It's not whether but how one is rejected...

Emurelda

Trademarks, copyright, patents. Oh my!

  • Emurelda
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Carol Rose

Passive versus active voice chuckle I just saw posted on Facebook

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Tara Rose said:
I'm on a roll today. LOL! One more post and then I'll shut up. The first novel I completed and sent out was a hot mess. It was full of newbie mistakes. But I didn't yet know I'd made them, so I sent that puppy out to every agent I could find. By the time I was done and had instead joined RWA (Romance Writers of America) and bought some craft books, I garnered something in the neighborhood of 280 rejections. Not kidding. When I learned a few (hundred) things, and took advantage of the fabulous resources from a professional writing organization that caters to my chosen genre (that's another thing you can and should do! Join one if they offer them in your genre because the educational and networking ops in those orgs alone is worth the membership fee!), it was years later. I tried again. This time I got some requests for fulls and partials, but I still wasn't ready. Fast forward eleven years… YES … eleven years … and that original manuscript became His Majesty's Secret. So don't give up, but be SMART about it. Learn this craft first, and keep learning. :)
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Awesome insight...aw man! You're off are you...ok :( *goes to click on all of tara rose's posts for more writing insight*
 
Emurelda said:
Taking Michael Levin's lead on rejection letters; here's what you do (and definitely NOT do!!)



I said it once and I'll say it again - I have adopted this guy as my virtual literary tutor. I learn so much from his vids.
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Yeah, this guy is awesome.
Okay, no more rejection bell you guys! Only submission gongs!
Y'all think like winners, right?:D Right.
 
Jason Byrne said:
Yeah, this guy is awesome.
Okay, no more rejection bell you guys! Only submission gongs!
Y'all think like winners, right?:D Right.
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Yey!
Celebrating rejection is not much of a celebration really.
What all this thread has taught me is to focusing on constructively improving our writing, querying, and synopsing..:D
 
Tara Rose said:
I've been reluctant to jump into this but I can't stay silent any longer. And this is NOT directed at any one person. It's a general post. The more you take rejection personally, the less you'll learn from it and grow as a writer. The worst mistake any of us can make is to believe our writing is already perfect and no one can help us improve it. Between my three pen names I have nearly 70 books published and you know what? I learn something new each and every single time I write another one, and each time my editor sends one along for revision. Every. Single. Time.

The publishing world HAS changed. Drastically. Agents and editors are no longer the only gatekeepers. People self-publish and self-edit, but guess what? That doesn't mean the writing is stellar. Unfortunately, MOST of the time it's pretty darn bad. Is every editor 100% correct? No. But learning the basics - learning the craft - is part of this game.

Agents and editors are in business to make money. If they don't believe they can sell it, they won't take a chance on it. Period. End of sentence. That's how the world of traditional publishing works and that's also why so many thumbed their noses at it and self-published.

My own writing is not perfect, nor will it ever be. I'm human. I accept that. But I also work very hard to constantly improve it. I take every single review to heart. Even the bad ones, and you'd better believe I get them. I take every single suggestion my editor gives me to heart. I may not change everything to suit her tastes, but we're talking fine points here, not glaring errors or sentence structure oddities. And as for reviews, even the mean-spirited ones often (usually) contain a kernel of truth.

So honestly… if you can't see the errors or faulty flow in your own writing yet, you're not ready to submit. And if you refuse to take critique about that, or refuse to put in the work to improve your writing, you're going to find this is a long, difficult road.

By all means keep writing, but buy, beg, or borrow some craft books. Take classes. Pick apart the books in your genre that you love to figure out how that author did it. How they pulled you into the story and kept you there. Try to emulate (not copy) that, then develop your own style. Find a beta reader. Not someone who will tell you what you want to hear, but someone who has been there and done that, and will give you no holds barred HONEST critique. And then be a strong enough person to take that critique and use it to improve.

Hope this helps. It's not meant to be mean, but merely honest.
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Of course no writer is going to make, as you say, Mrs. 70-Published-Book, "the worst mistake" as "to believe his or her writing is already perfect and no one can help him or her improve it." Simply, I distinguish between constructive criticism and a nasty expression of contempt. Et voilà mon p'tit coucou de Lausanne.
 
Lex Black said:
Wow. Not only did I only ever get rejections, I only got the lowest tiers of them in each case.
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Hi Lex, if you're courageous enough to admit getting nothing but rejections, you should also be courageous enough to pick up your writing again. You can self-publish (on Lulu.com, it's free) and see how to get an article published in a newspaper.
 
Lex Black said:
Nor did I ever feel they did, or imply they did. However:



I wish I could believe this, but I can't any longer. I spent 20 years doing nothing BUT learning how to write better, only to get the same copy/pasted form letters every single time. I gave up all hope of a writing career out of frustration so bad it nearly led to suicide. I cannot believe that, after all of that misery, and if it is true that they are reacting to a subjective market, I never once produced anything that wasn't worth at least a MIDDLE TIER "This isn't worth my time" form letter.

Especially not after, say, recent feedback from a Litopian, who was kind enough to look over my final effort, the one I mentioned on another thread that a writer/editor outright laughed in my face over. Our fellow Colonist's opinion was that the work needed some minor polishing, but might at least have been worth the time to read.

If that's the level of ability I managed to reach after a solid generation of dedicating myself to getting better, and the only thing I got was the bottom level "Kiss off" letters? No. They're playing games, and I'm done with them.
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I never truly got the point you were trying to make, until now, Lex. Thank you for still being here to support those just starting off down the gauntlet.
 
Monique GOLAY said:
Of course no writer is going to make, as you say, Mrs. 70-Published-Book, "the worst mistake" as "to believe his or her writing is already perfect and no one can help him or her improve it." Simply, I distinguish between constructive criticism and a nasty expression of contempt. Et voilà mon p'tit coucou de Lausanne.
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Monique, welcome to the Colony, by the way. Actually, I've seen plenty of writers make this mistake.

Aside from that, since you're obviously hurt by what an agent or editor said to you, and you felt it was nastiness, I'm a little surprised you'd resort to nasty name-calling of me. I detailed my experience in this industry to help put this in perspective and to let people know that I'm STILL learning this craft, not for any other reason. Perhaps you didn't mean "Mrs 70-Published Book" to be a snide remark? I don't know. You're the only one who does know that. But please don't do it again. This is a really nice place and people are only trying to help each other. Thanks.
 
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Lex Black said:
Nor did I ever feel they did, or imply they did. However:



I wish I could believe this, but I can't any longer. I spent 20 years doing nothing BUT learning how to write better, only to get the same copy/pasted form letters every single time. I gave up all hope of a writing career out of frustration so bad it nearly led to suicide. I cannot believe that, after all of that misery, and if it is true that they are reacting to a subjective market, I never once produced anything that wasn't worth at least a MIDDLE TIER "This isn't worth my time" form letter.

Especially not after, say, recent feedback from a Litopian, who was kind enough to look over my final effort, the one I mentioned on another thread that a writer/editor outright laughed in my face over. Our fellow Colonist's opinion was that the work needed some minor polishing, but might at least have been worth the time to read.

If that's the level of ability I managed to reach after a solid generation of dedicating myself to getting better, and the only thing I got was the bottom level "Kiss off" letters? No. They're playing games, and I'm done with them.
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Again, my post wasn't directed at anyone. Aside from that, I'm sorry you've been hurt in this business. If I could fix it I would, but I can't.
 
I didn't see any of the agents I submitted to on that list (that being said, it's probably because I'm pretty sure you said it was a list of publishers! :p) but what is the point in the tiers if the writer isn't aware of them? The rejection letters I've received have all been polite, but they're still rejections. I don't think the thought of it even being on a tier crossed my mind!
 
I find it hard to believe that these 'tiers' form some sort of universally accepted standard of rejection amongst agents. In any case, if their recipients are unaware of it then it's all rather pointless - at best, an in-joke.

The right writing from the right person submitted to the right person at the right time: there are far too many variables. Ultimately there are only two tiers, aren't there? Yes and No.
 
Bernard Stacey said:
I find it hard to believe that these 'tiers' form some sort of universally accepted standard of rejection amongst agents. In any case, if their recipients are unaware of it then it's all rather pointless - at best, an in-joke.

The right writing from the right person submitted to the right person at the right time: there are far too many variables. Ultimately there are only two tiers, aren't there? Yes and No.
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There are indeed so many variables that I sometimes tend to qualify the publishing industry as a "literary lotery." Well, it'd be a sort of lotery in which, hopefully, you might have more chance in forcing your destiny than in the Euromillion. My father said in his book called "Science and Absurdity" that we have all of us won the lotery to be alive on Earth, because you need so many variables for there to be life in the Universe. A consolation?
 
Monique GOLAY said:
all of us won the lotery to be alive on Earth, because you need so many variables for there to be life in the Universe. A consolation?
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Definitely.
If the worst thing that happens to me in my life is that none of my writing attracts an agent, then St Peter is going to have his work cut out wiping the smile off my face when I pitch up at the pearly gates.
 
It's certainly true that we shouldn't take rejection letters personally, they are first of all to be expected. Unfortunately they usually don't come with suggestions on improving out writing, but then that's what sites like this are for. I for one have learnt a lot from everyone here, it's the best way to grow as a writer. ;)
 
Tara Rose said:
You can't even imagine the times I've had people ask me for help, but when I was honest, they turned nasty. They didn't really want true help. They wanted someone to tell them they were already perfect.
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Yep! That's the truth! I got slammed by someone whose manuscript I recently critiqued. Silly me, I thought she wanted constructive criticism! I pay professional assessors to tear my stuff apart. It's not cheap, but no one else will actually tell me if it sucks and how I can improve it. I consider it professional development, and it's worth every penny!
 
Actually following on from Robinne's comments, I once read three chapters written by a friend who wanted advice. She commented that a friend of hers had already looked at it, but had trouble "getting into it." Well one chapter was enough, not one single character had a name even, they were all "he." Not only that but one paragraph would be about 2 or 3 characters. I gave some pointers, said it had potential, but that the characters needed description. I never did hear from her again! PS that was years ago ;)
 
Robinne and Alistair, I'm sorry you both had those experiences.

The thing about anyone looking over your work is that again you're only getting an opinion. You could show it to ten people and get ten different results, even among agents or editors. However, when you start getting consistent feedback from different people, then it might be time to give that aspect a second look.
 
To me it sounds as if any unpublished text is going to get an immense prejudice namely because it is unpublished. As soon as it pushes up through the stalagmitish slushpile to a less stalagmitish one, the prejudices against it vanish.
 
@Tara Rose, what is nice about getting those ten opinions (even if they are different and sometimes contradictory) is that, if they're being truthful and giving you detailed feedback, each one is going to (hopefully) provide some insight. I give early readers a questionnaire with provocative questions (e.g.: Where did you find yourself skimming instead of reading?, Which character would you ditch?, What was the stupidest dialogue in the book?) to elicit more than, "yeah, it was ok." I'm always surprised at what readers pick up on that I'm totally oblivious to (both good and bad stuff). Call me a glutton for punishment, but I love taking all those divergent opinions and coming up with an entirely new way of writing something that looks nothing like what anyone suggested, but is way better for having those opinions floating around in my head! Enough of that sort of thing and I might publish a book! (at least, that's what I hope ;) )
 
Robinne Weiss said:
@Tara Rose, what is nice about getting those ten opinions (even if they are different and sometimes contradictory) is that, if they're being truthful and giving you detailed feedback, each one is going to (hopefully) provide some insight. I give early readers a questionnaire with provocative questions (e.g.: Where did you find yourself skimming instead of reading?, Which character would you ditch?, What was the stupidest dialogue in the book?) to elicit more than, "yeah, it was ok." I'm always surprised at what readers pick up on that I'm totally oblivious to (both good and bad stuff). Call me a glutton for punishment, but I love taking all those divergent opinions and coming up with an entirely new way of writing something that looks nothing like what anyone suggested, but is way better for having those opinions floating around in my head! Enough of that sort of thing and I might publish a book! (at least, that's what I hope ;) )
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I think the questions are actually a great idea because it focuses their feedback on specifics that help you as a writer. When the Houses are up and running, maybe you could approach Agent Pete about adding a document with questions like that, to help guide others as they do critiques?

It's difficult to look at our own work objectively. Another pair (or ten!) of eyes on it helps us see the things we tend to overlook. :)
 
Tara Rose said:
I think the questions are actually a great idea because it focuses their feedback on specifics that help you as a writer. When the Houses are up and running, maybe you could approach Agent Pete about adding a document with questions like that, to help guide others as they do critiques?
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A good idea. I know I found a list somewhere online that started me off on providing questions for critiques...I can't seem to find that list again, but there are others out there:
https://killzoneblog.com/2014/06/15...-readers-and-to-focus-your-own-revisions.html
and
http://www.writersdigest.com/tip-of-the-day/the-top-3-critique-questions-you-should-ask-a-reviewer
 
Tara Rose said:
Monique, welcome to the Colony, by the way. Actually, I've seen plenty of writers make this mistake.

Aside from that, since you're obviously hurt by what an agent or editor said to you, and you felt it was nastiness, I'm a little surprised you'd resort to nasty name-calling of me. I detailed my experience in this industry to help put this in perspective and to let people know that I'm STILL learning this craft, not for any other reason. Perhaps you didn't mean "Mrs 70-Published Book" to be a snide remark? I don't know. You're the only one who does know that. But please don't do it again. This is a really nice place and people are only trying to help each other. Thanks.
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Hello Tara, I'm sorry I'm sometimes ironic, but I didn't mean to hurt. I do know I have a spiky character!
 
Robinne Weiss said:
A good idea. I know I found a list somewhere online that started me off on providing questions for critiques...I can't seem to find that list again, but there are others out there:
https://killzoneblog.com/2014/06/15...-readers-and-to-focus-your-own-revisions.html
and
http://www.writersdigest.com/tip-of-the-day/the-top-3-critique-questions-you-should-ask-a-reviewer
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These are both excellent lists of questions. It encompasses many of the critique questions I thought of on my own, and includes others that I didn't think to ask. Thanks very much Robinne!
 
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Emurelda

Trademarks, copyright, patents. Oh my!

  • Emurelda
  • Replies: 1
Carol Rose

Passive versus active voice chuckle I just saw posted on Facebook

  • Carol Rose
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