Membership Changes

[Deleted member 604]

And I have to agree with @Tim James it could become another USP to entice new members and least if they do pay at Benefactor level they could get that as some sort of Extra Bonus. For Example - A few lines of feedback on a Query Letter they are considering in their submission package to agents through The Writing Room. Who knows? It might even reduce the risk of them leaving once they get what they want or even better upgrade their membership. As well as the endless support and invaluable insight they would already receive on here. And the most USP we have on here is @AgentPete, Is it not?

 

[RK Wallis]

Having just been through the discovery of Litopia, I'd say the craft posts by @Carol Rose would be enough to lead me to the Writing Groups, may have taken me longer than when they opened up (just before these changes, which I totally understand) but I'm sure I would have.

I am torn. Not about paying myself, but on how you manage genuine writers who can't avoid to support Litopia and the trolls. Over the last 3 years, I've helped manage the Australian Writer's Forum and the amount of trolls and people who attack genuine writers is alarming. I would want Litopia free of such negativity. On the other hand such freedom comes at the sacrifice of the genuine committed writer. I feel this dilemma because, if I couldn't rely on my husband (as I can't work) that would be me. I suppose, if I imagine myself in the position of not being able to pay, I'd still prefer no access to the Writing Groups but a safe place to gather with genuine writers. There's nothing worse than talking to someone and finding out they're false. It's a violation.

 

[Deleted member 604]

Yes, Carol’s Craft Chats are beneficial. But the truth is Litopia relies heavily on donations to stay alive and to burn brightly. To be honest, like you, like everyone. I don’t know where I would be either without this place both personally and professionally. But, unfortunately we have to think of ways to keep interest, encourage new members, keep old ones and most importantly make enough money to keep this place going. That’s the true. And yes, even without the Writing Group. I have to agree Litopia is a fun, friendly, safe place. A great way to make new friends, allow writers to be writers. The list is endless.

 

[Webbwalker]

Hello everyone. I'm just back from a bit of an offline-sabbatical.
I must say, this is a very sad for me. I'm more than happy to pay what I can, when I can, but after living on carer's allowance for years, it's really not do-able at the moment. This must be why I'm not seeing the writer's groups anymore, I wondered what had happened when I logged in this morning. Hey ho. I guess I'll see you all in the surgery again when things pick up a little.

 

[AgentPete]

That would be irony?

No, I think it's just rudeness, actually.

 

[Dan Payne]

I like the idea of being able to see the writers' groups before you can post to them. The writers' groups are one of the things that drew my attention here - and I haven't yet reached my 20 posts so I haven't managed to see them before this change came in. :-( The 20 posts/7 days limitation seems a decent way of making sure the privilege isn't abused, but perhaps some compromise position might work for the writers' groups - non-members can read, members can reply to posts, but only paid up members can create new threads? That would allow people to see the value the groups offer. The money's not likely to be a problem for me personally, but I am a member of a few other writing forums and this would be the only one requiring payment.

Just making this post to contribute to my 20.

 

[AgentPete]

Just a general note to everyone who has so kindly contributed their thoughts to this thread. I’m reading it all closely, and will take everything on board. Some initial reactions:

It may be possible to give newcomers trial access to the Writing Groups, for a week or ten days. As with so much on the net, it all depends on the feasibility / cost of the underlying technology. I’m investigating.

There will be an overhaul of many existing areas including the WG soon, aiming to make things tighter, sharper, and more supportive of your writing life.

As far as subscriptions are concerned. There is a general expectation on the net that everything is, and should be, free. This is disingenuous nonsense, largely promulgated by the likes of Google, Facebook etc to justify their wholesale pillaging of your private information. Nothing is actually free on the net, you just pay for it in different ways. As far as Google, Facebook etc are concerned, you’re not their customers – you are their product. We’re not like that here, but it does means there are direct costs that must be met – somehow.

I have some sympathy with writers who can’t afford to support us, which is why a lot of Litopia is and will remain free. However, it also boils down to priorities. Basic level support is really, really cheap – I’d hope that most members could manage that, at least.

But, we also have other membership options that, frankly, are incredibly important to us, e.g. Patron / Laureate / Ambassador level. Those members really count in terms of keeping Litopia going. Their subs also partly offset the lack of financial support from Basic level members.

Again, thanks for all your thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 604]

And unfortunately, such tech doesn’t come without a price either. And you can’t really put a price on enriching and improving a writers craft to help them get closer to getting traditionally published. Can you? You can’t. It’s priceless really. Look @Leonora story for instance, very admirable and inspirational Indeed.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

In attempting to understand how the book world works, since returning to creative writing in 2013, I've only come across two sure-fire ways of making money.

One is to run a course, ideally residential, such as Arvon and Retreat West.

The other money-spinner is a competition. There are some highly dubious competitions around, while others have great prestige, even making it into the newspapers. Literary agents often approach the winners...agents are sometimes the judges too. Simply being placed in a competition is a gold star on your writing CV when querying.

Litopia and @AgentPete already have a fantastic reputation, so a writing competition which charged an affordable entry fee would be sure to attract thousands of submissions. There are certainly drawbacks, involving organisation, reading entries and paying well-respected judges, but with the right marketing, the Litopia Literary Award would rival whoever is sponsoring the Booker this year, while generating much-needed revenue.

 

[AgentPete]

Thanks, Paul, Alix has also been suggesting something similar. I’m not against it at all. As you say, we’d have to do it properly.

My feeling at the moment is that we simply need a bit more visibility / awareness. We could easily absorb more members, which would help the finances a lot. Building awareness is the #1 challenge right now.

 

[Deleted member 604]

@Paul Whybrow
You have given us your donnée of proficiency yet again and I totally agree with you.
Something else I have mentioned to @AgentPete a Writing Comp annually or twice a year, perhaps every 6 months or something. And I'm assured Pete wouldn't have any problem with connections and putting together a panel of judges so to speak, selected from the Literacy Industry itself.
Yeah a reasonable entry fee for all, 'The Litopia Literary Award' love it, it has a great ring to it and I'm sure it would get us all buzzing with excitement in here, deffo something to consider.
@AgentPete I second that too, well first it - Attention is our uttermost priority at the moment and to do so in a positive, practical and productive manner.

 

[Carol Rose]

Hey Everyone,
Can I just make myself clear regarding my ideas for The Writing Groups and they are purely ideas atm.
At the end of the day it is entirely up to @AgentPete. I don't mind either way, really.
My suggestion is a scoring system of Bronze, Silver and Gold could be used to reflect how an Agent might for example read/view a Query Letter or Submission. And could be something @AgentPete could use together with a few lines of feedback.
To give us the confidence, encouragement or boost we need to put together a professional submission package.
This would be useful as you have to admit we struggle as writers with the whole submission package to Agents - from the Synopsis, Query Letter and The Novel itself.
Feedback from other writers is great, very helpful and amicable. Besides, The Writing Group is my Favourite hang out on here.
But to have a little feedback from an Agent aka Pete would be very valuable too in there even if its just a sentence or two.
Especially as there is a limit of about 5 or 6 packages reviewed a week on Pop-ups. And some of us may not be ready or confident enough yet to submit to Pete or to any other Agent for that matter.
Everyone wouldn't be on some sort of scoring system if they share a piece of work in The Writing Groups or you have to earn a certain amount of points/stars to win privileges etc. No.
It would very much stay the way it is now The Writing Group.
Maybe put a Quote of the day in there to encourage some positive vibes, organise it a little so we have Query Letters, Short Stories and The First Chapter Of Our Novels separately not all together in one list, to allow easier reading and access.
And let me repeat myself they are only some ideas of mine and I have mentioned them to Pete for consideration, that's all nothing more.
The last thing I would want is to make anyone unhappy and turn the Writing Groups into some sort of pyramid scoring system, and a competition of sorts etc.
I sincerely apologise if I have given anyone that idea because that was not my intention.
Kindest Regards,
Alix

Thanks for clarifying, @RainbowNerdAlix. No apologies needed. I realize now you meant that @AgentPete would judge the pieces or query letters put up in the Writing Groups. Is he on board with this? Sounds like a lot of extra work for him, not to mention some people might be put off by it.

We already have the Pop-Ups, where he does give his feedback on the works submitted. And we have the Submission Surgery, where it's a one-on-one with him that goes over the entire submission package, including the cover letter. In other words, we already have two features in place on Litopia where we can get feedback directly from him.

Obviously it's Peter's call, but it seems to me the majority of the people who have responded on here aren't looking for recognition or awards of any sort for their works posted in the Writing Groups.

 

[Deleted member 604]

They're simply looking for feedback.

I couldn't agree with you more @Carol Rose.
But what Pete says goes. I'm easy me, I don't mind either way.
All I'm saying is the Writing Room isn't just a place used for work and stories now.
People are asking for feedback/advice regarding their queries, and personally I feel a little fraudulent when it comes to that, and counterproductive.
If we ourselves have no experience of writing query letters or have had no success with them in our own submissions to Agents. How can we comment on others?
So would it be such a bad idea for Pete to give us FEEDBACK on such? To point us in the right direction perhaps?
As well as giving maybe not so confident writers or writers who are new to the whole submission process. The encouragement they need to make that first step to share their work and submit to the likes of POP-UPS, The Submission Surgery and Agents in general.
Pete's feedback would work as a taster and make them think hang on a minute submitting to Agents or Pete might not be as nerve-racking as I thought, ease them in gently.
You all remember how nervous I was at first when I submitted to @AgentPete for the first time, very memorable that. But to be fair you were all great and supportive but If I haven't put my work up in The Writing Room beforehand, personally I wouldn't have submitted to Pete at all.

 

[Steve C]

I've only been a member for a week or so but already feel more at home here than either of the two other forums I joined.
There is a nice atmosphere here and the pop up submissions are brilliant. Early days but for now I am happy to pay $5/month just to hang around.
I hope the place survives as it does seem unique and sincere in its approach.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

But to have a little feedback from an Agent aka Pete would be very valuable too in there even if its just a sentence or two.

Many people are putting query letters in there now and to have an agent's feedback on them would be a great help, I'm sure.

New ideas are good. Another idea. The Submissions Surgery is there to help with exactly that, without the element of competition, which could overheat things with a risk of turning toxic. The Submission Surgeries are not regular like the Pop Ups but are an agent-writer 1-1 and in- depth with a close look at the letter and blurb, (the sub package) and also a look at the MS opening.

Some Surgeries could continue to happen on exactly that same basis.

Others could be 'Query Letter Specials,' or whatever, and could focus purely on a number of query letters, say, 2-3 per Surgery.
Minus the time spent on the MS, because Peter has only such much time, esp on a Sat evening, like everyone. Litopians would get that agent's eye on their letter, no fighting for the prize. It's already there. Everyone would learn something which is very much the spirit of Litopia.
The Surgeries are private unlike Pop- Ups. And it would keep things simple.

For the generic know-how of query letters and blurbs, there is so much already 'out there' from agents.

 

[Carol Rose]

I couldn't agree with you more @Carol Rose.
But what Pete says goes. I'm easy me, I don't mind either way.
All I'm saying is the Writing Room isn't just a place used for work and stories now.
People are asking for feedback/advice regarding their queries, and personally I feel a little fraudulent when it comes to that, and counterproductive.
If we ourselves have no experience of writing query letters or have had no success with them in our own submissions to Agents. How can we comment on others?
So would it be such a bad idea for Pete to give us FEEDBACK on such? To point us in the right direction perhaps?

I didn't mean to imply it's a bad idea for Peter to give feedback. But since we already have two features in place that provide that, I was questioning the usefulness. Of course, if he wants to take the time to do it in the Writing Groups, that's great.

At any rate, it appears now that the feedback idea has been separated from the rewards one. When I responded earlier, I was responding to both ideas as presented in this thread together at one point, but those threads have been deleted.

As to your feeling like a fraud, I wish no one felt that way. I absolutely believe that as readers, we can give each other feedback on query letters or on work. It goes on out there all the time. You don't have to have been successful with a query to an agent to give someone your impression of a letter, as a reader. Sure, you're not coming at it from the same perspective, but no ten agents will see one letter the same way either. Our impressions are valuable to each other as readers.

 

[AgentPete]

Thank you, @Steve C, that's what we’re aiming for. A lot of kudos must go to the Guardians, who give a massive amount of time and expertise to keep things sweet here.

 

[Deleted member 604]

@Carol Rose,
Just a few ideas is all and I'm talking from my own experiences.
And how can we read a Query as just a reader? Not as a writer? And not as a writer asking for representation?
But I have had a fair share of full-manuscript requests though since I first Joined Litopia and submitted to Pete for the first time.
So for me, that alone speaks volumes and what this place has done for me so far. Onward and Upward is what I say even Skyward.
And we must not forget Guardian @Rich. as The Writing Room is his domain and baby so to speak.
Lastly, I'm more than happy and confident @AgentPete has the best interest of Litopia and Litopians and will decide what will benefit us the most in regards to that

 

[Leonora]

I think the novel competition idea is a really good one - I've entered a few and not begrudged the fee - but it would have to have an enticing enough prize, which would be expense and time for @AgentPete again. Don't know if these competitions make money, or just cover their costs?

 

[Leonora]

As a member, it's a bit of a conundrum. I hate other social media. What I love here is that there are few enough of us to 'know' everyone, and the quality of writing is really high. Everyone is serious about it. But that doesn't help the financials, I know.

 

[AgentPete]

I think the novel competition idea is a really good one - I've entered a few and not begrudged the fee - but it would have to have an enticing enough prize, which would be expense and time for @AgentPete again. Don't know if these competitions make money, or just cover their costs?

They tend to be a mixed bag. I’ve known / come across too many that are simply there to make money for the organiser. No benefit whatsoever for the author.

 

[Paul V]

As a Patron member I don't see any adverts, so can I ask how frequent and 'obtrusive' to the Litopian experience the adverts are? If more income could be gained from more advertisers/adverts, then for me personally I'd have no issue for the advert free experience to be a higher level of membership. Whilst I appreciate we may all find pop-up adverts etc. annoying, it would be a small price to pay for the advice and support I read on this site. Good will is a wonderful thing but can only run at a loss for so long.

 

[AgentPete]

Sadly, the ads will never come close to income parity with a basic subscription. And there is an issue, too, with the type of ads we show (over which we have no control). Don’t assume that the ads we show are endorsed by us (in the past some people have been misled into thinking that we endorse vanity publishers etc). I’d be happier not to show them, if we could.

Key thing at the moment is building numbers. Getting the word out.

 

[Deleted member 604]

@AgentPete agreed everything else comes a very close second.

 

[Deleted member 604]

Good will is a wonderful thing but can only run at a loss for so long.

It is and very hard to come by these days and there is plenty of it on here, but is true to life it won't generate enough funds to keep this fantastic place running as superbly as it does now.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Retweeting Litopia's tweets and using the hashtag #writingcommunity, announcing up and coming Pop-Ups tends to bring curious writers over for a wee look. Maybe this could do a bit more, used a bit more. Maybe not, but it's there and not actively used much as yet.

 

[Kitty]

Ah that’s a shame. It was the writing groups that really helped my hone my skills, and having free access was one of the best things about Litopia. I had hoped to be able to get involved again when I have the time - but I recognise the need to make money. That’s the way of the world.

 

[Deleted member 604]

@Kirsten, our feedback in The Writing Room would be entirely separate to Pete’s feedback. Ours would be exactly the same, as it is now. Regarding Pete’s feedback maybe spontaneous, surprising, unannounced sort of feedback periodically or every so often. And if Pete goes ahead with the Try before you buy aka trial period then new/non members would see that, snippets of Pete’s feedback. And let’s be honest it’s not just Pete he’s an Agent after all, a very USP, I think personally. And his structural feedback would give newcomers some confidence in their writing that necessarily does not have to be submitted to him and aired live on POP-UPS and Submission Surgery straight away. We all know as writers, how sensitive we are when it comes to our work being looked at and judged. The first time is always the hardest and it’s not nice, it’s horrible and as writers we’ve all been there. So I think by Pete doing that, giving them a taster of those sort of benefits beforehand. It may make them consider donating to us if that makes any sense. Like I said it’s completely up to @AgentPete nobody else. We are all entitled to our own opinions but at the same time, we can talk about it and share ideas.
And work together to find new ways to keep Litopia afloat and raise our numbers.

 

[Leonora]

I'd feel more comfortable with individual, 30 dollar payments for writing group feedback because I don't trust myself to remember to cancel a subscription

Though at $5 that 30 dollars would buy 6 months basic membership. Unless there's a real principle involved against joining.

 

[Deleted member 604]

@Kirsten, Don’t do that we’ll miss your quirkinesses and who else does multiple voice overs like you. When it comes to reading submissions for POP-UPS. Nobody. @Kirsten you all know where we are if you need any advice/help with your work regardless. Your still one of us