putting chapters in the right place

[Quillwitch]

How do you know where a scene or chapter should go in your novel. Is it organic, random, do you plot inch by inch. How?? I think I might have my entire story already written but I have no idea how to put it all together. When you plot you have these general plot points you can follow but what about everything else in between?
How do you do it?

 

[James Marinero]

My own take (and I'm strictly an amateur) is that it depends on the individual writer. I have an idea of the plot and then let the story flow. The initial chapter heads are to help me to keep track. Then during editing I move the chapters about to suit, merge and split to make the story more readable and help build suspense. If you have a professional editor then they would surely advise on that. Many writers here use Scrivener or similar software to do the tracking and help with the organising. My 2c.

 

[Matnov]

Being a 'discovery' writer (my new posher term for 'pantser') I found that I did have a problem when it came to putting the entire story together because the chapters were in a strict numerical order that no longer worked once I discovered how the book was going to end. What I do now for the first draft is list the chapters as 10,20,30 etc. Then, when I have at least a semblence of what is happening, I can easily slip extra chapters in or alter the numbers accordingly and have space to spare. I will also try, if I can, to give each draft chapter a few words of basic description so that I can, at a glance, keep track of it all.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Needs to be organised into a logical, emotionally satisfying arc. Play around first with some annotated index cards? Scrap the dead weight.

8 Point Story Arc

 

[David Newrick]

I am struggling with this very point at the moment with my MS Quillwitch. It is actually taking up a huge amount of thought.

As it is a crime novel MS then there is a certain flow involving clues, red herrings, finding bodies and acquiring evidence. As I was re-drafting I felt unhappy with the flow, especially when a young member of a victim's family is interviewed by my main character. It didn't seem to fit right, but on the other hand couldn't just simply be moved. That suggests some new material needs to be written and some older material removed. Many of those changes will affect the entire MS. Quite a headache!

 

[Quillwitch]

My own take (and I'm strictly an amateur) is that it depends on the individual writer. I have an idea of the plot and then let the story flow. The initial chapter heads are to help me to keep track. Then during editing I move the chapters about to suit, merge and split to make the story more readable and help build suspense. If you have a professional editor then they would surely advise on that. Many writers here use Scrivener or similar software to do the tracking and help with the organising. My 2c.

Oh man, I hate it when I have to rely on my own intuition!

 

[Quillwitch]

Being a 'discovery' writer (my new posher term for 'pantser') I found that I did have a problem when it came to putting the entire story together because the chapters were in a strict numerical order that no longer worked once I discovered how the book was going to end. What I do now for the first draft is list the chapters as 10,20,30 etc. Then, when I have at least a semblence of what is happening, I can easily slip extra chapters in or alter the numbers accordingly and have space to spare. I will also try, if I can, to give each draft chapter a few words of basic description so that I can, at a glance, keep track of it all.

Let me know how you do with that. I´m having trouble figuring out where things are to begin with. It´s all a jumble.

 

[Quillwitch]

I am struggling with this very point at the moment with my MS Quillwitch. It is actually taking up a huge amount of thought.

As it is a crime novel MS then there is a certain flow involving clues, red herrings, finding bodies and acquiring evidence. As I was re-drafting I felt unhappy with the flow, especially when a young member of a victim's family is interviewed by my main character. It didn't seem to fit right, but on the other hand couldn't just simply be moved. That suggests some new material needs to be written and some older material removed. Many of those changes will affect the entire MS. Quite a headache!

Quite a headache indeed!

 

[James Marinero]

Quite a headache indeed!

I find that initially using many chapter headings (h1) - almost by para - helps me keep track, and I include timeline subheaders as well (h2). Then, when I look at the toc (I use Word with navigation showing in the left panel) it's easy to pick up a para or chapter and move it within the TOC (which also moves the content). Then save the new version separately etc. I do that on a daily basis as the plot thickens. It's essential for me because tech detail and interwoven (and interdependent) plot details are complex in my books.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

I'm currently reading May We Be Forgiven, by A. M. Homes. She doesn't use chapters at all, relying on section breaks all of the way through the 480-page novel. The sections vary in length from one line to five pages.

So far as I can see, there's no good reason for using this method, for even when her protagonist indulges in a stream of consciousness episode of internal dialogue it's not always discrete from what other characters say and do.

As a reader, it's weirdly disorientating not to have chapters. I can't decide that I'll read until the end of Chapter 11 before putting the book down but have to read until an incident or particular day is over.

As a writer, I'm a big fan of section breaks, as it allows me to describe separate events within a chapter that may, or may not, be linked. I've only even used a maximum of three section breaks in any one chapter.

When publishing an ebook, sites such as Smashwords love you to have a well-organised Table of Contents, to enable Kindle readers to readily return to where they left the action. I wonder what they'd make of a novel that was all section breaks....

 

[Carol Rose]

Chapter breaks for me are when the scene ends, or when there's a place in it I can end the chapter to create suspense, or to emphasize a pivotal or emotional moment. I also use the break to change POV, although changing it within the chapter is acceptable as well. My chapters run anywhere from 6 to 14 pages, which is approximately 1800 to 4200 words. Ultimately, it's going to depend on house style and/or genre expectations, so don't sweat it too much. Just end them where it feels right to you, and don't worry so much about the length, unless the genre has an average length. Then shoot for that, give or take a few pages.

 

[Howard]

A prickly dilemma indeed. Do you use anything like Scrivener when you are writing? One of its more useful features is that it lets you plan things like this, either by just writing out your chapters and then shuffling them into order after the fact, or by creating a pin board of index cards that let you see each chapter at a glance through its synopsis and thereby get a feel for the flow of your story.
Of course, such things can be done on paper or with actual index cards, too!
Standing back from your work and seeing how a reader would perceive its flow is a very tricky thing, but noting what each chapter reveals of the story can let you see in which order they are best presented.

 

[Quillwitch]

A prickly dilemma indeed. Do you use anything like Scrivener when you are writing? One of its more useful features is that it lets you plan things like this, either by just writing out your chapters and then shuffling them into order after the fact, or by creating a pin board of index cards that let you see each chapter at a glance through its synopsis and thereby get a feel for the flow of your story.
Of course, such things can be done on paper or with actual index cards, too!
Standing back from your work and seeing how a reader would perceive its flow is a very tricky thing, but noting what each chapter reveals of the story can let you see in which order they are best presented.

No, I don´t have Scrivener. I think It might take me longer to understand how to use it that it ill take me to actually use it. But I do have index cards. And they are really a great tool.BUT, how to know WHERE each one should go--THAT is the Question! Other than the major 7 plot points--how to know what to use in the middle.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Well I must be the odd one out, because the story follows its own path so there is never a need to move chapters around. I mean, the story unfolds and follows its timeline, I certainly don't jump backwards and forwards. As a side note H1 heading is for the title, and H2 is for chapter headings, at least in two publisher programs I have used. So for me, there is no problem. Plenty of others though.

 

[James Marinero]

BTW, the chapter heads I use for convenience are not the final ones (which I edit down). For late night readers chapter breaks are a boon.