Publishing industry is overwhelmingly white and female, US study finds

[Paul Whybrow]

This report on the demographics of the publishing industry comes as no surprise to me. The percentages apply to the U.S.A., but after seven months spent submitting to mainly British literary agents and publishers in 2015 I reckon the figures would be higher in the U.K.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...publishing-is-overwhelmingly-white-and-female

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (who, me?), I got a bit tired of looking at page after page of bright young things in their 20s and 30s, declaring their love of books and posting photos of the latest book launch they'd attended.

I found myself cheering when I saw a middle-aged man on the staff profiles of agencies. I'm generalising, but most males on literary agency sites are either the boss (hello, Agent Pete) or a gay guy who handles mainly gay fiction. As for racial diversity or employing agents with a disability, I recall seeing two black people, half-a-dozen Asian and no one who identified as having a mental or physical disability.

I had the thought, (which amused me slightly), that should I ever get anywhere with my queries and be invited for a chat, I'd resemble an ornery mountain lion padding into a coop full of ornamental chickens!

I have no doubt that many of these young, white female literary agents and publishing executives are skilled at their jobs, so I'm not being ageist, racist or sexist. It's just that with such a skewed percentage of agents being like this, it must affect what manuscripts get passed as being worthy of publication.

Man-Booker prize winner Marlon James' comment on how 'Writers of colour pander to the white woman' rings true.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...man-booker-event-brief-history-seven-killings

 

[Chase Gamwell]

You might be interested in the attached article. I first heard the story when listening to NPR, but it's interesting nonetheless.

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/when-white-poets-pretend-to-be-asian

The basic idea is that a white poet couldn't get his poem published, so he used a Chinese pseudonym to get it accepted into an anthology. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth ensued when it was discovered that the man was, in fact, white. The whole thing was somewhat of a fiasco last year, but it was interesting listening to, then reading through, a lot of what came out of the whole ordeal.

 

[Emurelda]

Ok. I think much of what you said rings true that the demographics is barely representative of the general public, however, I would look at publishers themselves since agents hold the network contacts with publishers and ask myself why are publishers not 'mingling' with all types.

Personally, and I am going to be honest about myself (speaking as a minority), but in my field I would prefer to hide behind the telephone, the website and the written word then blunder my way into the social arena of networking. And it is about networking, whether thats meetings, posing with clients, dinners etc. that doesn't mean i don't do it but the reaction is almost always negative compared to a 'white female' who does the same. This is the world as it is. I am not interested in fighting it I am interested in learning how to use it to have the same opportunities as everyone else.

Let me share a few examples...

During a high profile evening do, I was invited by my sponsor, Rolls-Royce, to attend a gala dinner for their Science Prize. There were a few celebrities and many posh tosh. I related well with the younger groups as the older gneeration had their glamourous PAs and made it clear I was beneath them to engage with. The male 'celebrity' accidently crossed my path and I was so excited but very soon put off as he started literally talking about bollocks! I am used to a few white males making toilet talk to put me off and make me move on. It's something I've gotten quite angry about in the past. So clearly I'm not worth their while to engage in convo with despite my vain attempts.

These are just a few anecdotal experiences in the not so distant past. They don't include the bad experiences when my clients meet me for the first time. Always a negative reaction. Until they learn that actually I am not so bad after all. One of my now biggest supporters had such a bad initial response to the extent they couldn't believe they drove 5 hours to meet me by rolling their eyes and frowning at the very first sight of me before behaving themselves.

Why am i saying this well..it all comes to the fact that many publishers will prefer to do business with their own 'kind'. And my experience might be anecdotal but i do believe fractals of the smaller picture reflect the greater perspective in many industries if not all. So publishers will prefer to network with white females, maybe, which hinders the 'other sort' lol

I've seen it to some extent here where friendships are made of a certain group at the exclusion of others for whatever reason but the demographics always fall tightly within maybe age, race, gender etc. people don't realise to what extent their subconscious prejudice lie. Including my own i'm sure. It's worth knowing it exists to be able to at least consider dealing with it consciously.

I am very lucky to be able to use my voice (and written proposals) alone to make my projects work. It is a strength i am very aware of which is why it is easier for me to procure funds for projects that doesn't require a meeting for. It's amazing how sponsors are happy to support my work on my voice alone. I guess i sound like a young white female on the phone.

 

[Jason Byrne]

This report on the demographics of the publishing industry comes as no surprise to me. The percentages apply to the U.S.A., but after seven months spent submitting to mainly British literary agents and publishers in 2015 I reckon the figures would be higher in the U.K.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...publishing-is-overwhelmingly-white-and-female

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (who, me?), I got a bit tired of looking at page after page of bright young things in their 20s and 30s, declaring their love of books and posting photos of the latest book launch they'd attended.

I found myself cheering when I saw a middle-aged man on the staff profiles of agencies. I'm generalising, but most males on literary agency sites are either the boss (hello, Agent Pete) or a gay guy who handles mainly gay fiction. As for racial diversity or employing agents with a disability, I recall seeing two black people, half-a-dozen Asian and no one who identified as having a mental or physical disability.

I had the thought, (which amused me slightly), that should I ever get anywhere with my queries and be invited for a chat, I'd resemble an ornery mountain lion padding into a coop full of ornamental chickens!

I have no doubt that many of these young, white female literary agents and publishing executives are skilled at their jobs, so I'm not being ageist, racist or sexist. It's just that with such a skewed percentage of agents being like this, it must affect what manuscripts get passed as being worthy of publication.

Man-Booker prize winner Marlon James' comment on how 'Writers of colour pander to the white woman' rings true.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...man-booker-event-brief-history-seven-killings

Well, agenting is for the most part a position of advocacy, of nurturing. Publication is largely a position delegation, of power.

Women either by socialization or by design tend to gravitate to roles of nurturing, be it literary agent, nurse, or social worker. All predominantly female-driven jobs (gathering). Men either by socialization or design tend to gravitate to decisive jobs like publishing, military, and management (hunting).

Let me say explicitly that I believe any human should be allowed to do whatever the hell they damn-well please, so long as it doesn't impinge on the freedom of the human next to them to do the same — work any job, marry whomever they want, kill people in service of their military, go into a burning building as a firefighter.

As to pandering, I would say "pander to the group to which you wish to sell, and don't complain that you wish to sell to them. And if all you want is to be successful, don't bemoan doing whatever it takes to be successful."

 

[Jason Byrne]

Ok. I think much of what you said rings true that the demographics is barely representative of the general public, however, I would look at publishers themselves since agents hold the network contacts with publishers and ask myself why are publishers not 'mingling' with all types.

Personally, and I am going to be honest about myself (speaking as a minority), but in my field I would prefer to hide behind the telephone, the website and the written word then blunder my way into the social arena of networking. And it is about networking, whether thats meetings, posing with clients, dinners etc. that doesn't mean i don't do it but the reaction is almost always negative compared to a 'white female' who does the same. This is the world as it is. I am not interested in fighting it I am interested in learning how to use it to have the same opportunities as everyone else.

Let me share a few examples...

During a high profile evening do, I was invited by my sponsor, Rolls-Royce, to attend a gala dinner for their Science Prize. There were a few celebrities and many posh tosh. I related well with the younger groups as the older gneeration had their glamourous PAs and made it clear I was beneath them to engage with. The male 'celebrity' accidently crossed my path and I was so excited but very soon put off as he started literally talking about bollocks! I am used to a few white males making toilet talk to put me off and make me move on. It's something I've gotten quite angry about in the past. So clearly I'm not worth their while to engage in convo with despite my vain attempts.

These are just a few anecdotal experiences in the not so distant past. They don't include the bad experiences when my clients meet me for the first time. Always a negative reaction. Until they learn that actually I am not so bad after all. One of my now biggest supporters had such a bad initial response to the extent they couldn't believe they drove 5 hours to meet me by rolling their eyes and frowning at the very first sight of me before behaving themselves.

Why am i saying this well..it all comes to the fact that many publishers will prefer to do business with their own 'kind'. And my experience might be anecdotal but i do believe fractals of the smaller picture reflect the greater perspective in many industries if not all. So publishers will prefer to network with white females, maybe, which hinders the 'other sort' lol

I've seen it to some extent here where friendships are made of a certain group at the exclusion of others for whatever reason but the demographics always fall tightly within maybe age, race, gender etc. people don't realise to what extent their subconscious prejudice lie. Including my own i'm sure. It's worth knowing it exists to be able to at least consider dealing with it consciously.

I am very lucky to be able to use my voice (and written proposals) alone to make my projects work. It is a strength i am very aware of which is why it is easier for me to procure funds for projects that doesn't require a meeting for. It's amazing how sponsors are happy to support my work on my voice alone. I guess i sound like a young white female on the phone.

It's an old boys' club! Now, word is that's changing (a little. Sort of). And it surprises me that you're uncomfortable with networking, meetings, and dinners, because you are by far the most skilled here at that. But I see now why, and will gladly join you in calling bullsh*t on all of that prejudice.

 

[Emurelda]

It's an old boys' club! Now, word is that's changing (a little. Sort of). And it surprises me that you're uncomfortable with networking, meetings, and dinners, because you are by far the most skilled here at that. But I see now why, and will gladly join you in calling bullsh*t on all of that prejudice.

I am very sensitive to negative attention. Have lived with it all my life from little boys saying 'that's the ugliest thing i've ever seen' as i walk past them to my bag slit by a pen knife from a couple of racist twins to an angry driver calling me a pig thinking it might insult me...yeah i kinda have to balance all that bs with other positive energy in my life. Not interested in wasting time fighting prejudice.

Ironically i end up marrying a 'white guy' lol Can't beat 'em convert 'em

 

[Alistair Roberts]

I would (unfortunately?) agree with you Paul, I see the same thing and I wonder how anyone so young as many of them are, have any real experience? Probably some of them don't. As for you Emurelda, that really does sux badly, but I guess we get back to the fact Britain is old and in some parts stuffy and set in it's narrow minded ways. You wouldn't have that attitude in Australia, at least not to such an obvious extent. You must have considerable strength of character, to not only put up with it, but to keep on, keeping on! I think your project deserves to be taken seriously, and eventually you will be able to look back, then ignore those stuffy toffee nosed sods

 

[Jason Byrne]

I am very sensitive to negative attention. Have lived with it all my life from little boys saying 'that's the ugliest thing i've ever seen' as i walk past them to my bag slit by a pen knife from a couple of racist twins to an angry driver calling me a pig thinking it might insult me...yeah i kinda have to balance all that bs with other positive energy in my life. Not interested in wasting time fighting prejudice.

Ironically i end up marrying a 'white guy' lol Can't beat 'em convert 'em

I would (unfortunately?) agree with you Paul, I see the same thing and I wonder how anyone so young as many of them are, have any real experience? Probably some of them don't. As for you Emurelda, that really does sux badly, but I guess we get back to the fact Britain is old and in some parts stuffy and set in it's narrow minded ways. You wouldn't have that attitude in Australia, at least not to such an obvious extent. You must have considerable strength of character, to not only put up with it, but to keep on, keeping on! I think your project deserves to be taken seriously, and eventually you will be able to look back, then ignore those stuffy toffee nosed sods

It's bad in the US as well — especially right now. Hell, my best friend's name in the city where I live is Aurangzeb Raja. But I've noticed prejudice getting worse since this time last year.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

I can imagine Jason you are right. It infuriates me no end, I must have been raised in the only country were there was almost no prejudice, New Zealand. I mean, you wouldn't insult a Maori or he'd probably rip your head off! The English had huge respect for them. But these days, it probably isn't quite as good, modern communications has some down side. No place is perfect, and too many people wear blinkers and ignore reality..... getting off high horse.... with a thud!

 

[Jason Byrne]

I can imagine Jason you are right. It infuriates me no end, I must have been raised in the only country were there was almost no prejudice, New Zealand. I mean, you wouldn't insult a Maori or he'd probably rip your head off! The English had huge respect for them. But these days, it probably isn't quite as good, modern communications has some down side. No place is perfect, and too many people wear blinkers and ignore reality..... getting off high horse.... with a thud!

New Zealand is pretty much the coolest in any regard, of course...

 

[Amber Zade]

If, while you were writing your post, a small part of you wondered if some women would be offended or .... laugh, you were right. I understand you may not be a misogynist, I don't know you well enough to say. But, let me assure you, in general, men get credit before women. The arc of the pendulum's swing is shorter but it hasn't swung over to the other side.

Oh...and I laughed. Today is a laughing at nonsense day not a getting offended at nonsense day.

 

[Jason Byrne]

If, while you were writing your post, a small part of you wondered if some women would be offended or .... laugh, you were right. I understand you may not be a misogynist, I don't know you well enough to say. But, let me assure you, in general, men get credit before women. The arc of the pendulum's swing is shorter but it hasn't swung over to the other side.

Oh...and I laughed. Today is a laughing at nonsense day not a getting offended at nonsense day.

I don't mean to offend or amuse — simply calling attention to the situation. I'm right there with you, trying to decide whether to be angry about it or laugh at the idiocy.

Like I said, I don't like rules on general principle. I 100% support women being free to do any job there is. I don't like relegating women to administrative military roles; women can fight on the front line as well as men, go into burning buildings as firefighters as well as men. They should be able to choose when it comes to their own body; people should marry whomever they want. People need to get the hell out of other peoples' business.

And... FIGHT!

 

[Carol Rose]

I'm too old to give a shit what people think I can or cannot do based on my gender, or anything else for that matter. Since I'm Caucasian, there are prejudices in the USA I haven't had to deal with, but I am female. I also grew up with a single mother who was divorced, and we were on welfare (public assistance). AND I was in Catholic school. Big time prejudice there. It was the 60s. They're a bit more tolerant now, but just barely. I was singled out for being the child of a divorced mother, like it was the biggest sin in the world.

The thing is, there will always be people who are afraid of others not like them. And yes, I do believe prejudice is based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear from preconceived notions passed on by our parents (where else do we learn these things from childhood, after all???), fear based on irrational anxieties or generalizations. Knowledge is power, and that's not only a trite cliche. It's the truth at the core of all things.

Want to conquer a fear? Learn about it so you understand it. I had a deadly fear of spiders when I was a child. I mean a paralyzing-not-able-to-think-or-breathe kind of fear. I don't want to share my bed with one, but once I read about them and learned all they do, I was able to manage that fear and contain it. Same thing with fire - another paralyzing childhood fear - and tornadoes.

If people got a tall stepladder and got over themselves long enough to learn about other genders, other cultures, other religions, etc., etc., etc., they would realize we are all PEOPLE. There's nothing to fear. There's no reason to hate. What makes us human beings is our uniqueness, and our oneness, all rolled up into these bodies with souls.

 

[Jason Byrne]

YOU GO GIRL!!

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Amen Carol, 100000% agree!

 

[Nicole Wilson]

I'm too old to give a shit what people think I can or cannot do based on my gender, or anything else for that matter. Since I'm Caucasian, there are prejudices in the USA I haven't had to deal with, but I am female. I also grew up with a single mother who was divorced, and we were on welfare (public assistance). AND I was in Catholic school. Big time prejudice there. It was the 60s. They're a bit more tolerant now, but just barely. I was singled out for being the child of a divorced mother, like it was the biggest sin in the world.

The thing is, there will always be people who are afraid of others not like them. And yes, I do believe prejudice is based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear from preconceived notions passed on by our parents (where else do we learn these things from childhood, after all???), fear based on irrational anxieties or generalizations. Knowledge is power, and that's not only a trite cliche. It's the truth at the core of all things.

Want to conquer a fear? Learn about it so you understand it. I had a deadly fear of spiders when I was a child. I mean a paralyzing-not-able-to-think-or-breathe kind of fear. I don't want to share my bed with one, but once I read about them and learned all they do, I was able to manage that fear and contain it. Same thing with fire - another paralyzing childhood fear - and tornadoes.

If people got a tall stepladder and got over themselves long enough to learn about other genders, other cultures, other religions, etc., etc., etc., they would realize we are all PEOPLE. There's nothing to fear. There's no reason to hate. What makes us human beings is our uniqueness, and our oneness, all rolled up into these bodies with souls.

Lots of political issues that I could completely swat down with your exact argument, but I'm going to casually sidestep those and just say YES. There's a lot of fear going around about tons of different issues--in politics and out of it--and there always has been. A lot of that I used to share. Until I met my hubby and he encouraged me to learn about these things. It puts the issue in perspective and makes it much less scary. I'm with ya, Carol

 

[KG Christopher]

I read this related article in the Guardian today. In England at the moment, there is a debate about removing a statue of Cecil Rhodes from a college in Oxford (cant remember which one.) The argument being, 'it was all so long ago, let by gones be by gones, you have to see it in context'. It seems to me that the angst of censorship / self censorship seems to be as relevant today as ever.


http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/29/smiling-slaves-the-real-censorship-in-childrens-books

 

[Bernard Stacey]

I'm too old to give a shit what people think I can or cannot do based on my gender, or anything else for that matter. Since I'm Caucasian, there are prejudices in the USA I haven't had to deal with, but I am female. I also grew up with a single mother who was divorced, and we were on welfare (public assistance). AND I was in Catholic school. Big time prejudice there. It was the 60s. They're a bit more tolerant now, but just barely. I was singled out for being the child of a divorced mother, like it was the biggest sin in the world.

The thing is, there will always be people who are afraid of others not like them. And yes, I do believe prejudice is based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear from preconceived notions passed on by our parents (where else do we learn these things from childhood, after all???), fear based on irrational anxieties or generalizations. Knowledge is power, and that's not only a trite cliche. It's the truth at the core of all things.

Want to conquer a fear? Learn about it so you understand it. I had a deadly fear of spiders when I was a child. I mean a paralyzing-not-able-to-think-or-breathe kind of fear. I don't want to share my bed with one, but once I read about them and learned all they do, I was able to manage that fear and contain it. Same thing with fire - another paralyzing childhood fear - and tornadoes.

If people got a tall stepladder and got over themselves long enough to learn about other genders, other cultures, other religions, etc., etc., etc., they would realize we are all PEOPLE. There's nothing to fear. There's no reason to hate. What makes us human beings is our uniqueness, and our oneness, all rolled up into these bodies with souls.

I don't suppose you could forward this to Donald Trump, could you?

 

[Carol Rose]

I don't suppose you could forward this to Donald Trump, could you?

He's not worth the time it would take me to forward the email.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

He's not worth the time it would take me to forward the email.

Speaking of misogyny...

But, Alistair, there is racism in NZ, and not just among the young, technosavvy. My neighbour--a lovely man in many ways, very neighbourly--is such a raging sexist and racist pig it can take my breath away. He uses the n-word to refer to our Maori neighbours. And if you have the misfortune to have to deal with Maori politics, you'll find they're every bit as bad as the Pakeha (whites)--prejudice against other iwi (tribes) and against non-Maori (no surprise there--whites did, after all, steal their land only 150 years ago). Schools that are primarily Maori are passed over by the Ministry of Education for building maintenance because, "Those kids don't have any better conditions at home anyway." And there's tension between a growing Asian population and Maori and Pakeha...It's all better than the US, for sure, but it's there.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Well when I grew up 50, 60 70's, I didn't see it. I know its developed, maybe New Plymouth missed it, I don't know?

 

[Nicole Wilson]

whites did, after all, steal their land only 150 years ago

Seems like a theme in history....

(Also, one of my top two favorite Disney movies of all time. Annnndddd if you'll excuse me, I have a movie to watch )

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Actually Robinne, the British did not for the most part steal their land. The land was bought, and the Treaty of Waitangi protected their rights, even for tribes that didn't sign the treaty. That protection exists to this day, and if there is a dispute, they have the right to go back to the Privy Council (in London) to assert their rights. The problems arose, when Maori people who had no right to sell land (only the chiefs of the tribes did) started selling land, which then led to wars, like the Taranaki Wars.

 

[Patricia D]

Ok. I think much of what you said rings true that the demographics is barely representative of the general public, however, I would look at publishers themselves since agents hold the network contacts with publishers and ask myself why are publishers not 'mingling' with all types.
onscious prejudice lie. Including my own i'm sure. It's worth knowing it exists to be able to at least consider dealing with it consciously.

...I am very lucky to be able to use my voice (and written proposals) alone to make my projects work. It is a strength i am very aware of which is why it is easier for me to procure funds for projects that doesn't require a meeting for. It's amazing how sponsors are happy to support my work on my voice alone. I guess i sound like a young white female on the phone.

Back when I worked as an economist, more than one person was shocked to meet me and find out that Pat was short for Patricia, not Patrick. I do believe the ambiguity helped me. It also seems that things have improved, although they still have a long long way to go

 

[Patricia D]

I live in the US and have spent time working in other countries. I've yet to find one free of racism or tribalism or classism or any other form of us vs them. It seems to be a sad part of human nature, but one that can be ameliorated by interactions that cross those lines and - as Carol Rose said, education. Literature is part of that education.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

I don't mean to offend or amuse — simply calling attention to the situation. I'm right there with you, trying to decide whether to be angry about it or laugh at the idiocy.

Like I said, I don't like rules on general principle. I 100% support women being free to do any job there is. I don't like relegating women to administrative military roles; women can fight on the front line as well as men, go into burning buildings as firefighters as well as men. They should be able to choose when it comes to their own body; people should marry whomever they want. People need to get the hell out of other peoples' business.

And... FIGHT!

Jason didn't say anything misogynistic. Nor was it nonsense. He used the word 'tend' in making an observation on a prevailing generality regarding professional identities, and by and large, whatever the reasons, and whatever our views about it, it's accurate.

 

[Richard Sutton]

When I began this whole silly process, back in 1992 or so, I was the elected director of a Business Improvement District in a suburban town where we had our retail gallery. I had come from more than twenty years in advertising copy, marketing and design work. I found I had a knack for grant proposals, wrote a few and raised a bit of serious money for local improvements, but... the politics kicked in and the pleasure in doing something useful came to a grinding stop. Big residential money locally spoke much louder than our small group of merchants and they had me flayed and raised on a petard as if all the bad ideas were mine. Ahhh... criticism. So in that frame of mind, I decided publishing fiction would be a better direction. Right.

Paul did bring up an interesting aspect of the current iteration of the business end of publishing. I have no idea if this is reflected over in the UK, but here in NY. if I meet anyone who works in publishing, even as a runner or slush-pile sweeper, they are female. There are still some old boys in the conference rooms and offices on the top floors, but the soldiers seem to be women, by and large. While in the world of agents, here we see a decidedly split situation with many of the very top-ranked big-bucks agents being women, the majority of agency owners are men. That too, is changing.

One of the things I wish would even out a bit, however is readership. Women, for the most part, read more fiction than men do. The societal gender-roles seem to be reflected in who is reading what, so I had to come to terms with listening more to women readers than to other men, if I wanted to sell books. IN keeping, women tended to want to discuss the work, make suggestions while men only wanted to do a yea-or-nay with rarely a comment. So, while I can adapt my work in tiny increments to reflect the actual majority of readers, my subjects are still not equally attractive to most readers, I guess. Oh well... it's a long, long way to Tipperary.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Actually Robinne, the British did not for the most part steal their land. The land was bought, and the Treaty of Waitangi protected their rights, even for tribes that didn't sign the treaty. That protection exists to this day, and if there is a dispute, they have the right to go back to the Privy Council (in London) to assert their rights. The problems arose, when Maori people who had no right to sell land (only the chiefs of the tribes did) started selling land, which then led to wars, like the Taranaki Wars.

Indeed, but the Treaty that the Maori signed was different than the one the British signed (the English and Maori versions were different, and promised different things). The cultural understandings of ownership were very different between Maori and Europeans, so what Maori thought they were selling was very different from what the English thought they were buying. And what is being returned to them in the Treaty settlements is a fraction of what they lost. And throughout much of the country, they are still marginalized by the rich white boys with political power. I can understand their anger. With that said, Ngai Tahu (the tribe that controls most of the South Island), is one of the biggest landholders in the South Island, and runs the tribe like a large multinational corporation--dealing in land development, dairy, and forestry. They've done very well out of their Treaty negotiations.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Indeed, but the Treaty that the Maori signed was different than the one the British signed (the English and Maori versions were different, and promised different things). The cultural understandings of ownership were very different between Maori and Europeans, so what Maori thought they were selling was very different from what the English thought they were buying. And what is being returned to them in the Treaty settlements is a fraction of what they lost. And throughout much of the country, they are still marginalized by the rich white boys with political power. I can understand their anger. With that said, Ngai Tahu (the tribe that controls most of the South Island), is one of the biggest landholders in the South Island, and runs the tribe like a large multinational corporation--dealing in land development, dairy, and forestry. They've done very well out of their Treaty negotiations.

This is all very interesting. Learning something from this conversation of yours with Alistair.

 

[Jason Byrne]

Jason didn't say anything misogynistic. Nor was it nonsense. He used the word 'tend' in making an observation on a prevailing generality regarding professional identities, and by and large, whatever the reasons, and whatever our views about it, it's accurate.

Whew. Thanks Katie! Break that glass ceiling Supergirl! You can fly for the love of Christ!