Keeping Confidence in your Writing

[LCValentine]

For many years I've written on an amateur basis, but this year was my first real attempt to write a novel. And one of the hardest things I've found is keeping faith in my writing being any good as I do it. I guess because anybody can write, it's very hard to keep confident that what you're writing is worthwhile. I'm at the point now of sending off to agents, and getting dozens of rejections (which I'm sure is normal for most writers), but every time I get one, I find it harder and harder to bounce back and convince myself it's worth still pursuing.

I've still got the option for self publishing, but it becomes harder and harder to believe that what you've got is worth reading as you get more and more rejections. So my question is this; how do you deal with those feelings of negativity? Do you get them? Did any of you experience this? Do you ever worry that you're not a 'real' writer and just deluding yourself?

Sorry if this is a bit of a negative thread, but I've heard a lot of writers say and feel similar things, and I was interested to see what people thought and how they dealt with it.

 

[Leonora]

Post your opening chapters in the Writing Groups. Getting agent rejections can be soul-destroying, because they don't tell you what's wrong with your submission. People here will very quickly point out problems. They did for me, and it was a real eye-opener. Join the Huddle with @AgentPete too. The worst and loneliest thing about writing is what you describe, and this is the perfect place to get honest answers.
Good luck!

 

[Barbara]

Don't worry, your post is not negative at all. It's just the reality of writing. Rejection and doubt are part of the game. It's an oversubscribed industry and hard to break through.

… how do you deal with those feelings of negativity? Do you get them? Did any of you experience this?

I used to. I've learnt to ignore it. But these days, assuming I made the MS as good as I can (rewriting based on feedback etc like Leonora suggests above), I do quite happily move on and abandon my MS if I've had over 40 rejections. But that's just me. Rejections doesn't necessarily mean the work is bad. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It might simply be that the market isn't right at this point. Maybe my work was fine but other people's work was simply better. Or maybe the agent/publisher preferred other books. Or maybe the agent/publisher was irritated and in a non-receptive mood because he/she is wearing his T-shirt inside out. You might never know.

'real' writer

I guess it depends on what is a real writer? If I measured this by sales I'd be doing my head in. I am a writer. I write. I'm an unpublished writer. I don't define myself by sales. I define myself by typing 'The End'.

Do you ever worry that you're not a 'real' writer and just deluding yourself?

Not anymore. I try to be objective about the whole affair, and detach myself from wanting my current MS sold. I now don't see my current project as my one and only path to publications. If I feel I've taken it as far as I can and it's as good as I can ever get it and still nobody bites, then I'm happy about being dis-loyal to my current novel and move on to my next one on the basis the current isn't going anywhere. It's ok to not succeed this time. The work isn't lost. It's training, if nothing else. I can always come back to it later and try again. I now see rejection as a learning curve. Just because my current MS isn't snapped up doesn't mean my next one won't be. The more you write, the better you'll get. I've changed my thinking from 'am I good enough' to 'is this sellable'. If something doesn't sell, I'll let it go. Thinking this way, helps me.

I find it harder and harder to bounce back and convince myself it's worth still pursuing

It's always worth it. It's about telling stories. Do you want to tell that story? Does telling it make you feel good? Did you enjoy the journey? Then it's totally worth it.

Just because you didn't write a bestseller today, doesn't mean you won't tomorrow. But you won't write a bestseller tomorrow, if you give up today. So don't give up.

It's like one of those cartoons where the characters run over a cliff and only fall the moment they look down. So don't look down. Keep you eyes ahead and keep running.

 

[LCValentine]

Thanks guys. I think my problem at the moment is that I've spent a year working on this particular novel, and really poured my heart into it. I don't feel confident just dropping it and starting fresh. It's the genre I enjoy writing, and the type of thing I want to turn into a series. I feel like giving up on this one would be giving up on writing.

But at the same time, I know I'm writing in a niche genre (young adult meta horror, basically), and it's a hard sell. I went in fully expecting rejections, but it's the self-doubt that gets me. Trying to convince myself it's any good is harder than anything else.

I'll check out the writing groups. I'm still finding my way around here! Thanks.

 

[Leonora]

Making it better is the only answer to rejections. The hard thing is knowing how, and that's why the writing groups are great.

If you're willing to spend money, I also found going to one to ones with agents at writing festivals really good. They'll tell you in about ten seconds why they'd pass on your submission, and you can also gauge from their reactions whether you're anywhere in the ballpark. You need to see more than one, though, as there's always an outlier.
But overall, having self-doubt is good. It pushes you on to improve!

 

[LCValentine]

Making it better is the only answer to rejections. The hard thing is knowing how, and that's why the writing groups are great.

If you're willing to spend money, I also found going to one to ones with agents at writing festivals really good. They'll tell you in about ten seconds why they'd pass on your submission, and you can also gauge from their reactions whether you're anywhere in the ballpark. You need to see more than one, though, as there's always an outlier.
But overall, having self-doubt is good. It pushes you on to improve!

Thanks. That's good advice, re: writing festivals. I'll certainly have to look into attending some.

 

[Barbara]

It sounds like your novel is still in your veins. In that case, everything @Leonora says. (She's a fountain of wisdom.) Follow your heart and keep going if you feel you can still improve it. As for the self-doubt: I agree, it can make the work better. Just don't let it floor you (been there, done that, I nearly gave up writing because of it).

By the way have you heard of the Chimp Management? It's about the inner Chimp that is trying to derail you. I found it very useful in helping me realise when my inner Chimp is in charge and needs ignoring.

The Chimp Model | Mind Management | Chimp Management

The incredibly powerful Mind Management Model for happiness.

chimpmanagement.com

The Writing Groups is definitely a good place to road test work. People also tell you where you're going right, which is also useful.

And stepping away for a few months can also help. You might come back with different eyes or a new idea for it.

 

[E G Logan]

I found a great hint -- it certainly helped me to take a more positive view -- was to see each rejection as a prompt to send out another well-targeted submission. Or at least to research other potential recipient agents/publishers. That way, you're doing something positive instead of kicking the furniture, the cat, or some other unfortunate.

But you might find it useful first to quickly double check your list of agents/publishers. (I know these things because, embarrassingly, I have made these mistakes. I cringe to remember.)
-- Re-read what they are actually asking for, and make sure you give them precisely that. If they specify 12 pt Times Roman, don't give them 10pt Arial. If it's 5,000 words, don't give them 7,500, even if that takes things to a neat break. Make sure your ms. is neatly laid out, according to the established publishing conventions, and professional-looking. Don't create any logistical/procedural reasons for them to reject.
-- Check in the small print that they do deal with your kind of book. For example, quite a few agencies specify -- often in a very un-prominent part of their website -- that they do not deal in fantasy, and their definition of what is fantasy is can be surprisingly wide.

 

[Steve C]

We are in similar boats. One year in and a completed novel which we hope is great. I know mine is about as good as I can make it but only after rewriting it a few times after submitting to writers groups here. It's the way to go.

 

[RK Wallis]

I am a writer. I write. I'm an unpublished writer. I don't define myself by sales. I define myself by typing 'The End'.

This is so totally true. And we need to type 'The End' on a number of projects before our work is ready for consumption by a reader, but just because what we're writing isn't up to that standard yet, doesn't make anyone less of a writer. Let yourself accept that. Learn to enjoy the process. Learn to enjoy the catheterism in hitting 'delete'. Learn to listen to your gut.

I too hid away writing books for over a decade, but getting your work in front of other eyes will improve your work faster than anything you learnt in the earlier years. The Writing Groups will fast track your writing.

An analogy for you: writing is like shaping a pot. It takes practice, it takes patience. But invest the time, and soon you'll have a glazed pot.

I told myself, after a couple of 'The Ends', my fantasy was my practice novel. And after 2 years (I have a disability, so I'm a slow typer), I've just started querying that practice novel. As practice. It's been through countless critiques (many different eyes), and it goes to a beta reader in Jan. I still think it's lacking and I doubt it's ready, but I want that practice. I'm gonna milk that fantasy sucker for all I can, then I'm going to ditch it and write the next one. When an agent tweeted she had 10,000 queries and only accepted 3 this year, I have no expectations. Give yourself permission to write because you love it.

 

[LCValentine]

Thanks all. I am pretty meticulous about my sending to agents, I check the rules, adjust my query letter, my format, my layout, the word count, etc. based on requests to avoid that initial rejection. At present, I've probably sent out to about 40 odd agents, but heard back firm rejections from about 10. Silence I count as a rejection though. My target at the moment is to keep trying until the end of March, and if I've had no progress by then, look at self publishing.

It's worth saying that while this is my first attempt to write a novel, I've written the majority of my life in one form or another. I've written an awful lot of amateur online stories, and do play-by-post roleplay games set in various fictional universes (which essentially function somewhat like 'chain stories', except where you write from the point of view of your character only). Nothing publishable of course, but it certainly has kept my writing hat on. I'm also a Film graduate, so have some experience in at least filmic plotting and structure. This is just the first time I've tried to put those skills to a novel (at least, since I was a teenager).

Maybe at the moment the problem is that I am too passionate about a novel that simply isn't good enough. That might be the case. Maybe I need to let it go and go back to the drawing board. I still feel if that's the case, self publishing will at least get it out there, and I can then move on knowing at least people can read it if they want to, but it's a disappointing outcome to a novel I was passionate about.

 

[AgentPete]

As @Leonora says, put your name down for the next Huddle, two in January.

 

[LCValentine]

As @Leonora says, put your name down for the next Huddle, two in January.

Thanks! I will try. I need to get a microphone first! I actually don't have one.

 

[Barbara]

You've still got passion for it so I think you ought to keep going for now and persist with it. Maybe you're too close to it? I saw you've have a few chapters in the Writing Groups. If I were you, I'd see what kind of feedback comes back. (It's quiet here at the moment with Xmas, so it might take a little while). Then let it all fester for a few months. That's what I'd do anyway.

Have you had some time away from the novel? I find if I put it into the virtual drawer for a while (up to 6 months) and write something else, it reads differently when I come back to it. Two things usually happen to me: I either see its weaknesses and think 'meh' and move on, or I see the weaknesses but something about the novel re-ignites my passion for it and I can re-write it better because I'm now looking at it fresh and with distance; much more like an outsider would. My second novel was like that. I had it in a pop-up and Agent Pete told me where it fell down. He said put it away and start something new. I did. I shelved it and moved on to novel three. It's been a year now since I read it last, and I've just had an epiphany on how to re-write the beginning. I'm going back to it (after book 4) to re-work it.

Sometimes the process is slower than we like.

 

[RK Wallis]

You can always type. I can't talk so type and listen, it's just as enjoyable

 

[LCValentine]

You can always type. I can't talk so type and listen, it's just as enjoyable

Ah, that's helpful. I didn't know that. Yeah, that might help!

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Great advice here. You have to believe in yourself when no one else does. Master the loneliness of the long-distance writer. I've read advice from several literary agents, that of queries received, only 1% make it to the table for group discussion as to whether to take things further. Of that 1% one-tenth generate a request for a full manuscript; so, you've got one in a thousand chance of hearing something positive.

Get used to the word 'No.' Get used to being ignored. Then imagine this scenario: that everyone you see in a day—every one of them has written a book and submitted it to an agent—that's the opposition you're facing.

Writing isn't a game for softies. You'll eat a lot of worms.

Rejection letters are medals of honour. They provide you with the raw material to make bullets to fire back at agents (not literally!):

https://colony.litopia.com/threads/why-manuscripts-get-rejected.3135/#post-39380

 

[LCValentine]

Great advice here. You have to believe in yourself when no one else does. Master the loneliness of the long-distance writer. I've read advice from several literary agents, that of queries received, only 1% make it to the table for group discussion as to whether to take things further. Of that 1% one-tenth generate a request for a full manuscript; so, you've got one in a thousand chance of hearing something positive.

Get used to the word 'No.' Get used to being ignored. Then imagine this scenario: that everyone you see in a day—every one of them has written a book and submitted it to an agent—that's the opposition you're facing.

Writing isn't a game for softies. You'll eat a lot of worms.

Rejection letters are medals of honour. They provide you with the raw material to make bullets to fire back at agents (not literally!):

https://colony.litopia.com/threads/why-manuscripts-get-rejected.3135/#post-39380

Thanks. I totally understand that. I knew the odds going into this, when I started submitting I was in the head space of expecting rejection, planning to go the self publish route, etc. I thought I was ready for it.

But I find there's a difference between telling yourself you're ready for it and knowing the logic behind it (I know what I'm up against, for example), and actually facing streams of rejections coming in. It's keeping your confidence in the face of that.

I guess I should be flattered I've had a request for a complete manuscript. That means I must be doing something right. It's just keeping the confidence and keeping trying that I struggle with at the moment. Believing in yourself is much harder when you're constantly getting told your work isn't good enough, or at least that's how it feels sometimes.

 

[MartinR]

Hi LC (apologies I don't know your full name), I find your openness about this quandary and the excellent advice supplied already very inspiring. I've been in exactly that same place as you (as I suspect lots of fellow Litopians have been!) and I agree with everything that's been said so far. Initially, I began writing again for egotistical reasons, at least partly, but I've fallen back in love with the craft and am enjoying the process of constant improvement.

What I am trying to say is that the craft is a reward in itself, so that's something to hold on to. Also, Peter Laws, guest on Pop-Ups, has this excellent tip: "Embrace failure [or perceived failure]" because it makes your work stronger and improves your craft. All the advice seems to be if you love writing and persevere, you will get there. Maybe not with the novel you want, but you will get there.

With this particular novel, getting a full ms request is definitely an excellent sign that would indicate you're not far away, and the percentage call would be to keep going with submitting this one. I completely empathise with the dispiriting cycle of rejection, or worse, tumbleweed, too. I always try to remember the excitement of pre-submisssion and what made me love the project so much in the first place too. The support and unbiased feedback of other writers are invaluable weapons too.

Two further ways I found that helped me keep going were to pay a pro to read a portion of my novel if you can afford it (expensive, but helpful and potentially time-saving) to give you an objective reality check; and secondly keep reading inspiring books about the process. I found Andrew Cowan's The Art of Fiction to be humane and useful. You need to keep boosting yourself against what feels like a tidal wave of rejection, which can prejudice you against your work. The difficult thing is, as you rightly state, how do you keep believing? I think practical, positive steps are part of the answer. It may be that someone gives you some feedback that suddenly makes you think that the novel isn't quite as good as you thought or conversely, someone might feed back something that strengthens your belief in your work. With my first and second novels, I eventually realised that they weren't good enough and moved on. With the third, I'm in the same position as you! I think gut instinct is important too, as someone mentioned above. Once you've been through all the stages of feedback, beta reads, rewrites and so on, you'll ultimately come to a place where you'll know the right thing to do.

So if you can use all the advice given to withstand the barrage of rejection, and perhaps improve your novel too as a result of feedback, you will emerge stronger and with a better product. I hope some of this is helpful and thank you again for sharing. It's such an emotive topic for all us writers. I wish you all the luck in the world. Keep believing and writing.

 

[KateESal]

Or maybe the agent/publisher was irritated and in a non-receptive mood because he/she is wearing his T-shirt inside out.

Those damn T-shirts. The agents to whom I submit my work really need to get their clothes from somewhere else.

 

[CageSage]

The two sides of getting your writing published - and both of them have monsters on the other side of that door.
Trad publishers/agents are notoriously slow to respond and it can get disheartening. Worse is the silence of non-response. Even an email would be enough to enable the writer to choose other options, read the work fresh.

Self-publishing takes away that problem but creates new ones.
The need to learn all the skills req'd to do a good cover, a good blurb, a good advertising campaign. Oh, editing and proofreading.
And yet, many have gone the self-pub route and and then sit back expecting things to happen (sales, perhaps), and all they hear are the crickets lining up outside the door. The biggest problem with self-publishing is that the perceived quality of the work may not be as good as trad-published (not always the case, but perception by trad-snobs will negate sales for self-pubbed).

No path is easy, no path will lead to what we want to get back from our writing. The only thing that will keep us going through all these hurdles is the passion for the story. Every story. The willingness to continue learning and improving with each piece, going back and relearning skills we think we know, doing it all over again.

I call it self-flagellation, but the stories need to come forth and if I don't tell it, who will? Who can tell it the way I see it?
Ignore the stories and nightmares come, life twists into pretzels of time thinking about 'what if', the world dulls until the shimmers of story fade to black ...

Drag up those socks, pull out another skills training session, start again. No one else can tell the story the way you can tell the story, and if it takes ten years (hmmm, didn't it take Tolkien 13 years to write his story?) or more, it is still of value to you, a demonstration of the passion that allowed that story into the mind.

Write that story, keeping learning, write the next story - and make each one better than the last. Build a reputation based on best-practice ethics, skills, and persistence.

 

[LCValentine]

Thanks all for the support and advice so far. It is very useful to know how others feel and see how that affects each person and how they deal with it. For me, the biggest challenge is believing in the worth of what I've written, but I'm guessing that's something most authors struggle with. Rejection is tough but something I knew I'd experience a lot of, I'm just finding it slightly harder to weather than I expected.

(For those curious, my real name is Leigh, but 'Leigh Valentine' is a right wing American writer by that name, and I'd rather not be confused with her, so use 'LC' as an alias).

 

[CageSage]

If I were to be blunt in responding to this post, it would be to say that I'm never confident that my work is good.
It is the best I can make it with the tools and skills I have at the time. The next will be better if I work at it. Will any of my stories ever be good enough? Not for me to answer - the readers will decide what's good and what isn't, and I can learn from that but not answer it.

Confidence? That goes out the window every time the crickets invade, every time I hear someone's platitudes and offers of false hope. Those are the things I consider the enemy, as bad as my own mind when it tells me it might not be good enough, it might not have any value to any other reader.
I claw it back because I have stories to tell and life is short. The confidence comes from finishing a story to the point where it's the best it can be with the tools and skills I have at the moment.

 

[KateESal]

What enables me to keep the faith with my stories is the knowledge that my target demographic — 7-9 year-olds — genuinely enjoy them and want more. Children, especially if they don't know the author personally, tend to be pretty direct in giving their opinions and while they're not the best judges of craft, they can identify a good story when they hear or read one. I cling to that when the rejections roll in.

It's a bit harder with adults to know if they're genuinely enthusiastic about your work or not. Although that said, I witnessed my husband genuinely laughing and crying (real tears) when reading my YA novel, so his engagement was clear. We don't all have the privilege of witnessing the unfettered reactions of our readers, unfortunately....

But ultimately, for me, it's about the readers. If I can move a reader to genuine laughter, excitement or tears with my writing, then I know something good is going on.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

If I can interject by cautioning against polishing a story too much. In any exciting or moving tale, there will be boring sections—the longueurs—where your main character goes to lunch or does the washing up or refuels their car. It's hard to make those moments scintillating and nor should you try, as they anchor your protagonist in reality.

https://colony.litopia.com/threads/longueurs—the-boring-bits.4123/

 

[LCValentine]

What enables me to keep the faith with my stories is the knowledge that my target demographic — 7-9 year-olds — genuinely enjoy them and want more. Children, especially if they don't know the author personally, tend to be pretty direct in giving their opinions and while they're not the best judges of craft, they can identify a good story when they hear or read one. I cling to that when the rejections roll in.

It's a bit harder with adults to know if they're genuinely enthusiastic about your work or not. Although that said, I witnessed my husband genuinely laughing and crying (real tears) when reading my YA novel, so his engagement was clear. We don't all have the privilege of witnessing the unfettered reactions of our readers, unfortunately....

But ultimately, for me, it's about the readers. If I can move a reader to genuine laughter, excitement or tears with my writing, then I know something good is going on.

Oh, I totally get and understand this. My issue I guess at the moment is as this my first novel, I haven't had many people read to respond to it. The people who have have been positive, which helps, but it's such a limited pool it still leaves me feeling uneasy.

If I can interject by cautioning against polishing a story too much. In any exciting or moving tale, there will be boring sections—the longueurs—where your main character goes to lunch or does the washing up or refuels their car. It's hard to make those moments scintillating and nor should you try, as they anchor your protagonist in reality.

https://colony.litopia.com/threads/longueurs—the-boring-bits.4123/

This is definitely interesting to see. I think the film student in me means I tend to approach story structure in quite a filmic way, meaning that I try to stick to the typical 'advance the plot/characterisation' standard of plotting; if it's not serving a narrative purpose, I don't have it in there (or if you can cut it and it has no effect on the story, which is a very 'film' approach I find). But that said, I have several would-be boring sections where I've attempted to bake into them some story telling DNA to make them remain vital scenes.

Unfortunately, this has the side effect that my word count is a bit too long for a young adult audience and now there's not much I can easily remove without damaging the story structure.