Copy Editing

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Hi. I have just used a copy-editor and wished I'd done it two years ago! I self published as an ebook a couple of years ago after running my MS through MS Word a 100 times etc. Plus, I asked an english teacher friend to go through it and she also found silly errors that we don't see because we've probably read that page a dozen times that day alone. So, after reading it again several more times, I was happy to finally load the manuscript up and sit back and wait...
I got great reviews from readers and book reviewers but then one reviewer mentioned, and a paraphrase, that with editing this could be a great book but not bad for a first attempt! After berating him for a month or two, I realised he was probably right. Not about it being a great book but that it needed work. Doesn't matter if customers are only spending 99p or getting it for free, their are investing their time to read my work and so it should at least be the best I can make it.

After trying Pro-Writing Aid, which checking a 97000 word MS became a nightmare, I bit the bullet and got some quotes from copy-editors and they ranged from £600 to £1200. Taking in to account that all the profit from my ebook sales goes to two charities, I have always been mindful of how much money I put into this work, I went for the £600 quote.

I can't compare the editors work to any others but I think the lady has made a massive improvement to the MS. From the seeing a several simple spelling mistakes that I have no idea how I, an english teacher, MS Word and several beta readers didn't see, to changing grammar and sentence structure etc.
Personally, I would say that it is worth every penny the whole story just flows and reads much smoother now. Has it made a difference to the responses from agents I've sent it to? Absolutely not but at least I know that it is my work being rejected and not my spulling ;)
 
Thank you. By the way, I am very impressed (and happy to hear) that you are donating your profits to charity. May I ask which ones?
The RSPCA and the Fire Fighters Charity. I've probably spent about £1100 pounds so far on the editing, a previous MS assessment and several social media advertising for the ebook. I don't ever expect to see that back but it's worth it for the help the Fire Fighters Charity gave me for after an injury.
If you do go down the editors route, I'll happily pass on Gemma's contact details.
 
I have to say that sounds awfully expensive Paul V, unless both your books are exceptionally long. I had my 170,000 word novel professionally edited by a well-respected editor 3 years ago. It took the better part of 6 months and cost me £550. This was a regular, prep-for-publication edit, not a proof-read, but the proof read sort of came with it anyway. Though it was a traumatic exerience for a time, having my story ripped to shreds, after a 2 months sulk, I re-read it all and realised everything he'd said was spot on. I spent the next 2 years completely re-writing the thing and it's now an entirely different and way, way better novel than I ever expected it to be. Far and away the best money I've ever spent.
 
I have to say that sounds awfully expensive Paul V, unless both your books are exceptionally long. I had my 170,000 word novel professionally edited by a well-respected editor 3 years ago. It took the better part of 6 months and cost me £550. This was a regular, prep-for-publication edit, not a proof-read, but the proof read sort of came with it anyway. Though it was a traumatic exerience for a time, having my story ripped to shreds, after a 2 months sulk, I re-read it all and realised everything he'd said was spot on. I spent the next 2 years completely re-writing the thing and it's now an entirely different and way, way better novel than I ever expected it to be. Far and away the best money I've ever spent.
Had 4 quotes in November last year for the 97000+ word MS, synopsis, and intro letter and the £600 was the cheapest. The highest (more than double) was for an editor recommended by a very popular literary MS assessment company. As you mentioned, a proof read edit sort of came with it to a degree. It wasn't a structure edit.
 
Ages ago I used TLC for a manuscript assessment. First of all, although I had clearly marked it as YA, they gave it to a SciFi reader. After 8 weeks he sent me his report which included his recommendation to send it out as a YA book (sigh). I complained to the boss, who admitted the error, and they gave it to their YA person for no extra charge. So I waited for another 6-8 weeks. Both readers did a very thorough job, and I made use of both their comments. It was very useful and I'm glad I did it. But now after lots of work, plus input from Pete and other Litopians, I'm frustrated with its lack of progress on the agent front and wondering whether a good edit is now called for.
 
and that is the dilemma...

Do you go for a copy edit? Which was enough for me because of circumstance and I wanted a more enjoyable read for the reader. Or the full works, the expense that may cost and the possibility that you could end up back at square one?
I also thought that if my MS did ever get picked up, then the agency will want to run it through their own editing process anyway.

You could always just get the first three chapters edited? These are the ones most agents ask for aren't they? Plus you'll get a feel whether or not a full edit would have a significant impact on the MS.

I also had a TLC assessment and found it very useful in some aspects but limited in others. Many of the questions the assessor said were unanswered in the first 3 chapters, were clearly covered later in the book. Aren't most stories like that.....? Hey ho.
 
There is a fine balance to be achieved in the first few hundred words. Set the scene, explain the characters, reveal motivations, hint at back story.... BUT not too much... (Or as Pete told me here, "Pitch your universe strong, explain your character's objectives"). Show don't tell but don't show too much... Sometimes it seems like an impossible task. Capture the reader but keep them wanting more... Agh! But when you do manage to achieve it, hopefully you'll know o_O
 
All valid points that we aim for of course. So we tweak and change or even scrap and start again. Or, and this is just a thought, we all have a perfectly good stories that just haven't popped up at the right time, on the right day, in front of the right agent.
Anyway, back to your initial question, yes I would and would again.
Happy days :)
 
I write for publication but do editing for a living. What I charge the author is directly related to the state of the manuscript he or she submits to me. Some manuscripts are in pretty good shape to start with, and these will merit a fee at the lower end of a sliding scale. Others require much more work — occasionally a virtually complete rewrite. And then there's the question of length to consider. Added to this is the fact that some authors are difficult to deal with, and others do not pay their bills. I have not recently done any editing for less than $800 or for more than $2500. Editing does include a good deal of proofreading, but proofreading is a skill in itself that even a good editor may not possess.

To trust any of this work to "family and friends" or to "an English teacher" is a great mistake.
 
I write for publication but do editing for a living. What I charge the author is directly related to the state of the manuscript he or she submits to me. Some manuscripts are in pretty good shape to start with, and these will merit a fee at the lower end of a sliding scale. Others require much more work — occasionally a virtually complete rewrite. And then there's the question of length to consider. Added to this is the fact that some authors are difficult to deal with, and others do not pay their bills. I have not recently done any editing for less than $800 or for more than $2500. Editing does include a good deal of proofreading, but proofreading is a skill in itself that even a good editor may not possess.

To trust any of this work to "family and friends" or to "an English teacher" is a great mistake.
Agreed, entirely. Especially yr final sentence.
I, too, am a professional editor, both 'line editing' (or copy-editing) and 'creative editing' (up to and including complete rewrite/rework). [I do not actually have any spare capacity at the moment, so I'm NOT pitching for work.]
I do proof-reading as I go, but don't take on jobs that are only proof-reading (boring). I don't want to get into prices, but broadly I'm with you on that, too.
I've found the key thing is that the writer and the editor agree, before starting, on what (how much editing, of what sort) is wanted -- and even then it can go pear-shaped.
 
Also, a note to all:
the worst editing and the most shocking translation I've ever seen was done by machine.

The quality of different software programs varies, but it depends on the quality of whatever source is used. Some are hair-curlingly awful and, in my opinion, none of them are good.
 
I agree with both Tom's House and E G Logan.

Just to note, the copyediting addresses the grammar but what good is a copy written in perfect English, if the content isn’t right? The content edit ensures the manuscript will grab the attention of the reader. It looks for inconsistencies, factual errors, plot holes, etc.
 
As do I. Unfortunately I just realised that after I'd tried the previous two options. I would add, and again I can't compare copy-editors, but I would imagine any copy-editor whilst working on a MS, would highlight and/or change inconsistencies and question facts if they are unsure. Mine certainly did but did not go further to suggest structural changes. I suppose it depend what you want from the editing process.
 
What you get from the editing process depends entirely on what you agreed to pay the editor for. They're running a business, after all. If what you agreed to was copy editing, then that's what you're going to get. If you want both content and copy editing, it's going to cost more, and you have to find someone who does both. That's why it's important to discuss things like that up front when you're discussing pricing. Copy editing and content editing are two entirely different animals. Editors who do both will often do those separately so they can give each aspect their full concentration.

I would also strongly encourage anyone trying out a new editor for the first time to request a free sample edit. Most will give you up to 1,000 words edited for free, so you can both determine whether you will work well together. This also gives you the chance to see their editing style.

I wrote a Writing Wiki blog post on this a few months ago. You might find the information in it helpful.
 
Yes they are different, yes it is important to know what you want/expect from the edit and how much you want or can afford to pay, yes I would advise researching/reviewing the editor you choose and yes, it is important to have those discussions from the start...
Perhaps I just had a helpful and lovely editor who went that bit further than a basic copy-edit.
 
What you get from the editing process depends entirely on what you agreed to pay the editor for. They're running a business, after all. If what you agreed to was copy editing, then that's what you're going to get. If you want both content and copy editing, it's going to cost more, and you have to find someone who does both. That's why it's important to discuss things like that up front when you're discussing pricing. Copy editing and content editing are two entirely different animals. Editors who do both will often do those separately so they can give each aspect their full concentration.

I would also strongly encourage anyone trying out a new editor for the first time to request a free sample edit. Most will give you up to 1,000 words edited for free, so you can both determine whether you will work well together. This also gives you the chance to see their editing style.

I wrote a Writing Wiki blog post on this a few months ago. You might find the information in it helpful.

I've been researching this and have seen rates of anywhere from 1.5c per word, up to 6c per word, depending on services. At 6c per word, my manuscript would cost a whopping $9600 to edit both content and copy. And I don't think they refund what they recommend you cut! :)
 
I’ve never seen rates that high, but it’s been a while since I checked. The ranges I remember are from .03 cents per word to 1 cent per word. That high end is for both line and content editing of the MS.

@Island Writer is a professional editor. She likeky knows the current rate range.
 
UK rates are usually by the hour, or perhaps by the 1,000w. But depending entirely on the work involved.
Yes they are different, yes it is important to know what you want/expect from the edit and how much you want or can afford to pay, yes I would advise researching/reviewing the editor you choose and yes, it is important to have those discussions from the start...
Perhaps I just had a helpful and lovely editor who went that bit further than a basic copy-edit.
Perhaps he/she found you a good and cooperative client?
 
Hi Rachel (and thanks, Carol)

Sorry to be so late with this post – I've been buried in work recently!

I'm a professional editor and a member of the Society for Editors and Proofreaders (SfEP), the only professional editorial society in the UK. It's the only place traditional publishers go to recruit their freelance editors, so you're in safe hands. Their focus is on upholding the standards of editorial excellence.

The best place to look for an editor is through their Directory where you will find Professional and Advanced Professional editors and can search by genre or keyword.

If you haven't managed to find a suitable editor, send me a PM.
 
Do you get your work professionally copy-edited before submitting to agents, or rely on friends/family? What is the going rate (say in the UK) for a decent copy-editor? And how on earth do you pick one?
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I know someone who edits. Although he's from the UK, he's worked for people all over the world. He charges around $10 per 1k or roughly 7.5 GBP. I wouldn't hesitate to ask him to edit something I've written.

What I would do aside, it's hard to pick an editor. There are all kinds of people who hung up a shingle and started calling themselves editors when the interweb and self-publishing got exciting. It's possible they're good. It's also possible they suck. Also, despite my complete confidence in my friend's editing experience and skill, I wouldn't necessarily trust what others tell you. The interweb is overflowing with bad advice and not so skilled technical experts doing half assed jobs.

At least with a line edit, it's less subjective than a developmental edit. I would suggest submitting a sample chapter to someone before hiring them.

Because I'm sneaky I'd also slide some extra errors in the chapter.

Also--reedsy does have lots of real live editors on it. The ones who have New York type credits seem prohibitively expensive. I'm not so sure they're vetted. At one point I was looking at setting up a profile--and I'm pretty sure I did. There weren't any impediments such as vetting or tests preventing me from doing so. That may have changed. I think I didn't pursue the idea because I got work from one of the other places I've hung up a shingle--so to speak.

In terms of editing organizations, I'd look at their requirements to join. Is it only a fee? Or, does it require a certain number of credits? What sort of credits are they?

By credits I mean books they have edited which were then published. At which point you look at who published them. Then ask yourself if that is what you want.

I think part of the issue with picking an editor might be that they don't really get credit in the same sense that writers, publishers, and cover artists do. Traditionally they've been part of the seamless process of producing a book which publishers used to be responsible for.
 
I've been researching this and have seen rates of anywhere from 1.5c per word, up to 6c per word, depending on services. At 6c per word, my manuscript would cost a whopping $9600 to edit both content and copy. And I don't think they refund what they recommend you cut! :)

That's almost $80 per 1k. That is pretty expensive.

I thought I'd point out she's asking about copy editing. Copy editing is a different sort of edit. A developmental edit would recommend parts of the ms be cut and/or changed.
 
Reedsy doesn't vet the user, they vet the editor etc, to make sure they've done what they say they've done. Hope they helps. I've used one of the New York editors and I found the whole experience a pleasure.
 
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