Question: Is Litopia for writers of literary fiction?

[Peyton Stafford]

Just asking. Or is its focus on genre fiction?

 

[CageSage]

First, another question: what do you mean by literary and genre?

A story is a story, creative non-fiction is still a story, but by labelling a story as literary doesn't give a reader much of a clue in terms of what the story's about or where it belongs in the schematics of a reading purpose.
More often than not, what I see when a writer labels their story as literary, the reader/agent thinks - unreadable/unsellable. Although there are markets/magazines/competitions that define their wares as literary, they also tend to theme their call for submissions.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

That was exactly my thinking, when I asked. Is Litopia for writers who may not be unreadable and unsellable? Just my impression of my own writing. Thank you for responding.

 

[CageSage]

That was exactly my thinking, when I asked. Is Litopia for writers who may not be unreadable and unsellable? Just my impression of my own writing. Thank you for responding.

Well, my aim is for readable and sellable. I may be working toward that aim for the rest of my life, but if I want people to read it, I need to understand and make clear what it is, what it's about, and who it's for.
Sounds simple. Isn't.

 

[CageSage]

So, the question begs - what is your impression of your own writing?

 

[Barbara]

Well, my best answer would be that Litopia's focus is on helping you become the writer you want to be, regardless of your genre. Litopia is for all writers who want to learn and improve their craft, and who appreciate the value of the give and take of a supportive community. The techniques of writing aren't all that different across genres because as Cage says, it's all story. I write thrillers, or at least I think I do, and yes, there are reader expectations that I need to meet to reach my target audience. But I've learnt tons from members here who are into fantasy, sifi, or romance etc. The writing groups are especially good. Getting feedback from readers even if they don't work in my genre is helpful. I've found cross genre feedback from our fantasy folk especially useful because the feedbacker looks at it from a non-thriller background. They don't look at "does she hit the thriller criteria', but instead, they look at 'does it work to hook the reader, does it engage, does it reach readers' emotions'. That's the true measure. I often think that if I can reach someone who doesn't normally read thrillers, then I've done good job.

I've learnt even more from giving feedback, not just by giving crit to other thriller writers but also across genres. Analysing other people's work, any work, makes you look at your own. Helping others here has opened my eyes to other genres, other styles etc and I think it has made me a richer writer.

Hopefully the result will be a sellable novel.

The idea here is to make you a good writer whose work is sellable whatever your chosen genre.

So yes, Litopia is for literary writers.

 

[Rich.]

Just asking. Or is its focus on genre fiction?

Hi Peyton, Litopia is for writers of all kinds, but it's true that many of our members write genre fiction. This place certainly has a commercial feel to it, in the sense that there is much discussion of publishing and how to navigate that sector, so it's true that there's not a great deal of experimental fiction here, but I'm sure such fiction would be welcome.

In short, literary vs genre isn't an opposition much considered here (many will tell you that 'literary' is a label applied by critics after the fact and not a category you write in).

Have you posted any of your stuff in the Writing Workshops? What kind of reaction did you get?

 

[Rich.]

PS: I was composing my message in fits and starts while making breakfast for the kids, so I hadn't read @Barbara's message when I posted mine. She said it better than me.

 

[Pamela Jo]

That was exactly my thinking, when I asked. Is Litopia for writers who may not be unreadable and unsellable? Just my impression of my own writing. Thank you for responding.

I think literary fiction is fiction that sells to a certain "literary" audience as defined today. I think yours fits into experimental. It still has an audience-just a small one. If you think about who were experimental in past eras you will see NOW they are considered literary. Virgina Wolfe, Frank Kafka, Jack Kerouac, etc... Even Mary Shelley. I think if you are writing to stretch minds, upturn archetypes , that sort of thing you will find experimental journals and magazines that will welcome you. Litopia because it's founded by an agent is going to be mainstream commercial focused. Agents have to sell books to be able to pay their bills. Probably the writers here are going to be self-selected for commercial. My goals are not only to be able to make some money, but to publicise the breed of horses that I preserve. If you make it clear you are going for something experimental and you don't care if it's commercial I think you can still get some value here. We just have to know your goals. I really liked your story about the slutty pixie. I think it's commercial for example. Maybe you would want to look for some erotic literature outlets. There are magazines and publishers out there. I used to write some erotic. There is much more scope for writing outside the lines there. The brain being a strange engine that operates our libidos. I can understand how you can feel a round peg among the squares, but there are different kinds of commercial. Just make sure we know who you want to sell to.

 

[izi 出久]

Hi Peyton, I know you are working on a high fantasy right now. I'm working on some kind of dark fantasy sci fi thing (haven't really figured out how to classify it just yet). There are some SFF writers in this group, but I've found that feedback from all writers and readers is helpful. When I receive feedback, I first revise the parts that EVERYONE has issue with. These are undeniable obstacles in the writing. Then I look at everything else. If one reader says he thought I was referring to sperm and I was certainly not, I will revise that part, even if no one else mentioned it . If one reader says she is confused, but I feel like it is not time to explain something, I don't change it--yet. I might revise it once my betas have read the entire ms and tell me the same thing. Keep in mind that all feedback is meant as a helping hand, not a tether. You can choose to disregard the bits that you don't want to change for a specific reason.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Yes, I get that. I just wanted to hear what the Litopia community thinks. Many people, myself included, write stories that fall into genres, but that also confront the big issues of life, as literary fiction purports to do.

For instance, my novel A Trembling Wind, is high fantasy, but it is also about finding oneself and one's power, about how power can corrupt and whether this is inevitable, and about how power relationships play out among people who love each others. I hope it is also a thrilling piece of escapism for people who need a think break from the daily news of pandemic and authoritarian aggression. Steven King certainly mastered this art, as did Danielle Steel. Oops, for forgot that Molliere fellow and Shakespeare.

Why did I ask about this? Because no one on Litopia, during the short time I have been a member, seemed concerned about language, about the words. The critiques I got were all about keeping action in front, dialogue next, and narration shunned. Like we were students in some undergraduate creative writing sham course. Actually, one of the critiques given did applaud alliteration.

Sorry if I am rambling. I have been sampling online critique groups, and I feel that the critiques from Litopia were not only the best I received, but that they came from writers with deeper knowledge of the craft than on other platforms. At the same time, I am trying to put all these online communities into perspective and figure out which one to focus on, since keeping up with more than one would not do that one justice.

Thanks, @CageSage.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I think literary fiction is fiction that sells to a certain "literary" audience as defined today. I think yours fits into experimental. It still has an audience-just a small one. If you think about who were experimental in past eras you will see NOW they are considered literary. Virgina Wolfe, Frank Kafka, Jack Kerouac, etc... Even Mary Shelley. I think if you are writing to stretch minds, upturn archetypes , that sort of thing you will find experimental journals and magazines that will welcome you. Litopia because it's founded by an agent is going to be mainstream commercial focused. Agents have to sell books to be able to pay their bills. Probably the writers here are going to be self-selected for commercial. My goals are not only to be able to make some money, but to publicise the breed of horses that I preserve. If you make it clear you are going for something experimental and you don't care if it's commercial I think you can still get some value here. We just have to know your goals. I really liked your story about the slutty pixie. I think it's commercial for example. Maybe you would want to look for some erotic literature outlets. There are magazines and publishers out there. I used to write some erotic. There is much more scope for writing outside the lines there. The brain being a strange engine that operates our libidos. I can understand how you can feel a round peg among the squares, but there are different kinds of commercial. Just make sure we know who you want to sell to.

Thanks, my dear. Actually, I have written some erotic fiction. A colleague who is well known from her juvenile and YA curriculum-based nonfiction mentioned that she brings in some income from writing erotica.

 

[CageSage]

My two cents:
Every story is a metaphor on some aspect of life. GRR based GoT on the War of the Roses, but the general theme is about how family comes first, and what it takes for family to 'win the game of thrones' [always a high price to pay along the way]. Still as relevant today when looking at what people in power do [when they finally get busted].

The lovely play on words you mention is often something done for the benefit of the writer.
[yes, I do enjoy them, and I write them, but I've discovered a limit per story to keep the focus on the end-user, not myself - except for the planning and first draft stages, where I'm practicing the perspective of the character and the words they'd use so tend to go absolutely wild with words, especially kinky [as in twisted, visualising and clarifying] verbs].
Darlings, I've heard them called, and people kill them. Not all of them, but all the ones that sound too writerly, too gaudy [the 'look at me, look at what I can do' stuff], and likely out of character. Those special shapings and plays on language must support the story, rather than light up the text as 'different' from the story purpose.
As a reader, I want to experience the story, not the self-aggrandisement of the author [not even my own, if they detract from the story].

Which other sites are you dabbling in? I used critters.org for a long time [until I hurt my hands and couldn't keep up the workload], and two others [both of which were useless but now ask for payment].

 

[izi 出久]

Why did I ask about this? Because no one on Litopia, during the short time I have been a member, seemed concerned about language, about the words. The critiques I got were all about keeping action in front, dialogue next, and narration shunned. Like we were students in some undergraduate creative writing sham course. Actually, one of the critiques given did applaud alliteration.

This is probably because if someone is critiquing your work and feels there are some big reworks to do structure-wise, they will not waste your time going over all the words. Those words are likely to change somewhat in the rework. But if there is very little rework to be done, people tend to give more feedback on word choice. At least that's my experience, both as someone who receives and gives feedback.

 

[RK Wallis]

Yes, I get that. I just wanted to hear what the Litopia community thinks. Many people, myself included, write stories that fall into genres, but that also confront the big issues of life, as literary fiction purports to do.

For instance, my novel A Trembling Wind, is high fantasy, but it is also about finding oneself and one's power, about how power can corrupt and whether this is inevitable, and about how power relationships play out among people who love each others. I hope it is also a thrilling piece of escapism for people who need a think break from the daily news of pandemic and authoritarian aggression. Steven King certainly mastered this art, as did Danielle Steel. Oops, for forgot that Molliere fellow and Shakespeare.

Why did I ask about this? Because no one on Litopia, during the short time I have been a member, seemed concerned about language, about the words. The critiques I got were all about keeping action in front, dialogue next, and narration shunned. Like we were students in some undergraduate creative writing sham course. Actually, one of the critiques given did applaud alliteration.

Sorry if I am rambling. I have been sampling online critique groups, and I feel that the critiques from Litopia were not only the best I received, but that they came from writers with deeper knowledge of the craft than on other platforms. At the same time, I am trying to put all these online communities into perspective and figure out which one to focus on, since keeping up with more than one would not do that one justice.

Thanks, @CageSage.

For me, I'd credit Pete for the way I critique (as I'm sure everyone else does). It's this https://colony.litopia.com/threads/...-giving-and-receiving-writing-critiques.5798/ and Pete really says it all. I've found by applying methods Pete uses with his authors, it has helped me figure out what I need to do with my own stuff It's a boon to have an agent in your corner I've been to heaps of online forums too, and rather than picking on the writing (which could ruin emerging voices), Litopia question ways that can help strengthen your story.

 

[Barbara]

I second everyhing @RK Capps says above.

Plus, it's hard to give feedback on language or word choice because the word choice is your individual style. Personally, I don't crit individual words unless something is totally off because 1: I'm not an native English speaker so I'm still learning the nuances of language and 2: because it takes a lot of time going through text with a comb and my life is fairly busy, and 3: because I prefer for people find their style themselves. And the style comes from you. From your soul. It is YOU. It is your writing. You chose the words. As an author we choose the best words for a sentence that expresses what we want to put across in a way we want to put it across. I don't want to styfle that. You need to discover that yourself. It's part of discovering how to do that writng malarkey.

Also when you eventually publish, the MS will go through various editing stages, and stuff like that will be looked at by someone who does it all day every day. If you're self publishing, I recommend hiring someone who does that so you can get the MS in tip top shape.

I agree with Stacey when she says:

This is probably because if someone is critiquing your work and feels there are some big reworks to do structure-wise, they will not waste your time going over all the words. Those words are likely to change somewhat in the rework. But if there is very little rework to be done, people tend to give more feedback on word choice. At least that's my experience, both as someone who receives and gives feedback.

Giving feedback does take time. People on here are doing for free what an editing service would charge for. I have had very detailed feedback and discussions here in the writing groups but mainly via PMs because really nitty gritty detailed feedback takes a hec a lot of time; time we now don't spend on our own work. Most of us have full time jobs. Litopia isn't a critique site. It's a community where we discuss writing. Of course you get crit (as you have experienced), but the detailed chewing over of work, happens via forming relationships. I've got good friends on here. Talented friends. Generous, supportive, lovley friends. We discuss work. Theirs. Mine. If I have a specific problem with a scene, or if I need eyes on chunks of my MS, our friendship is such that I can send it to them and discuss it until I'm happy. The back and forth chat can go on a for a while. It's usually detailed. It always provides me with what I need, and what I need can be varied. But, and this is the important bit, I also do that for them. Because I realise what they do for me. I respect the time and brain effort it takes. A thank you goes along way. They can come to me anytime and I help them, discuss their issues with them. I didn't just start with sending them my work with the words 'can you help'. We became friends organically by interacting and liking each other, then we started to exchange work.

So what I'm saying is, you will get what you put in here. If you just put your work up and expect feedback you will get feedback. But if you nurture others and their work, they WILL nurture you.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Thanks, everyone, for your insights. I feel more at home, here, all the time. For now, I should get back to writing and revising...

 

[Eva Ulian]

@Peyton Stafford I do think you should come to our Huddle live meetings. Since your question is quite unusual, you in particular would benefit from what goes on there. You are attracted to the deeper life of writing (literature), knowing people will never pick up one of your books unless you make it palatable. I have learnt an amazing amount on writing by interacting with other writers but mostly @AgentPete. Normally, writers groups are more or less a pool where the blind are leading the blind- having an agent who knows pretty much how the publishing world works is a different thing entirely. I'm looking forward to seeing you there. The Huddle Hangout

 

[Dorm Ant]

I'm currently working on a self help/positive thinking/graphic novel/Zen Buddhist wisdom/practical guide to guinea pig care.

Will it sell? Buggered if I know. Is it "commercial"? Dunno, but half the first print run is reserved/pre-ordered/crowdfunded already, so some people trust me to crack on.

Point is: write what you love, though don't turn into a self-indulgent wanker, and feel the spirit of the age, and you'll be reet.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I'm currently working on a self help/positive thinking/graphic novel/Zen Buddhist wisdom/practical guide to guinea pig care.

Will it sell? Buggered if I know. Is it "commercial"? Dunno, but half the first print run is reserved/pre-ordered/crowdfunded already, so some people trust me to crack on.

Point is: write what you love, though don't turn into a self-indulgent wanker, and feel the spirit of the age, and you'll be reet.
View attachment 11459

Lovely idea, and I like the illustration. Please count me in on people who want to follow the story's development. I think we all need some self help/positive thinking/Zen wisdom, and God knows we all have guinea pigs in our care, including ourselves. I especially love the irony of starring animals that symbolize helpless creatures abused during experiments performed by fiends who imagine that their atrocities contribute something necessary to human life. You know about the Jansenists? About saleability, I work in children's publishing, and if you do this well, it will be a darling among children's librarians. They are always looking for books to teach children the virtues of love and compassion. Regarding the inciting event of my original question about literary fiction, Alice in Wonderland and Where the Wild Things Are were published as children's books. Do not think that because your main characters are helpless animals, and your audience seems to be children (or the parents who buy books for them), that your book will never be considered as literary. Just keep writing. History (and English teachers) will decide the book's ultimate fate. In the short run, the moms and dads and kids will make the decision of whether they want the book in their homes, and (especially for the children) how many times mom and dad have to read it aloud.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

@Peyton Stafford I do think you should come to our Huddle live meetings. Since your question is quite unusual, you in particular would benefit from what goes on there. You are attracted to the deeper life of writing (literature), knowing people will never pick up one of your books unless you make it palatable. I have learnt an amazing amount on writing by interacting with other writers but mostly @AgentPete. Normally, writers groups are more or less a pool where the blind are leading the blind- having an agent who knows pretty much how the publishing world works is a different thing entirely. I'm looking forward to seeing you there. The Huddle Hangout

Thank you, Eva. I was able to attend a huddle, and I enjoyed it and your insights. However, because of time zone differences, most weeks I cannot. In my time zone, the huddles occur on Saturday mornings. This is family time, time for long breakfasts, time for detailed discussions of work issues, of homework, of video games, literature, and the coming week. I live in Oregon, on the West Coast of the USA, and we are watching as the Omicron BA2 infections mount. I wish the best to you and to everyone in Italy. Let's stay connected through Litopia.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Oh, so sorry, Peyton, I do remember you now- Indeed, you did come a week ago or so, but I didn't connect that you are the same person! I understand why it would be difficult for you to come to the Huddles, however, I'd be quite happy to pass on to you what I have learnt from the others but Pete in particular.

I tend to bend towards "literary" fiction, but that is a most complicated market to break into. However, what is important is you should first find your voice and then decide how to label it. And finding your voice usually comes through when you write without outside influence- in order words, without external editing.

 

[Eva Ulian]

I'd be quite happy to pass on to you what I have learnt from the others but Pete in particular

BTW So as to clarify- this does not mean I am going to pass on info from the Huddle- since that has to remain in the Huddle but my own views which have been formed by interacting with Pete and other members in this whole website.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

BTW So as to clarify- this does not mean I am going to pass on info from the Huddle- since that has to remain in the Huddle but my own views which have been formed by interacting with Pete and other members in this whole website.

Yes, I understand, and thank you.