Question: Revising / Rewriting / Editing Strategies

[RK Wallis]

I just realised the chapter I just wrote actually makes a chapter I cut made sense..

It's all about being brave enough, as @Robinne Weiss says to be prepared to throw away stuff (and being able to retrieve it, like Pam has just found). My last fantasy, I threw away 60,000 words five times, rewriting each time (and that is particularly hard for me. Throwing away the writing isn't daunting, it's having to rewrite and edit with only 3 left fingers, but I refuse to let that stop me).

I find Scrivener invaluable in so many ways. Anything I send to trash is always there (and that really helps with the confidence). I have my work separated in chapters or scenes, which I move around all the time to work out how my 2 POVs flow best, and the split screen means I can look at how one scene reads next to one another (which also helps me when developing characters to make sure their arcs flow). And I recently worked out how Scrivener integrates with Prowritingaid, so now I can edit for pacing.

 

[Pamela Jo]

It's all about being brave enough, as @Robinne Weiss says to be prepared to throw away stuff (and being able to retrieve it, like Pam has just found). My last fantasy, I threw away 60,000 words five times, rewriting each time (and that is particularly hard for me. Throwing away the writing isn't daunting, it's having to rewrite and edit with only 3 left fingers, but I refuse to let that stop me).

I find Scrivener invaluable in so many ways. Anything I send to trash is always there (and that really helps with the confidence). I have my work separated in chapters or scenes, which I move around all the time to work out how my 2 POVs flow best, and the split screen means I can look at how one scene reads next to one another (which also helps me when developing characters to make sure their arcs flow). And I recently worked out how Scrivener integrates with Prowritingaid, so now I can edit for pacing.

Yes, but they are magical 3 fingers. I admire your ability to persevere and not give up. I saw it in my father in his last years at the nursing home. He refused to let go of who he was and become the old man in a wheelchair that everyone told him he was. He stayed himself to the end. I have the novel I started 8 years ago on Scrivenor. As soon as I get One Magic Summer to a stage I can leave it I'm going to print out the chapters and make a plot grid. I like your split screen idea. Very clever. I have this weird thing since childhood. I could never read the same book twice. It almost made me physically sick. So frustrating, especially with the Silver Brumby books which I would have read again and again if I could. But it forced me to become a voracious, omnivorous reader. Textbooks weren't quite the same, but enough to cause me study problems. I suppose it's related to what I now know is ADD. Anyway it still causes me problems in rewriting sometimes-my brain just does not want to read it again. I REALLY have to have some distance to get to my reader brain-and then my editor brain has to stand watch over it to make sure its not speed-reading and skipping stuff.

 

[Mel L]

Well done for getting the first draft completed, and at 145K that represents quite an achievement.

Most advice I have read on this subject suggests the first step is that you tie a ribbon around it and put it in a drawer for a few weeks. If you've printed it out already, that can be a real ribbon. If it's still in a Word file or whatever, make it an imaginary ribbon.

Then after the fortnight / month has passed, start in with a clearer head and fresher eyes. In the meantime keep writing daily. Maybe some poems or short stories. Just keep the writing muscles ticking over.

And when it's time, I brew a small ocean of coffee or tea and begin a read through correcting and tweaking as I go. But of course if you're already aware of restructure points in the arc, or where you know it's just not working for whatever reason, then you can work on those areas. Often, for me, the readthrough highlights some of these issues and others I previously had not spotted.

Then it's just a matter of repeating this process as necessary until you are happy with the end result.

I'm sure there will be plenty of others along to give their particular advice, and as with all things writing - there sure as hell ain't just one way to approach this bit of the process.

Thank you, Jonny, for reminding us of the importance of continued writing daily. I tend to fixate on the massive job of editing in front of me and deny myself the pleasure of just writing something, anything new, which is counter-productive as I then stall on the edit. Sometimes it feels like this whole writing thing is just one big job of juggling our inner procrastinator!

 

[RK Wallis]

I like your split screen idea. Very clever

Not mine, just part of the scrivener program.

If you look at this picture, on the right corner of the block text, there are 2 arrows and two other buttons. One of those buttons is a vertical split screen, one is a horizontal split screen. I’m always working in the horizontal split screen. I had some scary moments where I thought I’d pressed the wrong button and done something wrong (I have a shaky hand, very easy to do, if you can press the wrong button, I’ve done it), but you just need to watch carefully, there are clues. My scrivener hasn’t lost a thing, despite my clumsiness.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

It's a big thing you've achieved Stacey. Congratulations. I agree with everyone, now you need to let it lie a little while. Your back brain will be working on it meantime.

Others may disagree, but it is my suggestion that your number one priority when you settle down to revisions, is the length of your manuscript. Regardless of the genre or the age of the readership, 145 k is crazy long in the current publishing climate. This alone will almost certainly be THE obstacle to its future chances of publication. It's either 2 books, in which case, which one do you want to lead with? And it needs to work as a standalone. Or a load of sub plot writing needs to go. It could be filed and used again in another story or a sequel.

For adults fictions, publishers expect 60-100 K with 80 k as typical or average
YA fiction, 60 k - 80 k

Publishers now don't undertake to do so much editing as they used to. You may need to be ruthless.

But you did the hardest part! Spinning the silk out. You wrote a book, and nothing changes that, regardless of the outcome. Well done you!

 

[RK Wallis]

Others may disagree

Totally agree Especially as a debut author, the publishing bus won't want to take a chance on anything above accepted word count for an author without an established audience.

 

[izi 出久]

145 k is crazy long in the current publishing climate. This alone will almost certainly be THE obstacle to its future chances of publication. It's either 2 books, in which case, which one do you want to lead with? And it needs to work as a standalone. Or a load of sub plot writing needs to go. It could be filed and used again in another story or a sequel

I agree. I've been seriously considering serializing it on Patreon before I publish. That way I could build a reader base and make some money to contribute to editing fees for self-publishing. I'm fairly certain I'm going to stick to self-publishing for now. I enjoy marketing, so that won't be an issue.

I still plan to go through many edits myself. Personally, I wouldn't want something to print until a professional editor also went through it. I don't trust myself.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Congratulations! I'm struggling with revision, so I'll not give any advice. Enjoy the beach!

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I second all the above comments about Scrivener being great for facilitating editing. I love the flexibility and ease with which you can shift scenes around, save bits you throw away, compile your style sheet so it's a click away... I don't know how I'd manage without it, really.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I agree about Scrivener. Been using it for over a decade and it's a huge help with any writing more than a few pages long.

 

[Mel L]

I agree about Scrivener. Been using it for over a decade and it's a huge help with any writing more than a few pages long.

I have Scrivener but have become so frustrated with its complexity that I'm now back to editing my MS in Word. I agree it's extremely useful in the early stages, especially for gathering ideas and research in one place, but find it cramps my ability to both step back in editing and experience the work in an immersive way. I keep telling myself that it's because I don't use it properly and that I really must take the time to learn Scrivener's features. My sense, however, is that it's better suited to writers who are outliners and planners that those like me who bounce around between 'plotting and pantsing'. Any thoughts or tips?

 

[Hannah F]

I don't use Scrivener either even though I'm a plotter. I'm used to working in word and I like it. I start with separate chapters which have titles so I easily remember what's in which one. I print each chapter out as I go. For character profiles etc., I write in notebooks. My first ideas for story, plot, whole structure also get handwritten into notebooks. When I've done an edit and I'm happy with the order, I turn it into one document which I can move about in using the navigation tool. I find it such an easy way to work, I'm not going to bother to buy another package to do essentially the same thing. I don't need anything more complicated.

I think each individual finds their own way and the one that suits them they stick to. Each to their own.

 

[RK Wallis]

I keep telling myself that it's because I don't use it properly

You know you can get that immersive experience in Scrivener too? Every scene is split up, as you know, under the heading "manuscript," which is probably what you don't like. But if you want one long document, you only need to click on "manuscript" and every scene will run on in one document (with scenes only separated by a dotted line).

My sense, however, is that it's better suited to writers who are outliners and planners that those like me who bounce around between 'plotting and pantsing'

I'm a plotter/pantser. I jump around in Scrivener, putting out one fire and moving on to a completely different one (when I'm not doing a continuous read through). My background is Word, having been put through advanced courses for work (legal documents use many more features than a book). So I knew Word the shortcuts and tricks (there's probably more now). But I try to apply that background to Scrivener. In other words, I'm probably not using it to the extent I could either. I rely heavily on the "find" function (top right), something I could do in Word.

But as Hannah says, find the way that you're most comfortable with and stick to that. If Scrivener's learning curve is too steep (and it's hellish steep), don't use it, and just use what works best for you

 

[Mel L]

I don't use Scrivener either even though I'm a plotter. I'm used to working in word and I like it. I start with separate chapters which have titles so I easily remember what's in which one. I print each chapter out as I go. For character profiles etc., I write in notebooks. My first ideas for story, plot, whole structure also get handwritten into notebooks. When I've done an edit and I'm happy with the order, I turn it into one document which I can move about in using the navigation tool. I find it such an easy way to work, I'm not going to bother to buy another package to do essentially the same thing. I don't need anything more complicated.

I think each individual finds their own way and the one that suits them they stick to. Each to their own.

Finding your own way is so true, both with the technology and the mechanics of writing itself. I find so much great advice in this group but not all of it works for everybody. It's trial and error for sure. Thanks for sharing your approach!

 

[Mel L]

You know you can get that immersive experience in Scrivener too? Every scene is split up, as you know, under the heading "manuscript," which is probably what you don't like. But if you want one long document, you only need to click on "manuscript" and every scene will run on in one document (with scenes only separated by a dotted line).



I'm a plotter/pantser. I jump around in Scrivener, putting out one fire and moving on to a completely different one (when I'm not doing a continuous read through). My background is Word, having been put through advanced courses for work (legal documents use many more features than a book). So I knew Word the shortcuts and tricks (there's probably more now). But I try to apply that background to Scrivener. In other words, I'm probably not using it to the extent I could either. I rely heavily on the "find" function (top right), something I could do in Word.

But as Hannah says, find the way that you're most comfortable with and stick to that. If Scrivener's learning curve is too steep (and it's hellish steep), don't use it, and just use what works best for you

Thanks for the tips, Rachel. Good to know I'm not the only hybrid when it comes to plotting and pantsing!
You are right about the learning curve on Scrivener. I've decided to continue as I am for now but before starting a new project, I will definitely invest some time into learning it better and trying again. I especially love the fact that you can't 'lose' anything, although now with everything on the cloud it seems to be less of an issue.

 

[izi 出久]

Everyone talks about Scrivener, but I've never used it. I checked it out yesterday and it looks like something I would like. I'll try it out. Hard is it to migrate a .docx into Scrivener?

 

[izi 出久]

Everyone talks about Scrivener, but I've never used it. I checked it out yesterday and it looks like something I would like. I'll try it out. Hard is it to migrate a .docx into Scrivener?

*How hard

Not related to Yoda.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

The only difficulty in migrating a docx to Scrivener is that you miss out on the most useful features if you just plonk it in. To get the most out of it, you need to separate each scene into a new document in Scrivener. I found that my first Scrivener project was frustrating because I just plonked a half-written word doc into it whole. Better to start fresh with a new project when starting with Scrivener, IMO.

 

[RK Wallis]

I was so keen to try it (I got it free for completing Nanowrimo, which I'm sure they still do), I didn't even take the time to see how to plonk a document into Scrivener. I started copying and pasting. So it sounds like the alternative @Robinne Weiss is suggesting, but I found that way frustrating too, lol. Sounds like whichever way you go, setting up an already completed project is frustrating, but I found it SO useful after I was done, even with my clumsiness.

This could help:



I notice when watching YouTube vids that the Mac version has more features than the Windows version, but having said that (owning the Windows version), I love it all the same

 

[RK Wallis]

These aren't bads vid of basics (esp for Mac - the outliner features aren't as flexible in Windows but I don't use it):





After I felt more comfortable with it, I found I always use the Project Notes. Seriously, I learned so much by watching these, I can't wait to start my next book

PS Scrivener is also great for me because I have to use the computer as I haven't the strength to hold a pen and write more than my shaky signature.

 

[Pamela Jo]

On Scrivenor I could never get it to do things that the videos said it did. I found out it doesn't work right unless you use Chrome if you use a Mac. I'm finding that in more things including paying my Clear Mobile bill.

 

[JanePettegree]

Great idea! I've had a few ideas for short stories spinning in my head. Most recently, a magic realism one about a serial killer who sacrifices victims to a unicorn (which is a ghastly creature) she has found. Possibly the last one in existence. My daughter heard me telling a friend about the idea and got super excited, saying she would draw the pictures and then the book would say By Stacey Illustrated by Sierra. I cracked up.

Although she did do a marvelous drawing of the T-rex eating the guy off the toilet in Jurassic Park. Maybe she could illustrate for me. Imagine a horror story illustrated by a 6 year old.

I'm reminded of a truly hilarious cartoon of a teacher looking at a small child's drawing of mummy - all stick-fingers, curious proportions, and an immense grinning mouth with sharp teeth ("how lovely! let's put it on the wall display!"); and then - at the school gates - the real mother at pick-up time, all stick-fingers, curious proportions, an immense grinning mouth with sharp teeth .... horrific. Definitely onto something... On revision, isn't it horrible? But possibly re-read the chapter you want to revise before you start to hack at it, because you need to keep the big picture in sight?

 

[Brayati]

I was so keen to try it (I got it free for completing Nanowrimo, which I'm sure they still do), I didn't even take the time to see how to plonk a document into Scrivener. I started copying and pasting. So it sounds like the alternative @Robinne Weiss is suggesting, but I found that way frustrating too, lol. Sounds like whichever way you go, setting up an already completed project is frustrating, but I found it SO useful after I was done, even with my clumsiness.

This could help:



I notice when watching YouTube vids that the Mac version has more features than the Windows version, but having said that (owning the Windows version), I love it all the same

free for completing Nanowrimo,

It's discounted for winners of NaNoWriMo, not free, but it's a lifetime licence regardless of how many times you load it onto different computers.

 

[izi 出久]

I'm reminded of a truly hilarious cartoon of a teacher looking at a small child's drawing of mummy - all stick-fingers, curious proportions, and an immense grinning mouth with sharp teeth ("how lovely! let's put it on the wall display!"); and then - at the school gates - the real mother at pick-up time, all stick-fingers, curious proportions, an immense grinning mouth with sharp teeth .... horrific. Definitely onto something... On revision, isn't it horrible? But possibly re-read the chapter you want to revise before you start to hack at it, because you need to keep the big picture in sight?

Oh my god, I have 61 chapters to revise. I'm going to push 8 to the second book, so that makes 53. I'm just working on the second book for now because the first is so overwhelming.

 

[RK Wallis]

It's discounted for winners of NaNoWriMo, not free, but it's a lifetime licence regardless of how many times you load it onto different computers.

yeah, got mine a few years ago and sometimes my memory is like swiss cheese, especially for inconsequential details - now you say that I'm remembering 50% off, but that could still be wrong, lol.

 

[Hannah F]

Oh my god, I have 61 chapters to revise. I'm going to push 8 to the second book, so that makes 53. I'm just working on the second book for now because the first is so overwhelming.

In my mind, it's a good idea to push on. I did and found I needed to make little continuity edits in book one so the plot in book 2 didn't fall into a loophole.

 

[izi 出久]

outliner features aren't as flexible in Windows but I don't use it

I've been using Scrivener for the second book and I am obsessed with the outliner. Unhealthily so, probably. But, like, damn. It's going to save me when it comes to continuity. Adding in columns to designate POV, location, time, etc, is a game-changer. Thank you for the recommendation.

 

[Serra K]

I just use Milanote for all my outlining and development. It's super simple and I don't get bogged down by too many functions and details.

 

[JanePettegree]

Oh my god, I have 61 chapters to revise. I'm going to push 8 to the second book, so that makes 53. I'm just working on the second book for now because the first is so overwhelming.

There isn't a hug emoji in this set or I would send you one. Advice without knowing the context just risks causing major anxiety - I'm sorry! You are a clever person and will have your own way of managing to-do lists but one thing that PhD students get told (and they may also have a big to-do list) is to have some kind of tracking system - e.g. a spreadsheet listing the chapters to be done and a header list of read / not read. You only need to focus on one step at a time - and either tick as done or cut-and-paste as done from 'to do' to 'done' worksheet. I contain panic attacks with lists. You might be more creative! And I'm currently so panicked about revising my wee tiny book that I'm going sea swimming rather than face it, so I'm not a great example for my own method in that particular case.... But i think the general advice would be - method, and break the task into manageable chunks.

 

[RK Wallis]

There isn't a hug emoji in this set or I would send you one. Advice without knowing the context just risks causing major anxiety - I'm sorry! You are a clever person and will have your own way of managing to-do lists but one thing that PhD students get told (and they may also have a big to-do list) is to have some kind of tracking system - e.g. a spreadsheet listing the chapters to be done and a header list of read / not read. You only need to focus on one step at a time - and either tick as done or cut-and-paste as done from 'to do' to 'done' worksheet. I contain panic attacks with lists. You might be more creative! And I'm currently so panicked about revising my wee tiny book that I'm going sea swimming rather than face it, so I'm not a great example for my own method in that particular case.... But i think the general advice would be - method, and break the task into manageable chunks.

Yes, definitely this. I love my Story Grid (near the start of this thread)