Craft Chat Help please-POV

[Ronnnie]

I am writing a YA Supernatural thriller called Death's Child. I recently took part in a writer's workshop and was told I could only write from the protagonist's point of view. If he isn't there, I shouldn't write it because it is outside his knowledge. Is this correct? One person said I'd been influenced by TV and books don;t work the same way. I am now questioning everything.
I would really appreciate some guidance please.
Thanks
Ronnie

 

[James Charles]

I am writing a YA Supernatural thriller called Death's Child. I recently took part in a writer's workshop and was told I could only write from the protagonist's point of view. If he isn't there, I shouldn't write it because it is outside his knowledge. Is this correct? One person said I'd been influenced by TV and books don;t work the same way. I am now questioning everything.
I would really appreciate some guidance please.
Thanks
Ronnie

Normally, it's okay to have another POV if it's in a separate section or chapter; not within the same. There is no rule as to how many POV's you can have within your book, but most agree you should not have more than two, maybe three POV's; i.e. the MC and one or two supporting characters.

 

[Ronnnie]

Normally, it's okay to have another POV if it's in a separate section or chapter; not within the same. There is no rule as to how many POV's you can have within your book, but most agree you should not have more than two, maybe three POV's; i.e. the MC and one or two supporting characters.

That is so helpful, thanks James.

 

[LJ Beck]

This book is great.

Characters & Viewpoint

Vivid and memorable characters aren't born: they have t…

www.goodreads.com

 

[Ronnnie]

This book is great.

Characters & Viewpoint

Vivid and memorable characters aren't born: they have t…

www.goodreads.com

Just ordered it, thanks.

 

[Jake E]

You know, I'm really fucking tired of people telling other people how to write. If you want more than one POV, have more than one POV. It takes more skill to get it to work, but no one should be telling you you can't do it.

If it's good enough for Brando Sando, Sir Terry, and Phillip Pullman, it's good enough for you.

Sorry, rant over. Carry on.

J

 

[Ronnnie]

You know, I'm really fucking tired of people telling other people how to write. If you want more than one POV, have more than one POV. It takes more skill to get it to work, but no one should be telling you you can't do it.

If it's good enough for Brando Sando, Sir Terry, and Phillip Pullman, it's good enough for you.

Sorry, rant over. Carry on.

J

Thanks Jake. I went back and rewrote huge sections of my book because of it. I'm not making the same mistake this time.

 

[Hannah Faoileán]

I am writing a YA Supernatural thriller called Death's Child. I recently took part in a writer's workshop and was told I could only write from the protagonist's point of view. If he isn't there, I shouldn't write it because it is outside his knowledge. Is this correct? One person said I'd been influenced by TV and books don;t work the same way. I am now questioning everything.
I would really appreciate some guidance please.
Thanks
Ronnie

If you're writing in first person POV (inside your protagonist's head) or close third person POV (on your protagonist's shoulder) and your protagonist leads the chapter then your workshop people are correct: your reader can't know anything the protagonist can't know/see/smell etc. Both these POV options are presently the most common (and most expected) in the YA sphere.

Keeping within these options, there are many YA novels that, as @James Charles said, use different POVs in different chapters. That way, your second (or even third but don't do too many) point of view character(s) can reveal things your protagonist doesn't know. It can be a good way to build tension (though knowing only as much or as little as the protagonist can still be high stakes and allow for big reveals). Be consistent though. Your reader wants to identify with the viewpoint character(s), so if you use more than one, you need to use them regularly throughout the book.

Published examples of multiple POV use in YA are All The Hidden Monsters by Amie Jordan (supernatural whodunnit with two POV), One of Us is Lying by Karen M. McManus (contemporary whodunnit with multiple POV), Children of Blood and Bone by Tomi Adeyemi (YA Fantasy with three POV). There are, of course, a lot more examples.

My advice is play around with single POV or more than one (separated by chapters) and choose whichever creates the most tension for the reader. Your reader wants immersion, tension, conflict and high stakes. Choose which gives them the most of those.

(I've played around with one or two for my present WIP and found that only knowing what the protagonist knows keeps the reader guessing more which increases the anticipation of things going wrong at every turn and heightens the big midpoint reveal. That is, of course, this one story. For others I might choose multiple POV.)

 

[Jake E]

If you're writing in first person POV (inside your protagonist's head) or close third person POV (on your protagonist's shoulder) and your protagonist leads the chapter then your workshop people are correct: your reader can't know anything the protagonist can't know/see/smell etc. Both these POV options are presently the most common (and most expected) in the YA sphere.

Keeping within these options, there are many YA novels that, as @James Charles said, use different POVs in different chapters. That way, your second (or even third but don't do too many) point of view character(s) can reveal things your protagonist doesn't know. It can be a good way to build tension (though knowing only as much or as little as the protagonist can still be high stakes and allow for big reveals). Be consistent though. Your reader wants to identify with the viewpoint character(s), so if you use more than one, you need to use them regularly throughout the book.

Published examples of multiple POV use in YA are All The Hidden Monsters by Amie Jordan (supernatural whodunnit with two POV), One of Us is Lying by Karen M. McManus (contemporary whodunnit with multiple POV), Children of Blood and Bone by Tomi Adeyemi (YA Fantasy with three POV). There are, of course, a lot more examples.

My advice is play around with single POV or more than one (separated by chapters) and choose whichever creates the most tension for the reader. Your reader wants immersion, tension, conflict and high stakes. Choose which gives them the most of those.

(I've played around with one or two for my present WIP and found that only knowing what the protagonist knows keeps the reader guessing more which increases the anticipation of things going wrong at every turn and heightens the big midpoint reveal. That is, of course, this one story. For others I might choose multiple POV.)

I agree with all of the above. Some stories are better with just one POV, some are better with multiple. It's up to you as the author to decide which to go for.

There should also be an obvious break to show that a new POV has been entered. Either using a page break or a new chapter for third person, and ideally a whole new chapter in first person. Head hopping is a writing sin for a reason...

 

[Rich.]

Head hopping is a writing sin for a reason...

Unless you're writing an omniscient narrator. Just sayin'

I appreciate that we're discussing YA, where omniscient isn't common (but not unheard of).

This book is great.

Characters & Viewpoint

Vivid and memorable characters aren't born: they have t…

www.goodreads.com

Yep!

 

[RK Wallis]

Hey @Ronnnie

Here's an old Craft Chat discussion if you want to delve further into the topic:

Craft Chat Thread 'FEB – POINT OF VIEW'

Feb 4, 2022

Authors: ED, GALADRIEL, RACHEL


Welcome to this month’s Craft Chat: POINT OF VIEW. As before, the discussion thread will be open for FIVE DAYS from when we post the Chat. Let us know your thoughts and experiences. If you disagree with anything, that’s fine. Tell us why. All opinions are welcome and valid additions to our learning. Keep it civil. Kay wouldn’t want to have to send the boys round.
Rachel, Galadriel, Andy, Ed, GB Hunt, Kay (Ancora Imparo)

POINT OF VIEW
POV refers to the perspective of who is telling the story. It's the person's head we're in when we're reading...

• Ancora Imparo
• Replies: 37
• Forum: Café Life

• 
• 

IMHO, Omniscient is a whole new craft skill - a master skill

Cheers
Rachel

 

[Sedayne]

You know, I'm really fucking tired of people telling other people how to write.

Yep - if it works it works.
As long as it does work. And we can ask Litopians whether it works or not; they'll tell us straight.
As long as it isn't unnecessarily confusing, I love a multi-POV novel.

IMHO, Omniscient is a whole new craft skill - a master skill

Absolutely agree. It's not head-hopping. And it's really difficult to do well. I heard an interview with Ruth Ozeki saying she's never been able to master omniscient POV, and I thought, if she can't do it, there's not much hope for the rest of us.
The skill is to be able to give that omniscient view of the story as a whole without distancing the reader. The World According to Garp (John Irving) is the best modern example I can think of. For classic stuff, look to Dickens.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Aw, I'm sorry that happened to you. I had the same thing done to me when I started out.
It boils down to telling kids to use training wheels to learn to balance the bike. It makes it easier for some kids, other kids get on, fall down, repeat until they get the hang of it. You pay money for a seminar and they feel they have to give you something to take to the bank. Caveat Emptor. There's a lot of profit in selling shovels to goldminers, far more than the majority of goldminers ever see.

 

[Jake E]

There's a lot of profit in selling shovels to goldminers, far more than the majority of goldminers ever see.

This is a summation of the entire indie industry, sadly.

 

[RK Wallis]

the best modern example I can think of.

and a fantasy example is Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean M. Auel. Sublime omniscient. She's a master. You don't notice the POV shifts (unless you're looking for them and then you just think WOW!).

 

[Jake E]

and a fantasy example is Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean M. Auel. Sublime omniscient. She's a master. You don't notice the POV shifts (unless you're looking for them and then you just think WOW!).

I read that recently. Has been gathering dust on my bookshelf for years (inherited it when my nan died) I decided to give it a read just before Christmas.
So well done omniscient POV, and a good story too.

 

[Sedayne]

You don't notice the POV shifts

That's the key with all of it, isn't it? It's poor writing that we notice, the brilliant stuff just sweeps us away.
I'd say with omniscient, there aren't any POV shifts anyway, or there shouldn't be. It's all from that one oversight.

I've just been reading about Clan of the Cave Bear and am intrigued. That's some serious historical fiction and well-researched by the sound of it.

 

[Rich.]

I'd say with omniscient, there aren't any POV shifts anyway, or there shouldn't be. It's all from that one oversight.

Kind of. [I may be about to split some hairs] An omniscient narrator is another character in the story. They may loom critically-large over the narrative, or simply provide neutral access to a variety of minds, but they do tend to adopt some of the vocabulary and phrasing of the mind they are currently accessing – a zooming-in effect that can be the same, for a time, as limited third person. So I think there are POV shifts in an story with an omniscient narrator, but the shifts are fluid, or at least intentional.

 

[Jake E]

Kind of. [I may be about to split some hairs] An omniscient narrator is another character in the story. They may loom critically-large over the narrative, or simply provide neutral access to a variety of minds, but they do tend to adopt some of the vocabulary and phrasing of the mind they are currently accessing – a zooming-in effect that can be the same, for a time, as limited third person. So I think there are POV shifts in an story with an omniscient narrator, but the shifts are fluid, or at least intentional.

Dune is like that. Zooming in and out of different characters thoughts and perspectives, but keeping the 'view' on everyone at once.