What's the point of a traditional publishing deal, anyway?

[KateESal]

This blog post has stirred up strong feelings among writers on Bluesky.

TL;DR it talks about how authors are increasingly expected to do the work that was once the publisher's remit, and how the Big 4 or 5 publishers are being swamped by submissions from myriads of unqualified literary agents, such that they can't get through their bulging inboxes. It asks the question: what are publishers actually doing to earn their commission, when so much of it is being farmed back to the authors, and what role are literary agents playing?

There seems to be mounting frustration among traditionally published authors, particularly those on the "mid list", with increasing numbers choosing self-publishing on the grounds that if they're doing so much of the work, they might as well get all the profit.

I must admit, my own dream of getting a traditional deal hasn't survived contact with the realities of the publishing industry, although I haven't given up hope yet.

Any views on this @AgentPete ?

 

[TimRees]

I had to ask what is a moodboard on BlueSky.... Shows how out of the loop I am....

Encantada de conocerte, Kate.

 

[AgentPete]

Hey @KateESal

Ah well, some truth, some exaggeration...

TL;DR it talks about how authors are increasingly expected to do the work that was once the publisher's remit,

Been the case for a long time, especially as it relates to the mid-list author. nothing very new here.

and how the Big 4 or 5 publishers are being swamped by submissions from myriads of unqualified literary agents, such that they can't get through their bulging inboxes.

This is an exaggeration. However, literally anyone can call themselves a lit agent, experienced or not. Generally, they will not stick around more than a year or two, the economics are tough for newcomers. A lot of newish agents are former publishers, rightly or wrongly.

It asks the question: what are publishers actually doing to earn their commission, when so much of it is being farmed back to the authors, and what role are literary agents playing?

They’re doing the stuff that most authors don’t want to do - editing, marketing to variable effect, doing rights deals (usually pretty well), and lets not forget – giving authors money up front!

Agents – more of a mixed bag. Paradoxically given my comment above, you will tend to more attention / more hard work from newer agents. They need to do the deals. The older ones (and I mean decades) have the money rolling in in any case.

There seems to be mounting frustration among traditionally published authors, particularly those on the "mid list", with increasing numbers choosing self-publishing on the grounds that if they're doing so much of the work, they might as well get all the profit.

That’s been a trend for a few years now, and in many cases it’s the right decision. But let’s not underestimate how hard it can be, too. Most authors just want to write, not run a publishing business!

I must admit, my own dream of getting a traditional deal hasn't survived contact with the realities of the publishing industry, although I haven't given up hope yet.

Well, they will be very interested in any author who develops a strong reader base with proven sales. In which case, of course, why would you return to a traditional publisher? It does happen, in fact. Authors “cross back” to traditional publishing from self-pub. And there are sometimes good reasons to do so. But it’s not an easy transition, and not always successful.

The whole industry is in a state of flux. Exciting, worrying, confusing.

Watch this space...

 

[KateESal]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, @AgentPete — always illuminating!

Most authors just want to write, not run a publishing business!

Very true! I suspect that's what's leading to the frustration from writers who are finding more online/public-facing marketing is expected of them than they would like from the entity taking a percentage of their earnings.

However, as you rightly point out, authors end up doing all of that if they self-pub, along with the faffery of cover creation, book formatting, ISBN registering and all the other administrative and back office tasks required to publish a book. On the plus side, the author gets to keep more of the profits, on the minus side, they probably make less money overall because they have less distributive reach and clout than the big publishing houses when it comes to reaching potential readers.

Incidentally, I've just had the first bulk order of my YA thriller the face that pins you for use as a secondary school class reader. Very exciting!

Encantada de conocerte, Kate.

Igualmente Tim

 

[BrianY]

Speaking as someone who has written (and photographed!) for mid-list publishers for more than two decades, I would say that the blog post you're talking about has no grounding in my reality. In my universe most books in retail stores don't come from the "big 5" and almost none are self-published. Instead, at least 80% of them come from companies that advocates of self-publishing vilify. Amish romances, auto repair manuals, literary novels, travel guides, cookbooks, gardening references and more originate from the evil middle.

My choice is simple - front a large sum of money and spend my time obsessed with marketing, or go with a publisher that gets books in stores and solid search engine rankings online.

 

[Roz Morris]

Speaking as someone who has written (and photographed!) for mid-list publishers for more than two decades, I would say that the blog post you're talking about has no grounding in my reality. In my universe most books in retail stores don't come from the "big 5" and almost none are self-published. Instead, at least 80% of them come from companies that advocates of self-publishing vilify. Amish romances, auto repair manuals, literary novels, travel guides, cookbooks, gardening references and more originate from the evil middle.

My choice is simple - front a large sum of money and spend my time obsessed with marketing, or go with a publisher that gets books in stores and solid search engine rankings online.

So many things to respond to in this thread! Brian, your point about books in retail stores... the self-publishing business model works in quite a different way from the traditional publishing model.
Traditional publishing has print runs, which means a lower unit cost for the book, which means they can give the kinds of discounts that bookstores need. Self-publishers tend to use print on demand, which means one book is printed when someone orders it. That means they don't have to pay thousands for a pallet of books and they don't have to warehouse them - but the unit cost is much higher and they can't offer the discounts that traditional publishers can. Traditional publishing also has reps that go around bookstores taking pre-orders, talking up the titles that will be coming in the next few months, explaining what publicity they'll be getting, so that the bookstores know that readers will already want them. Self-publishers don't have sales reps!
So... where do self-publishers sell their books? The majority are online. There's no need to hold stock, many of the sales are ebooks anyway. And publicity can be generated by the author themselves, with advertising.

It's more complicated than that of course, and advertising isn't exactly simple, but that is the long answer to the short question of.... why aren't bookshops full of self-published books. But it doesn't mean self-publishers aren't selling many books.

 

[Roz Morris]

I'd like to see traditional publishers offering more enlightened deals to authors who know about self-publishing. For instance, publishers insist on doing the production/cover design etc, but they're not always best at it, and some authors are much better at getting these jobs done in a way that suits their book. But where a publisher can really offer value is in their influence. Books sell by relationships. A publisher has relationships with influential people who will introduce your book to the right people.... in an ideal world. Those relationships go back for decades. That's worth partnering with a publisher for.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I'd like to see traditional publishers offering more enlightened deals to authors who know about self-publishing. For instance, publishers insist on doing the production/cover design etc, but they're not always best at it, and some authors are much better at getting these jobs done in a way that suits their book. But where a publisher can really offer value is in their influence. Books sell by relationships. A publisher has relationships with influential people who will introduce your book to the right people.... in an ideal world. Those relationships go back for decades. That's worth partnering with a publisher for.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

But what is the point of being a traditional publisher if you refuse to deal with changing times?

 

[TimRees]

@AgentPete is right, publishing is a very changing world. Paperback was an earthquake in publishing, that opened a very wide barn door to second-hand books where the author doesn't earn any royalty for his or her efforts. Publishing is a nightmare.

But we'll get through this period where trad publishers think they hold all the cards, because we, the authors, are the true creators. We fill the blank pages upon which the industry feeds.

I'm still going to pursue the route of trad-publishing because, as Roz explains, they have the advantage of distribution. Getting the novel under the noses of readers remains key. But times are a-changing... As authors we need to understand the business of publishing better, which is where Litopia and like-minded groups, can come in.

Our audience is fragmenting. Everything today is niche because of keywords and the reach of social media. If you could reach your niche audience with the key words necessary to grab the attention of targeted readers, what would those key words be? ... That is the simple secret to the book market today...

This thread has inspired me....

 

[BrianY]

Traditional publishing has print runs, which means a lower unit cost for the book, which means they can give the kinds of discounts that bookstores need. Self-publishers tend to use print on demand, which means one book is printed when someone orders it. That means they don't have to pay thousands for a pallet of books and they don't have to warehouse them - but the unit cost is much higher and they can't offer the discounts that traditional publishers can. Traditional publishing also has reps that go around bookstores taking pre-orders, talking up the titles that will be coming in the next few months, explaining what publicity they'll be getting, so that the bookstores know that readers will already want them. Self-publishers don't have sales reps!
So... where do self-publishers sell their books? The majority are online. There's no need to hold stock, many of the sales are ebooks anyway. And publicity can be generated by the author themselves, with advertising.

It's more complicated than that of course, and advertising isn't exactly simple, but that is the long answer to the short question of.... why aren't bookshops full of self-published books. But it doesn't mean self-publishers aren't selling many books.

Roz, I've read this a few times and I don't understand. I'm hoping that if I spell out the parts that baffle me, you'll help clarify.

The first is bulk printing vs print-on-demand. When it comes to cookbooks and travel guides, the quality of printing that bulk offers is far better. Put side by side (as often happens at book fairs), the commercially printed books win every time. When you order (demand?) those self-published books and you get an obviously inferior product in return, how do you deal with customer disappointment?

Next is selling online. In my experience, every online purchase, no matter what it is, begins with a keyword-driven database search and vendors will have to rank products with the same keywords. If you have a thousand fantasy sagas or a thousand pizza cookbooks, who controls which one comes up first? If you come up below the first page, no amount of great editing, marketing, or cover design will change things. How do you deal with this?

When it comes to e-books, what percentage of books sold are e-books? And is this number going up or down?

I would like to crack these issues and give self-publishing a try, but there are too many aspects of it I don't understand. Please help me with this.

****
To slightly change the subject. In my experience, every employee at every publisher knows about self-publishing in 2024. The self-publishing message - often loaded with falsehoods - is relentlessly promoted everywhere writers (and photographers) go. And yet, nobody mentions the vast majority of possibilities that aren't self-publishing and aren't big five and an agent either.

 

[Roz Morris]

The first is bulk printing vs print-on-demand. When it comes to cookbooks and travel guides, the quality of printing that bulk offers is far better. Put side by side (as often happens at book fairs), the commercially printed books win every time. When you order (demand?) those self-published books and you get an obviously inferior product in return, how do you deal with customer disappointment?

Brian, yes, you're right. Books with a lot of artwork are much better if they're printed in bulk. But books that are just text, or text and line illustrations, are pretty good with print on demand.
How to deal with customer disappointment? Get proof copies before you publish.

Next is selling online. In my experience, every online purchase, no matter what it is, begins with a keyword-driven database search and vendors will have to rank products with the same keywords. If you have a thousand fantasy sagas or a thousand pizza cookbooks, who controls which one comes up first? If you come up below the first page, no amount of great editing, marketing, or cover design will change things. How do you deal with this?

Ah yes, welcome to the world of advertising. Amazon and other platforms have made a fortune out of creating advert systems where authors bid to be the top result. It's highly hit and miss until you learn what works for your kind of book. It sometimes is a hiding to nothing for some authors, so we try to get noticed by other methods. You're absolutely right. It's almost like a lottery. But it's the same lottery for trade-published authors too as their books are all swimming in the same sea.

When it comes to e-books, what percentage of books sold are e-books? And is this number going up or down?

I'm not sure of the actual figures, but ebook sales are huge. And that's just the numbers that are counted. Many are never seen by the likes of Nielsen (which monitors book sales) because they're sold without ISBNs. Amazon, for instance, doesn't require an ebook to have an ISBN, it uses its own system of numbering and it doesn't reveal the sales figures. But ebooks are a serious part of the book economy.

The self-publishing message - often loaded with falsehoods - is relentlessly promoted everywhere writers (and photographers) go.

It's like Marmite, isn't it? Some people love it. Some people don't.

In actuality, trade and self-publishing aren't much different. In both, authors have to do a lot of tasks they didn't bargain for, that they rightly think are the expertise of other professionals - such as marketing and promotions. A trade publisher might give you a start, but you have to then be lucky to see much result from that after a few months. Your shelf life as a trade-published author isn't very long - and especially not in brick-and-mortar bookshops, unless you're one of the lucky ones.

There are reasonably respectable studies now that show trade-published authors earn less than self-published authors - though it's early days and there is much more to discover. For instance, these surveys may not have asked how many hours per week the authors are spending on promoting their books. There may be misapprehensions, but probably not falsehoods, as such. But a lot more questions should be asked to compare the two in a fair way.

 

[KateESal]

This has been a fascinating discussion, many thanks to @AgentPete @Roz Morris @BrianY @TimRees and everyone else who has contributed their thoughts and expertise on the subject so far!

It sometimes is a hiding to nothing for some authors, so we try to get noticed by other methods.

Yes, being spotted in the dense forest of books by passing readers online is hit and miss, unless you have the time, energy and wherewithal to devote to your marketing.
Roz, in your case, had you built up a readership for your novels through your writing /editing tuition, or do you feel you've had more marketing success through other means?

Personally, I've found the greatest number of sales have come from situations where the reading public sees me in the flesh with a pile of my books to hand! That, and slow but steady word-of-mouth recommendations by those who've read and enjoyed the story. I totally understand that authors don't necessarily want to be performers, but clearly, getting yourself "out there" is a powerful marketing tool.

 

[BrianY]

I love the marmite metaphor - people who know it either love it or hate it and not one of them in a thousand knows what's in it - exactly like online search algorithms.

It looks like I'm becoming something of an advocate for those uncategorized publishers that aren't small or university presses and aren't among the big 5; I've done nine books that way over twenty years and am pretty grateful.

 

[Roz Morris]

Roz, in your case, had you built up a readership for your novels through your writing /editing tuition, or do you feel you've had more marketing success through other means?

A bit of everything! I started self-publishing in 2009 when there weren't many of us around. I already knew all the editorial 'trades' so I had a head start in creating professional-looking books. And I'd done my apprenticeship in writing craft - first as a ghostwriter, then as an editor for Cornerstones. So my books looked right and I built a bit of a presence through my writing advice blog. The people who liked that became curious about my fiction too.

Then it was just a question of sticking around and doing more work!

Personally, I've found the greatest number of sales have come from situations where the reading public sees me in the flesh with a pile of my books to hand! That, and slow but steady word-of-mouth recommendations by those who've read and enjoyed the story. I totally understand that authors don't necessarily want to be performers, but clearly, getting yourself "out there" is a powerful marketing tool.

Me too! Definitely. Advertising hasn't been very effective for me. But if I can get in front of people - on a podcast or at a real-life event - I sell books. And word of mouth is absolutely our lifeblood.

I'm also lucky that I've now been 'adopted' by a small press. They love my work and they've added it to their online catalogue, exactly as I published it. I like their authors too so we're all one big family who support each other. We're holding an online reading event next week to showcase some of our work. I also interview their authors - as many as I have time to do justice to - and publish those interviews on my blog. Personal connections are the most effective for my kind of book. Glad it's working for you too!

 

[BrianY]

Roz, I just want to know where you stand on Marmite.

 

[KateESal]

I've now been 'adopted' by a small press. They love my work and they've added it to their online catalogue, exactly as I published it.

Oooh, congratulations — tell us more!

How did it come about and how does it work? Do you keep the rights, but they get a commission for anything you sell through them? Or is there some other arrangement? Which press are we talking about?
(I know — questions, questions!!)

We're holding an online reading event next week to showcase some of our work.

Please plug it in Litopia, if you haven't already! I'm sure many of us would be interested in attending if we can!

By the way, fellow Litopians — I thoroughly recommend signing up for Roz's newsletter and following her blog (if you're not doing it already). To my shame, I only got that organised quite recently, but I'm very glad I did

 

[Roz Morris]

Roz, I just want to know where you stand on Marmite.

Yum.

 

[Roz Morris]

How did it come about and how does it work? Do you keep the rights, but they get a commission for anything you sell through them? Or is there some other arrangement? Which press are we talking about?

Can't give too many details, but they originally took me on in an executive role because they'd liked my books for years. Also I edited the publisher's memoir. Later I stepped back a bit but they kept my books in their catalogue and they include me in their regular newsletters about their authors. I keep all the rights, and they get a commission on anything sold through their online shop. It's nice.

Please plug it in Litopia, if you haven't already! I'm sure many of us would be interested in attending if we can!

Ooh thank you! Where should I do that?

By the way, fellow Litopians — I thoroughly recommend signing up for Roz's newsletter and following her blog (if you're not doing it already). To my shame, I only got that organised quite recently, but I'm very glad I did

Oooh thank you #2! Actually my newsletter is a different URL Roz Morris

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Peyton from the USA, here. Can I buy marmite here and try it? Does it have competitors? Are there USA equivalents? Unless I settle my mind about marmite, I may never write another word. Cordite? Yes. Anyone eating cordite! Or Aphrodite, but her final e is not silent. OMG!

 

[Roz Morris]

Peyton from the USA, here. Can I buy marmite here and try it? Does it have competitors? Are there USA equivalents? Unless I settle my mind about marmite, I may never write another word. Cordite? Yes. Anyone eating cordite! Or Aphrodite, but her final e is not silent. OMG!

Dynamite?

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Dynamite?

A cache of aphrodite blew us up.

Speaking of dynamite, I am sure you get this every day.

 

[RK Wallis]

My choice is simple - front a large sum of money and spend my time obsessed with marketing, or go with a publisher that gets books in stores and solid search engine rankings online

Fascinating insight! Thanks for sharing

ebook sales are huge.

and then there's the growing Audible market...

 

[BrianY]

Peyton from the USA, here. Can I buy marmite here and try it? Does it have competitors? Are there USA equivalents? Unless I settle my mind about marmite, I may never write another word. Cordite? Yes. Anyone eating cordite! Or Aphrodite, but her final e is not silent. OMG!

Peyton, where are you in the States? Here in Pennsylvania, Marmite is sold in the British section of large supermarkets. Wegman's almost always has it. You may also be near a specialty British food store. If there's nothing British, dark miso paste from any good Japanese store (still not common, but easier to find than British) is pretty close substitute.

 

[KateESal]

Where should I do that?

Unless @AgentPete has a better idea, I guess the simplest way would be to start an announcement thread in Cafe Life with details and link

 

[Roz Morris]

Unless @AgentPete has a better idea, I guess the simplest way would be to start an announcement thread in Cafe Life with details and link

I'll wait for confirmation!

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Peyton, where are you in the States? Here in Pennsylvania, Marmite is sold in the British section of large supermarkets. Wegman's almost always has it. You may also be near a specialty British food store. If there's nothing British, dark miso paste from any good Japanese store (still not common, but easier to find than British) is pretty close substitute.

Oregon, the Portland variety.

I love miso without regard to its race, that is dark or light. Not like that matters here in the Land of the Free.

Seriously, I shop at Trader Joe's and do not see Marmite on the shelves.

Never mind, I googled it and can get it at a nearby World Foods Market. It sounds disgusting, something like wet brewer's yeast with salt added. Tomorrow or Saturday, I will give it a try.

 

[BrianY]

Peyton, if you enjoy miso, you'll find that Marmite isn't that different in taste, texture, or basic chemistry. (although it is on some level) Of course, "wet brewer's yeast with salt added" is exactly what it is.

 

[AgentPete]

I'll wait for confirmation!

Sorry, still tons of boxes to fill, and time is running out!
Cafe Life is def the right place, most visibility. Add a prefix, there are several suitable ones to choose from p.

 

[AgentPete]

Peyton, if you enjoy miso, you'll find that Marmite isn't that different in taste, texture, or basic chemistry. (although it is on some level) Of course, "wet brewer's yeast with salt added" is exactly what it is.

Marmite = poor man’s miso.
Vegemite = Australian marmite, no B12.
Tamari = without wheat, shoyu = with wheat. Soya sauce = poor man’s shoyu.