Have women conquered the world of fiction?

[KateESal]

That's what this article suggests: How women conquered the world of fiction

I've got a lot of issues with the piece, not the least being what the writer considers to be fiction. Literary fiction for adults, essentially.

Chances are the writer didn't choose the title of the article, but it irked me that "fiction" is used as an over-arching term, when for the most part, the discussion doesn't seem to pay much attention to genre fiction and completely ignores children's and young adult fiction.

However, it certainly got me thinking and I'd be interested in your views.

I think it's true that much of the publishing industry nowadays is dominated by white, middle class women. So why is that, I wonder?

It's no secret that most publishing jobs are not very well paid. And of course, only a tiny percentage of novelists are successful enough to make a living out of it. Which means the rest have to do novel-writing in their spare time, while keeping up a day job to pay the bills.
Historically, lower-paid areas of employment have been female-dominated. Is there a link? And is this part of the explanation why fewer men are involved?

Is the perceived (and possibly real) female dominance of the fiction industry related to the fact that the majority of novel-readers are also women? And why is that?

Do readers even care what gender, colour, neurological type etc. an author is? Personally, I just want a thumping good read, no matter who wrote it. But am I typical of most readers?

The writer talks about a dearth of young, male fiction writers, but I'm not sure how accurate this is. Certainly in children's and YA fiction, I wouldn't say there's a dearth of male authors (but they are definitely less numerous than female authors).

I wonder if a lot of male fiction-writers are more drawn towards screen writing. This a very male-dominated area and certainly, the potential rewards are better.

Is it necessarily bad if there's a major gender imbalance when it comes to fiction writers (including screenwriters)? If the area is less accessible to the other gender, and if the POV of the other gender isn't being fairly represented in the published fiction (or TV/films).

If you've got a minute, read the article and post your thoughts. Whether you agree or disagree, I think it's an interesting conversation-starter.

 

[Vagabond Heart]

Oooh very interesting. What struck me most is how much people divide it into male or female authors, rather than just seeing them all as ... people. People who write the best, and most interesting books. That, on certain years, happen to be men, and on other years, are women. I hope I see that day come in my lifetime.

 

[Ancora Imparo]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. I got interrupted half way through but I'm going back to finish it. The most important quote (for me), was:
Northern Irish writer Darran Anderson agrees that “Class is the dirty secret of publishing”. He says: “Working-class male writers, largely kept out of writing for decades by a middle-class male literary establishment, are now expected to answer for a past that isn’t ours.” He believes the backlash against the big male writer is being borne heavily by his generation of working-class men. “And I have neither the desire nor the means to pick up Martin Amis’s or John Updike’s bill.”

I agree 100% with that. There was a horrible imbalance of middle-class white male writers (some with their heads wedged firmly up youknowwhere) and now the imbalance in publishing has shifted to middle-class white females. But it's still imbalance, and I believe imbalance hurts an industry more than it helps it. Imbalance is never good.

Also, most traditionally published writers are barely scraping a living wage (because the publishing industry is not only imbalanced, it's very greedy), and salaries for the ordinary people (not the greedy execs and owners) in the publishing world are generally so bad you need a rich spouse or a private income to work there. So, I think that's another reason why men would avoid the entire industry. Men expect higher wages because they've been getting higher wages than women for centuries, even when doing the same work.

I don't mind what colour, sex or creed a writer is – a good book is a good book. I hate the boxes all these industries feel compelled to stuff creatives into. But I think the imbalance matters. Imbalance in any area of life usually indicates a problem.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Interesting. Yes, I share your view that the author completely dismissed anything that wasn't literary fiction, and there are lots of men writing in genre fiction (and probably making tons more money than those literary fiction writers). I also think it needs to be pointed out that being a writer used to be something you could realistically pay the bills with, but it is no longer. Given that it's still often the male of a family who's the primary money maker, it makes sense that men would be less likely to become writers. How many of us are only able to write because our partner pays the mortgage? I know of many women in this situation, and only one man--culturally it's still seen as odd, and frankly, it can be difficult for a woman to pay the bills on her own, given pay disparities in other industries as well.

I do think it's something to be concerned about--as @Ancora Imparo said, imbalance usually indicates a problem. But I think the problem is where the money is being siphoned off in the publishing industry, and the fact so little goes to authors these days. If being a writer were actually a viable profession, you'd see more people of all sorts going into the profession.

 

[Hannah F]

I get annoyed with statements that praise the predominance of men/women/ethnic minorities/black/cis/gay etc in any line-up because such praise leads to bias in choices which leads to predominance. It should be about the quality of the work not the gender/nationality/colour/religious persuasion etc of the author. If this were the case, one award might well be 100% women, another 70% male, another 50% non-binary etc. In this day and age of supposed equal access, that should be what we find.

"genre/crime . . . less mediated by culture and conversation on twitter" - not the twitter feeds I read.

Why the predominance of middle-class cis women? I think there are three reasons which probably combine:
1. The advertising bias towards leveling the playing field between men and women in all the media industry, so the book publishing industry is piggy-backing on e.g, the film industry where there is a gender role issue. This may have the knock-on effect of men assuming they have less chance in this market so not as many attempt.

2. Men are generally more likely to read genre and non-fiction and so are more likely to write genre/non-fiction, but these have been omitted from this whole debate.

3. As mentioned, money. If you did a survey of source of sustainable, survivable income for writers, very few earn enough to make a living out of it. Even fewer earn enough to match peers in other industries. If you are not a live-in-the-garret, eat-from-the-foodbank writer, you probably have a spouse/partner who is the breadwinner. Most who fall into that category will be middle-class cis women, so this trend will continue until the financial gains even up the odds. Another point about literary fiction is that very few, outwith the prize shortlists, pay-off these enormous advances through sales (forgotten the correct lingo). The publishing house can cope with this gamble because their big-seller commercial (usually genre or memoir or celebrity bio) publications bring in the money. The literary fiction brings in their house name (e.g. 4th Estate - a HarperCollins imprint) on the prize list.

Perhaps the debate shouldn't be about gender or predominance at all but on how to create a financially rewarding industry that allows any author (who can write a good and commercial book) to become self-sustaining.

(They never mentioned the major publishing deals for Barrack Obama, Richard Osman. They never mentioned 2020 James Tait Prize shortlisted "Travellers" by Helon Habila: literary fiction by black male author of African roots).

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Perhaps the debate shouldn't be about gender or predominance at all but on how to create a financially rewarding industry that allows any author (who can write a good and commercial book) to become self-sustaining.

This!

 

[KateESal]

Interesting Twitter thread on the subject

 

[SteveWhy]

That's what this article suggests: How women conquered the world of fiction

I've got a lot of issues with the piece, not the least being what the writer considers to be fiction. Literary fiction for adults, essentially.

Chances are the writer didn't choose the title of the article, but it irked me that "fiction" is used as an over-arching term, when for the most part, the discussion doesn't seem to pay much attention to genre fiction and completely ignores children's and young adult fiction.

However, it certainly got me thinking and I'd be interested in your views.

I think it's true that much of the publishing industry nowadays is dominated by white, middle class women. So why is that, I wonder?

It's no secret that most publishing jobs are not very well paid. And of course, only a tiny percentage of novelists are successful enough to make a living out of it. Which means the rest have to do novel-writing in their spare time, while keeping up a day job to pay the bills.
Historically, lower-paid areas of employment have been female-dominated. Is there a link? And is this part of the explanation why fewer men are involved?

Is the perceived (and possibly real) female dominance of the fiction industry related to the fact that the majority of novel-readers are also women? And why is that?

Do readers even care what gender, colour, neurological type etc. an author is? Personally, I just want a thumping good read, no matter who wrote it. But am I typical of most readers?

The writer talks about a dearth of young, male fiction writers, but I'm not sure how accurate this is. Certainly in children's and YA fiction, I wouldn't say there's a dearth of male authors (but they are definitely less numerous than female authors).

I wonder if a lot of male fiction-writers are more drawn towards screen writing. This a very male-dominated area and certainly, the potential rewards are better.

Is it necessarily bad if there's a major gender imbalance when it comes to fiction writers (including screenwriters)? If the area is less accessible to the other gender, and if the POV of the other gender isn't being fairly represented in the published fiction (or TV/films).

If you've got a minute, read the article and post your thoughts. Whether you agree or disagree, I think it's an interesting conversation-starter.

I remember a literary bigwig saying once (anonymously) that writing was like the Olympics: boys competed with boys and girl girls.

 

[Vagabond Heart]

I remember a literary bigwig saying once (anonymously) that writing was like the Olympics: boys competed with boys and girl girls.

Really? Wow. Not the smartest thing he/she ever said then.

 

[SteveWhy]

Really? Wow. Not the smartest thing he/she ever said then.

He was describing the world he knew, and for his time, at least, he was probably accurate. As for today, I don't think we've progressed enough to say he's completely wrong, unfortunately.

 

[Robert M Derry]

It is an interesting topic, although, I would argue; does it matter what gender/race/sexuality dominates the industry?

I'd probably suggest that the group who can provide what the majority of the market wants will dominate the majority of the market. It's a well known fact that vastly more women read fiction than men, and it's naturally going to be easier for a female author to connect with a female audience, so why wouldn't there be more successful female authors?

If I look at my own bookshelf, most of the books I've read have been written by men. Most of my favourite authors are male and most of the books I read have male protagonists. This isn't by intention; I don't wander into Waterstones with the thought that I can only books written by men, it's just that the Sci-fi/fantasy/horror section tends to have more male authors in it (or at least male pseudonyms...).

Yet, when I buy books for my mum, I approach the search very differently because I know my mum wants to read different things. E.g. I bought my mum for Christmas "The things we left unsaid" by Emma Kennedy and she loved it, yet this is not a book I would buy for myself in a million years. That's not because it's a bad book, that's just because it's not for me.

Fundamentally it's a book written by a woman for women. No doubt if the same story/voice had been attempted by a man it would come out hollow.

There has to be an acceptance that the novel is a very personal form of expression in which the author seeks to form a personal connection with the reader. The author is often seeking to share underlying personal experiences and feelings and it's naturally easier to form those connections through shared experiences. People of the same gender, race and sexuality are more likely to share the same experiences and be able to speak to each other.

If a read a book by a female author with a female protagonist I'm sure that my perspective of the story is very different as a man. E.g. I loved the Handmaiden's Tale by Margaret Atwood and it's was a powerful story, but realistically I could only sympathise with the protagonist. I cannot truly imagine what it would be like to be her because I'm not a woman. I can't have her direct experiences; I can't get pregnant for one, so I don't really understand what that would feel like. In fact, my emotional reactions often came from seeing her plight from her lost husband's perspective - how angry and powerless would I feel if someone stole my wife?

All this above leaves me with no surprise that the market is dominated by women. Nor do I see it as a good or bad thing; it's just the nature of the market.

As to why men read less? Hard to say. I think the education system does little to help matters by trying to shove 'worthy' dated fiction down young people's throats. I also don't think it helps that we stifle debate and encourage closed minded ignorance; social media is just filled with entrenched mud-slinging rather than open minded discourse. I also don't think that we promote intellect and curiousity; many role models seem to get by on their looks and charisma.

But then why women get beyond this and still read, is hard to say. Do women have more natural imagination? Do men just find solace elsewhere? Is it just not cool to read? It's worth some investigation.

I don't agree that men don't write because it's low paid. Low pay is universal across all the creative industries and there are plenty of struggling male musicians, actors & screenwriters etc. Although men are paid more at the top end of those industries, so maybe that tips the scales.

 

[georginaK]

Oooh very interesting. What struck me most is how much people divide it into male or female authors, rather than just seeing them all as ... people. People who write the best, and most interesting books. That, on certain years, happen to be men, and on other years, are women. I hope I see that day come in my lifetime.

I think the publishing industry and money people have much more control over who is published/trend control than we’d like to believe

 

[georginaK]

Interesting....
“All it takes is one black woman winning the Booker prize and it’s the end of culture for some people,” says Byers. “Women and black people have been under-represented in fiction for decades and it doesn’t get sorted. But people get a whiff that men might be under-represented for even a year and it’s very urgent that we do something about it. Is this a genuine concern or is this about the dominant culture reasserting itself when it feels under threat?”

 

[georginaK]

This is an example of what I was referring to in my previous comment, ie trends make big money—
Widyaratna thinks that certain “received ideas” do need to be challenged – not least the reliance on “comp titles”, the system by which publishers consider a submission by comparing it to other similar books. The most obvious example of this has been the Sally Rooney phenomenon – in which every publisher rushed to find young female writers to fill what one called the “Rooney-shaped hole”.
“The reliance on that as a mode of thinking leads to publishers reproducing what already exists,” says Widyaratna. “It doesn’t allow publishers to innovate.”

 

[georginaK]

. It should be about the quality of the work not the gender/nationality/colour/religious persuasion etc of the author

If only this were true! Agent Pete himself, as well as other agents I know, openly admit that the most important thing to them is how much money they’ll make on the book they represent to publishers—quality of the work seems less of a priority

 

[georginaK]

If only this were true! Agent Pete himself, as well as other agents I know, openly admit that the most important thing to them is how much money they’ll make on the book they represent to publishers—quality of the work seems less of a priority

This is a direct quote from an agent I sent Shiny Bits to in earlier days:
“You are a lovely evocative writer, gosh I wish that were all it took these days to sell books and position them in the marketplace.”

 

[KateESal]

the Sci-fi/fantasy/horror section tends to have more male authors

Yes, this was one of my bugbears about the article: it pretty much ignored genre fiction.

There has to be an acceptance that the novel is a very personal form of expression in which the author seeks to form a personal connection with the reader. The author is often seeking to share underlying personal experiences and feelings and it's naturally easier to form those connections through shared experiences. People of the same gender, race and sexuality are more likely to share the same experiences and be able to speak to each other.

Good point. It's perfectly possible for men and women to write novels with universal appeal and certainly, many novels are deliberately (and successfully) pitched at both genders. Likewise, fiction featuring mainly non-white protagonists can and does appeal to white readers and vice-versa. But a lot of readers also enjoy exploring particular aspects of their own experience, which may not resonate in the same way to readers who don't share their gender or racial identity...so there, we get things like "contemporary women's fiction" and other genres/reader interest groups.

I think the education system does little to help matters by trying to shove 'worthy' dated fiction down young people's throats.

Yes, I agree about this. Recent changes to the literature curriculum taught in UK schools haven't helped. At our secondary school, we teach texts like Face by Benjamin Zephaniah, The Weight of Water by Sarah Crossan and The Hunger Games...all published within the last couple of decades and with definite appeal to younger readers who are boys as well as the girls. We've also taught Holes by Louis Sachar and Cirque du Freak (Darren Shan) and the same goes for them. Once you hit the GCSE syllabus, your options for texts that are more likely to resonate with modern teenage boys is much more limited (although, by then, the damage is usually done).

I don't agree that men don't write because it's low paid. Low pay is universal across all the creative industries and there are plenty of struggling male musicians, actors & screenwriters etc. Although men are paid more at the top end of those industries, so maybe that tips the scales.

Fair point.

If only this were true! Agent Pete himself, as well as other agents I know, openly admit that the most important thing to them is how much money they’ll make on the book they represent to publishers—quality of the work seems less of a priority

Yes, agents have to make a living and they often put many hours of work into developing a submission and securing a deal for it. Those hours of work are likely to go unpaid if they can't persuade a publisher of a decent financial return from the work. And publishers are also businesses which need to sell books to pay their staff and keep the enterprise profitable. So yes, unfortunately, as much as they may fall in love with someone's writing, they'll pass if they can't see a market for it.
Mind you, there are still niche publishers and boutique publishers who are willing to put out books with less mass-market appeal. And self-publishing is an option.
But yes, it's frustrating that great quality work gets swerved because of the need to make money from it.

 

[georginaK]

Yes, this was one of my bugbears about the article: it pretty much ignored genre fiction.

Good point. It's perfectly possible for men and women to write novels with universal appeal and certainly, many novels are deliberately (and successfully) pitched at both genders. Likewise, fiction featuring mainly non-white protagonists can and does appeal to white readers and vice-versa. But a lot of readers also enjoy exploring particular aspects of their own experience, which may not resonate in the same way to readers who don't share their gender or racial identity...so there, we get things like "contemporary women's fiction" and other genres/reader interest groups.

Yes, I agree about this. Recent changes to the literature curriculum taught in UK schools haven't helped. At our secondary school, we teach texts like Face by Benjamin Zephaniah, The Weight of Water by Sarah Crossan and The Hunger Games...all published within the last couple of decades and with definite appeal to younger readers who are boys as well as the girls. We've also taught Holes by Louis Sachar and Cirque du Freak (Darren Shan) and the same goes for them. Once you hit the GCSE syllabus, your options for texts that are more likely to resonate with modern teenage boys is much more limited (although, by then, the damage is usually done).

Fair point.

Yes, agents have to make a living and they often put many hours of work into developing a submission and securing a deal for it. Those hours of work are likely to go unpaid if they can't persuade a publisher of a decent financial return from the work. And publishers are also businesses which need to sell books to pay their staff and keep the enterprise profitable. So yes, unfortunately, as much as they may fall in love with someone's writing, they'll pass if they can't see a market for it.
Mind you, there are still niche publishers and boutique publishers who are willing to put out books with less mass-market appeal. And self-publishing is an option.
But yes, it's frustrating that great quality work gets swerved because of the need to make money from it.

Fortunately I found one of those niche indie publishers who loved my book enough to put it out in the world