me, so I looked up their website. It immediately struck me as fishy and when I went to the query page, one of the questions was "How much are you willing to spend to publish your book?" The answers ranged from "Under $3000" to "Whatever it takes!".

I turned to my wife at that point and said that the guy had published through a vanity publisher. For him, it might have been something he wanted to do, but it just reminded me of a cardinal rule of writing I've heard multiple times before: money should always flow towards the author!

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Exactly. And if you can't what for a traditional publisher, you can go the free P.O.D. route and get yourself a hard copy that way.

 

[KG Christopher]

This is all new to me. Still writing my *first* WIP, enjoying every bit of it, but I do intend to try and get it published at some stage. It might be a good resource for other Litopians if we could come up with a 'alarmlist' of vanity publishers, or a path to follow if you want to self publish or publish on demand (POD).

 

[Alistair Roberts]

There are a few websites listing agents and publishers, some with warnings like Preditors and Editors (although very out of date) >
http://pred-ed.com/

 

[Carol Rose]

Preditors and Editors is often out of date because they rely on people to send them information about shady or questionable experiences. Absolute Write Water Cooler has an entire forum dedicated to shady or questionable publishers and agents:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?22-Bewares-Recommendations-amp-Background-Check

The site is daunting, and some long-term members tend to bark first and ask questions later, but if a thread goes on long enough, you can usually get reliable information - good or bad - about a publisher or agent you're trying to scope out.

 

[jon28]

And then some publishers are both 'traditional' publishers AND vanity publishers, depending on how much they like your manuscript. Put it this way, it would be easy as anything to set up your own vanity publishing house... Buy a logo online for 20 dollars, set up a website for even less, and write some well-written bumf (we are writers, after all), and start to charge 5000 dollars to an unsuspecting author. Once you have them hooked, pay a self-publishing editorial half that amount, and... ta da! You have your very own personal publishing house!

It's a horrible thought, but I'm quite sure some vanity publishers out there did just that!

 

[Paul Whybrow]

The other type of publisher to watch out for are companies that publish your novel in ebook format. Although their sites sometimes look good (while others are horrendously amateur), and appear to be a slick venue for you to flog your book, they are really doing nothing that you can't do for yourself on Smashwords or Amazon by uploading your own manuscript.

If you self-publish like this, you keep all of the profit. But if you sign a contract with an e-publisher, they will take their commission out whether they've helped with the marketing or not; some of the contracts are for five years, so watch out. I tried contacting an e-publisher last year, when I was wallowing through 160 queries of literary agents and traditional publishers. I submitted to Tirgearr Publishing in Ireland, which is run and owned by an American lady called Kemberlee Shortland. I got the impression that she and her husband had founded the firm to publish her own erotic romances, and had taken on other writers as a money maker. I was unimpressed with her emails to me, immediately suspicious of her experience and knowledge as she didn't know what the highlighted hyperlinks were in my manuscript. These are a feature often found in ebooks and much recommended by self-publishing guru and founder of Smashwords Mark Coker.

After reading several heated discussions about and with Kemberlee Shortland on writers' forums, I was glad that I didn't hear back from her. As Carol Rose advises, always check a publisher or literary agent out before signing your work away.

 

[Carol Rose]

I'm published with two digital first publishers and I assure you there is nothing hinky going on with them. My Siren-BookStrand titles all went to print as well as being available in e-book format, but that's a matter of company philosophies. And to be honest, the royalties I've received from print books are negligible when compared to the e-books. Readers want the e-books, at least in this genre.

Evernight doesn't send as many titles to print because (a) they don't sell as well as e-books; (b) readers want e-books over print titles.

Yes, there are some questionable digital first publishers out there, but it's not fair to make a global statement that ALL digital first publishers should be avoided. It depends on what you've written, obviously, because most of them are romance publishers. Some also publish other genres but the majority of their sales come from romance novels.

As with any publisher, you want to do your homework first, and ideally speak to their authors. Most have a list of them on their website somewhere, with social media links. Most authors are more than happy to give others the good and the bad about their publisher if asked.

Yes, you can upload books on e-book platforms yourself, but by signing with a publisher I avoid up front costs like covers and editing. My publisher takes care of all that at no cost to me. There are no costs to me, otherwise it would be a vanity publisher, and it's not.

My royalties are much higher than they'd be with traditional print publishers - 45% at Evernight. When you consider what professional editing and decent covers cost, plus buying ISBNs for your books, and paying for formatting unless you can figure it out yourself, to me it's worth having a publisher behind me.

Evernight does a lot of advertising - much more so than Siren. And again, I pay for none of that. I could pay for it on the same sites they do if I wanted, but we're talking hundreds if not thousands of dollars a month. Professional editing costs hundreds up into thousands of dollars per book, depending on the depth of editing you need and how clean the manuscript is to begin with. Covers can make or break a book. Sure, you can do it yourself with any decent photo editing program, but most covers done by the author look like they were done by the author, if you know what I mean. They're not slick and professional looking. Buying stock images to use on them costs money. Investing in the software needed to edit the photos and make the cover - unless you want one that looks REALLY bad - costs money. Some authors get it right, but the majority I see are really bad.

When you take into account all the costs associated with self-publishing, I make more money by taking my 45% royalties from Evernight and letting them do all the work of paying for advertising, paying for fabulous covers, and paying an editor. Not to mention I don't have to mess with formatting or any of that crap, and if a mistake is made (which rarely happens), they fix it, not me.

Digital first publishers like Evernight are recognized as legitimate publishers by the RWA (Romance Writers of America). Trust me when I say that organization will kick a publisher off its list if they start doing anything shady, like not paying their authors on time. Case in point: http://deirdre.net/rwa-notice-regarding-elloras-cave/

Bottom line: Not ALL digital first publishers are shady. Most are legitimate, royalty paying publishers, and do not charge their authors any hidden or up front costs. If anyone has any questions about Siren-BookStand or Evernight, ask them, or send me a PM if you don't want that question searchable, as this is a public forum.

 

[Emurelda]

I know it's hard to believe but little 'ol me actually has a games publishing hat too. It isn't much different to book publishing from what I can gather. And in my own small time, modest, humble experience I would receive and reject a lot of submissions...oh ok...about 10. lol. But still...they were submissions from people who believed in me and my enterprise. I didn't realise i was sending rejection letters, now I look back but i guess that's what I did. Although most of it was around the lines of 'thank you, if we have the capacity to pursue this we will get back to you'. It was all very informal to be honest.

Within time I found one gem that matched what I was looking for, and didn't know it! I can understand when agents say they don't know what they are looking for but when they find it they'll know that's it! And so I fell in love with this submission. I met with the designer/author of the board game and it took me a few years (limited resources) to get the funds (sponsors) together and publish it. But I believe that the excitement from a small-time publisher must be the same for a medium /large publishers. Such that if you submit your book (or game) to a legitimate publisher whether that's ebooks or hard copies then they will find a way to bring it to market without costing you a penny.

I liked the said submission so much I invested in it myself. No regrets.

The lesson here is careful who you submit to...anyone can call themselves a publisher. You never know who they might be

 

[Alistair Roberts]

I submitted to the same company Paul. As soon as they asked me for 2,800 pounds, I quickly ran the other way. I'm sure some ePublishers are genuine, you just have to be damn sure you know who you're dealing with.

 

[Carol Rose]

ePublisher does not automatically mean it's a vanity publisher. The original vanity publishers were all print publishers. They sprang up long before ebooks were around. With ANY publisher - one calling itself traditional, digital first, or whatever label they pin on themselves, make sure you check them out first.

Vanity publishers make their money in one of two main ways. The first is by selling publishing services to authors. They might ask prospective authors to pay to have their book printed, pay to have it edited, pay to have it proofread, or pay to make it available in shops - all things that legitimate publishers will provide for free. The costs quickly mount up – and don’t end once the book has been printed. There may be requests for money for promotion, for corrections, for review copies, or for enhanced distribution. Vanity publishers will wring every penny that they can out of their authors.

The second way that vanity publishers make money is by selling books. They do not, however, sell to the general public. Vanity publishers will not expend the money or energy necessary to get their books into brick-and-mortar bookstores, and will do so little promotion that the chances of anyone finding a vanity-published book online are nil. Instead vanity publishers sell to the authors they publish, and to the friends and family of the same.

It is particularly common for vanity publishers to put together poetry anthologies. This is because it is possible to cram thousands of poems into a single book – and if they compel each published poet to buy at least one copy (at a vastly-inflated price) there’s some very healthy profit to be made.

The poor reputation of some vanity presses precedes them. If you do end up working with a vanity publisher, you may be able to make some headway by doing all of the promotion, marketing and distribution (which they should be handling) by yourself. However, you’ll be hobbled by the fact that many store owners, magazine editors and book reviewers already know the names of popular vanity publishers, and know to avoid them at all costs. Working with a vanity publisher will harm your chances of getting reviews, or getting your book into stores.

Many vanity publishers will be quick to assure writers of how genuine they are, while at the same time dismissing other methods of publishing. Legitimate publishers do not need to state that they are legitimate, nor do they need to emphasize things like “free cover design” or “reasonable publishing prices”. Most legitimate publishers know (and would expect their writers to know) that the author does not pay for the privilege of having a book published.

Also be on the lookout for signs that a publisher accepts anything and everything. Look out for any indication that you might be expected to hand over some money at some point during the process. Look out for assurances that it will be quick and easy to publish with them. If they offer a “free publishing guide” in exchange for your email, avoid them like the plague.

Flattery is a tactic often used by vanity publishers in order to convince authors to hand over their money. Be wary of any response to a submission that heaps non-specific praise on your work, or any publisher that seems pushy or overly-insistent about getting their hands on you. It is in the interests of legitimate publishers to be careful and selective, in order to put out the best books they can. It is in the interests of vanity publishers to cast as wide a net as possible, to publish anything, and to convince the people they are publishing that each and every one of them has penned a work of unique genius.

Take a look at the covers of some of the books the company has already published (which you should be able to find with ease wherever you normally purchase books). Legitimate publishers hire competent designers who know what they’re doing to produce high-quality covers. Some scam publishers will try to save money by doing the cover design themselves – and the results usually show. If a publisher has a catalogue full of books with appalling or amateur-looking covers, avoid them! After all, would you want your own book packaged in such a shoddy way?

You should be immediately wary of any publisher who wishes to print your book without editing or proofreading it. The profits of legitimate publishers rest on the quality of the books they publish, and so they will do everything they can to ensure that they are the best they can be. Vanity publishers don’t care about the quality of the books they publish, as the only people to whom they will sell are the family and friends of the author. Vanity publishers will, therefore, rarely bother with thorough editing or proofreading.

Don’t Part With Any Money! That's the key, right there. Money should flow TO THE AUTHOR, NOT to the publisher.

 

[KG Christopher]

As ever, a great bit of free advice from everyone, which I for one appreciate.

One of the things I thought I would do would be to pay a consultency for guidance on submissions to agents/publishers. I found this company online, based in London. They do look very reputable, and look like they would give an honest feedback. Some of their readers look impressive, and I know we have the houses, and fellow, equaly auspicious Litopians for advice, but has anyone had any experince with this sort of editing feedback / readers / mentors?

https://literaryconsultancy.co.uk/

 

[Emurelda]

As ever, a great bit of free advice from everyone, which I for one appreciate.

One of the things I thought I would do would be to pay a consultency for guidance on submissions to agents/publishers. I found this company online, based in London. They do look very reputable, and look like they would give an honest feedback. Some of their readers look impressive, and I know we have the houses, and fellow, equaly auspicious Litopians for advice, but has anyone had any experince with this sort of editing feedback / readers / mentors?

https://literaryconsultancy.co.uk/

Yes, I have considered it. Although I believe professional editing is vital for me personally if I go the self-publishing route.

There are only two companies I have considered; The Writers Workshop and Cornerstones.

For the latter you can get a grant to pay for professional editing. This one is supported by the Arts Council. I will check and confirm my details.

 

[J. Rook]

Thank you all for this thread. I have looked into this issue over a number of months and have decided to look after my own online publishing and marketing. Many very tempting publishing offers keep appearing but I've stopped investigating them. It has been very interesting for me to read the experiences and thinking of fellow Litopians.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

As ever, a great bit of free advice from everyone, which I for one appreciate.

One of the things I thought I would do would be to pay a consultency for guidance on submissions to agents/publishers. I found this company online, based in London. They do look very reputable, and look like they would give an honest feedback. Some of their readers look impressive, and I know we have the houses, and fellow, equaly auspicious Litopians for advice, but has anyone had any experince with this sort of editing feedback / readers / mentors?

https://literaryconsultancy.co.uk/

I have paid a professional assessor to read my novels before deeming them ready to send out--one assessor was pretty cheap and okay. But the second I used was brilliant! Expensive (NZ$900), but worth every cent, because she was thorough, insightful, professional, and kind (she not only pointed out what was bad, but what she liked, too, which was surprisingly useful, as well as helping me swallow the rest). Most I've come across have a sliding scale--they'll do a quick read with general comments for not much money, a more in-depth read with more detailed comments, and a line-by-line intense evaluation including editing.

I don't know if I'll keep doing this, but it has been like my own personal writing workshop each time, and I've learned a lot. Way out here in the wop wops, it costs me a lot of money just to physically get to any writing workshop, so it's been great.

 

[Quillwitch]

Yes, I have considered it. Although I believe professional editing is vital for me personally if I go the self-publishing route.

There are only two companies I have considered; The Writers Workshop and Cornerstones.

For the latter you can get a grant to pay for professional editing. This one is supported by the Arts Council. I will check and confirm my details.

Have you ever heard of Golden Egg Academy?

 

[KG Christopher]

I have paid a professional assessor to read my novels before deeming them ready to send out--one assessor was pretty cheap and okay. But the second I used was brilliant! Expensive (NZ$900), but worth every cent, because she was thorough, insightful, professional, and kind (she not only pointed out what was bad, but what she liked, too, which was surprisingly useful, as well as helping me swallow the rest). Most I've come across have a sliding scale--they'll do a quick read with general comments for not much money, a more in-depth read with more detailed comments, and a line-by-line intense evaluation including editing.

I don't know if I'll keep doing this, but it has been like my own personal writing workshop each time, and I've learned a lot. Way out here in the wop wops, it costs me a lot of money just to physically get to any writing workshop, so it's been great.

I suppose I forgot, but AgentPete actually does a one on one Masterclass...