The hardest thing about writing?

Paul Whybrow

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Dudley, I agree with Karen about voice. Writers have one inside them already, just as musicians have a gift, and artists see the potential of a blank canvas or wall. If you have to go looking for your voice, you might be approaching this the wrong way. Just write. :) Your voice is already inside you. It will mature and change over time as your writing matures, but it's already there. I can't help wondering if maybe you're thinking instead of finding a unique way to put a spin on something? If that's the case, I agree that's the real challenge of writing. Especially if you're writing in genre fiction. To find a new way to say the same old, same old that everyone else is saying is indeed a challenge. And for me, it's also part of the fun. :)

And also to Dudley, yes we are editors as well. Writers have to be. It's part of learning our craft. :)

Karen, I can assure you that it's not my intention to exclude a particular group of readers. Obviously, it's my intention to sell books, otherwise I might as well put them out there for free, because I'm not doing this solely for my benefit. I'm doing it to make money. And to make money - to sell the books in the first place - they have to be technically as perfect as this insignificant human can make them. That's part of learning our craft as writers.

I know there are writers out there who use dialogue tags in the way you described. But from this reader's perspective, when I read people growling, hissing, and laughing words, it pulls me right out of the story and I'm gone. I likely will not buy anything from that author again, because people don't growl, laugh, or hiss while they speak. There are other ways to show expression without tagging it onto dialogue. I have snippets that show that, too, but I think this time I'm going to refrain from posting one because obviously doing so earlier sent the wrong message.

Bottom line: Each of us has to write the way we feel is best suited to us. Learning your craft and editing your work before submitting it is part of this game. But at the end of the day, you can only be who you are inside, and you're the one who has to be happy with your work.

I'm not the be all to end all when it comes to writing tips or craft. I'm just me. An author of erotic romance who also happens to be a nerd when it comes to grammar and punctuation. I learn something new with each and every book I write, as it should be. When we reach the place where we think our writing is perfect and can't be improved, that's the point where we're in trouble. I'm merely trying to help others, that's all. I assure you, that was my only intention in jumping into this conversation.
 
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Absolutely Alistair, You can never please everyone :) and both points of view are entirely correct, though not in the same sense. You could go mad over thinking it.
 
Tara Rose said:
Karen, I can assure you that with close to 60 published books now between my three pen names, it's not my intention to exclude a particular group of readers. Obviously, it's my intention to sell books, otherwise I might as well put them out there for free, because I'm not doing this solely for my benefit. I'm doing it to make money. And to make money - to sell the books in the first place - they have to be technically as perfect as this insignificant human can make them. That's part of learning our craft as writers.

I appreciate your analysis of the snippet I posted. I know there are writers out there who use dialogue tags in the way you described. But from this reader's perspective, when I see people growling, hissing, and laughing words, it pulls me right out of the story and I'm gone. I likely will not buy anything from that author again, because people don't growl, laugh, or hiss while they speak. There are other ways to show expression without tagging it onto dialogue. I have snippets that show that, too, but I think this time I'm going to refrain from posting one. ;)
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Ask any drama student to speak in a hiss, growl or laugh and they will. If anyone was going to say, no one talks like that, it would be them.

You will find people hissing, growling and laughing when they speak if you visit Scotland Tara ;) that gravely voice male actors are so irritatingly fond of is a growl. Talking with the teeth clenched and the face taut is a growl also.

Russians and the Japanese are famous for having men who talk in a growl.

Anyone who knows me in real life will tell you that I am always laughing and speaking at the same time ;) The Belgian and Dutch and Irish are also laugh speakers.

And a hiss is speaking similar to a growl only under the breath.

To say you can't speak like that is untrue. You can, and in some cases frequently do, it just depends on your culture ;)

Gosh I love these discussions ! So nice to have a good meaty discussion about our craft :D
 
"Nae bother," she laughed. ;)

Pmsl! All in good fun and high spirits
 
For what its worth, you are both right... You may not exactly laugh when you talk, more correctly it is a tone. You can speak 'with' humour in your voice, and we sure know when someone is angry when they are speaking. But I would say its actually a tone as such. But when writing a novel etc. we don't want to drown our readers by explaining those details... now, I'm otta here... again! lol :D
 
just for my opinion, i was always taught at school that only using 'said' (or the same words over and over) showed a lack of vocabulary and i was encouraged to use different adjectives, this has leaked into my adult life and my writing, i appreciate everyone has their own style and preferences but i would never dismiss an authors work because they don't write the way i think they should
 
If I'm paying for a book and I don't care for the way an author writes, or his/her style of writing pulls me out of the story, why would I spend money on more stories by the same author? It's not personal against the author. By the same token I would never expect anyone to continue to spend money on my books if they didn't care for my writing style. That would be silly on their part.

As a reader, I'm a consumer. If I don't care for someone's writing style, I can choose not to spend my money on their books. Not everyone is going to care for everything we write, the same way people have different tastes in music and art.

It's been a few decades since I've been inside a university classroom, but I've been reading fiction (and by that I mean fiction not geared toward kids or teens) since I was about eight. That means it's been almost fifty years. I'm very picky about what I read, and about what I spend money on. Doesn't make me a horrible person. It simply makes me who I am as a reader. My tastes are my own, as are the tastes of each reader in here.

As a writer, this is exactly why I never do reviews for authors, even if they're my friends, or why I don't look at anyone else's work. It's too risky. Most authors I know feel the same way, or if they do look at another's work, it's someone they've known a long time and are sure they can trust not to let personal feelings into it. That's why it's so difficult to find trusted beta readers. You want someone who likes your particular writing style, but can also be blunt and give you the kind of constructive feedback you need to improve your writing.

Believe me when I tell you I am very aware that not all readers enjoy my writing style, but it's mine. *shrugs* Not sure what else I can say. Only trying to be helpful because that's the whole point of this community.
 
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Jennifer Stone said:
just for my opinion, i was always taught at school that only using 'said' (or the same words over and over) showed a lack of vocabulary and i was encouraged to use different adjectives, this has leaked into my adult life and my writing, i appreciate everyone has their own style and preferences but i would never dismiss an authors work because they don't write the way i think they should
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That's what I was taught too... well semi taught, my English teacher spoke more about Russia and learning Russian lol! That was higher English. We got course materials from the sub teacher 2 days before the exam that we should have learnt in the first week! The only reason I got a good grade was because of the creative writing section :D

At the end of the day it will always be the story that grabs the reader. Look at Tolkien for instance, he had absolutely no concept about time lines and a MILLION plot holes but people round the world LOVE his writing. A good example of story over structure.

Harry Potter is another example (Though I have to say, I got to page 4 of book 1 and chucked it)

We will never ever be able to please every reader. My mantra is do the best I can do, and tell a damn good story while I'm at it ;)
 
Tara Rose said:
I know there are writers out there who use dialogue tags in the way you described. But from this reader's perspective, when I read people growling, hissing, and laughing words, it pulls me right out of the story and I'm gone. I likely will not buy anything from that author again, because people don't growl, laugh, or hiss while they speak. There are other ways to show expression without tagging it onto dialogue. I have snippets that show that, too, but I think this time I'm going to refrain from posting one because obviously doing so earlier sent the wrong message..
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Do you think?
 
Great topic. Hardest thing about writing? Hmmm...for me just learning the conventional form expected. I've learnt lots here but what other unknown unknowns don't I unknow? :D
 
Writing. Ha, that's definitely the hardest thing for me. Plotting, finding subplots that fit, writing scene cards, even editing and rewriting are all difficult, but the actual act of making up new words is frakin hard. But interestingly enough, right now during my season of editing and agenting, I find that the writing is the part I'm missing most. We'll see how much I still miss it in a couple months when I'm back in it, but for now, I do.
 
Nicole Wilson said:
Writing. Ha, that's definitely the hardest thing for me. Plotting, finding subplots that fit, writing scene cards, even editing and rewriting are all difficult, but the actual act of making up new words is frakin hard. But interestingly enough, right now during my season of editing and agenting, I find that the writing is the part I'm missing most. We'll see how much I still miss it in a couple months when I'm back in it, but for now, I do.
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I know exactly what you mean, there, Starbuck. I'm querying, beta-reading, and Twittering full time, and can't wait to get back to writing — it's been two full months, now, I've been away.
 
Jason Byrne said:
"If it sounds like writing, I rewrite it."
I like that. Add that to the plaque above the door to Litopia!
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I know what Doctorow means - sort of, as I think that he's referring to prose that sounds too florid. However, the advice to writers to kill their darlings can be a two edged sword, creating dilemmas in one's mind.

Just because you suspect that you might have been showing-off a bit, with a particular section or choice of word, doesn't mean to say that it doesn't work well and that a reader might like it. This happened to me with a description I used of light twinkling through bare trees in my novel. It sounded too poetic, and I almost removed it, but my beta reader singled it out for praise.

What do I know? You can't please all of the people all of the time, that's for sure, and finding our voice as a writer means making judgement calls about our darlings .
 
And it need not even be florid — things like,
"I think not," he smiled
-or-
What a gush of euphony voluminously wells

Anything that calls attentions to the words themselves.
 
Jason Byrne said:
And it need not even be florid — things like,
"I think not," he smiled
-or-
What a gush of euphony voluminously wells

Anything that calls attentions to the words themselves.
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For the most part, I totally agree. However, there have been a couple times where I was so pleased with the wording that, when someone told me I ought to change it, my reaction was, "no thanks. I'll change it when someone is paying me to change it." :p
 
Nicole Wilson said:
For the most part, I totally agree. However, there have been a couple times where I was so pleased with the wording that, when someone told me I ought to change it, my reaction was, "no thanks. I'll change it when someone is paying me to change it." :p
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You go girl! And if you listen to @Carol Rose, sometimes not even then.
 
Coming up with a good idea, I think. It has to be fairly meticulous to me.
 
Jason Byrne said:
And it need not even be florid — things like,
"I think not," he smiled
-or-
What a gush of euphony voluminously wells

Anything that calls attentions to the words themselves.
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Sorry, but the grammar geek in me just had a coronary. :) People can't smile words, so honestly that's not a good example of whatever point we're trying to make here.

He smiled. "I think not." is better. You don't want to use an action for a dialogue tag because people don't smile words. They speak them or ask them. :)

Anyway… I'm not entirely sure what we're talking about here. Are we referring to over-writing? Anything used in moderation probably isn't going to be annoying or obvious. It's a subjective decision most times, and of course you walk that fine line between over-writing and voice. Some people write that way all the time.

I think the whole idea of killing your darlings has more to do with eliminating anything that doesn't move the story forward or imparts new information to the readers than it does removing those lovely turns of phrase that we're particularly proud of. There has to be a reason to remove the writing, no matter who is suggesting you do it. Does it go off on a tangent that means nothing and to where you never return? Is it confusing to the reader what you're trying to say? Is it chit-chat, useless dialogue that weighs down the passage and doesn't really add anything to either the story or the characters? Are you spending three pages describing the scenery to the point your readers have now wandered away and have no clue what your original point was? The list goes on and on.

And then there's the whole issues of genre. Some genres (fantasy) have readers that demand lengthy and detailed descriptions. Others (romance) have readers that expect to see a character-driven story, which means you keep the complicated and convoluted plots in their place - as secondary to the story arc.

There's no sweeping generalization that can be easily made with respect to fiction in general and what pieces parts should be cut, other than to ask yourself honestly is it moving the story forward, or is it imparting necessary information? If it does neither of those, you might want to take a second look at why it's there.
 
Carol Rose said:
Sorry, but the grammar geek in me just had a coronary. :) People can't smile words, so honestly that's not a good example of whatever point we're trying to make here.

He smiled. "I think not." is better. You don't want to use an action for a dialogue tag because people don't smile words. They speak them or ask them. :)

Anyway… I'm not entirely sure what we're talking about here. Are we referring to over-writing? Anything used in moderation probably isn't going to be annoying or obvious. It's a subjective decision most times, and of course you walk that fine line between over-writing and voice. Some people write that way all the time.

I think the whole idea of killing your darlings has more to do with eliminating anything that doesn't move the story forward or imparts new information to the readers than it does removing those lovely turns of phrase that we're particularly proud of. There has to be a reason to remove the writing, no matter who is suggesting you do it. Does it go off on a tangent that means nothing and to where you never return? Is it confusing to the reader what you're trying to say? Is it chit-chat, useless dialogue that weighs down the passage and doesn't really add anything to either the story or the characters? Are you spending three pages describing the scenery to the point your readers have now wandered away and have no clue what your original point was? The list goes on and on.

And then there's the whole issues of genre. Some genres (fantasy) have readers that demand lengthy and detailed descriptions. Others (romance) have readers that expect to see a character-driven story, which means you keep the complicated and convoluted plots in their place - as secondary to the story arc.

There's no sweeping generalization that can be easily made with respect to fiction in general and what pieces parts should be cut, other than to ask yourself honestly is it moving the story forward, or is it imparting necessary information? If it does neither of those, you might want to take a second look at why it's there.
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LikeLikeLike
 
@Brian Clegg I totally agree on the non-fiction book proposals. That's why I've written 3 1/2 novels in the past year, rather than complete the first non-fiction proposal, which was the whole reason I quit my job to write! Not enough confidence on my part, I think, to mount a good sales pitch for it.
 
The hardest part for me is writing scenes with more than one character talking. I don't want it to be tedious with A said, B said, C said and so on, but how to make sure the readers know who is talking. I've found myself trying to avoid those scenes and usually end up stuck until I give in to the scene necessary.
 
Well for starters each character should have words and phrases they use, that the others don't. Even simple things like a Scots person or character will often start a sentence with 'Aye', or tend to avoid contractions etc etc.
 
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Paul Whybrow

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  • Paul Whybrow
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  • David Steele
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