Agents across the pond.

[Hannah F]

Several litopians have beta read the whole thing and said they liked it.
I had some feedback for things to work on from them; Some characters that were weak, the second half wasn't as strong as the first, some niggles that needed unniggling...
I dealt with them as best i could.
Overall, it was deemed to be almost ready (once said niggles were dealt with).

Honestly, three rewrites seems like overkill to me. I am, however, reading that as rewriting from a blank page, from scratch; if that's incorrect, I apologise. I don't think i could stomach starting from scratch again even once.
I've been through the manuscript a dozen times for a variety of different issues. (Proof, development, structure...) And on the last few goes through, I didn't change anything. Just read it straight through and thought "ok. This is it. This is as good as it's going to get."

I think I've probably reached a skill ceiling. I'm simply not good enough.

Reads like you've picked the right stage to submit. Remember though, rejections don't mean you're not good enough. They just mean you're not the right fit for that agent at that time. And you've only tried a very small sample of agents.

 

[Hannah F]

Regarding re-writes, I suspect this is advice for pantsers. If you have a good working plot and sub-plot, you'll probably have to do little bits of re-writes after beta-readers' developmental feedback, but you shouldn't have to re-write the whole thing. I'd bet my bottom dollar (odd phrase - anyone know it's origin?) that those authors who produce two books a year spend most of it editing, not re-writing.

 

[ChantalS]

Regarding re-writes, I suspect this is advice for pantsers. If you have a good working plot and sub-plot, you'll probably have to do little bits of re-writes after beta-readers' developmental feedback, but you shouldn't have to re-write the whole thing. I'd bet my bottom dollar (odd phrase - anyone know it's origin?) that those authors who produce two books a year spend most of it editing, not re-writing.

I have yet to read one of those two a year books and think it any good, to be honest.

I’m not going to engage in yet another argument on here but I had an outline, a plot and am not a pantser. I’m doing my third rewrite. As the saying goes, the magic is in the edit.

 

[E G Logan]

They just mean you're not the right fit for that agent at that time. And you've only tried a very small sample of agents.

Agreed.

 

[LJ Beck]

This is the sixth book I've finished (only the second I've seriously pursued publishing with). I'm already a quarter of the way through the seventh.
Writing is indeed the bit i live for. It's the fun bit. Even editing is fun up to a point.
Marketing ... I have no skills in that area, which is where an agent/publisher would be quite handy ha ha.

Wow!!! That's awesome! Yes, writing and marketing are two VERY different skills. I would venture to say that most writers feel like you do. I know I do as well. Which is why there are agents. haha.

 

[James Charles]

Agreed with all. Just have to find the right agent. There are hundreds out there. In any event, how many have read books published by major publishers or their imprints and wonderd how in the hell was this published? One of those same agents who turned you down picked this book up for representation? That means while they said your book was not right for them, this crap was?

 

[Vagabond Heart]

I think I've probably reached a skill ceiling. I'm simply not good enough

I respectfully disagree.

 

[RK Wallis]

This is the sixth book I've finished (only the second I've seriously pursued publishing with). I'm already a quarter of the way through the seventh.
Writing is indeed the bit i live for. It's the fun bit. Even editing is fun up to a point.
Marketing ... I have no skills in that area, which is where an agent/publisher would be quite handy ha ha.

Remember Brandon Sanderson was on his 14th book when his 6th was picked up. Look where he is now...

 

[Jake E]

Remember Brandon Sanderson was on his 14th book when his 6th was picked up. Look where he is now...

From what i recall, he was doing a college/university course, working nights and wriring at the same time. And still managed to pump out 13/14 books.
The man was/is a machine.

 

[Rachel Caldecott]

9 ha ha.
7 out of hand rejections. 2 pending

My book, The Panopticon Experiment, was rejected by many, many more than that (well into double figures). I probably beat JK Rowling for the number of rejections. Eventually, downhearted and doubting myself, I self-published. A couple of Litopians have since read my book and liked it. The first chapter was even featured on one of the Litopian podcasts and, although it was a YA book, a well-known veteran Hollywood actress bought 6 copies to give to friends. What I'm trying to say is that the book itself wasn't too bad, but I have since gone back and reread my query letters. They sucked! Reading them, I bored myself. On the basis of those query letters, they were right to reject me.

Don't beat yourself up and think your writing isn't good enough. My advice is to look long and hard at your query letters/synopses. Agent Pete has good advice on these. Run them by other Litopians, and the infamous query shark.

Good luck!

 

[Rachel Caldecott]

Remember Brandon Sanderson was on his 14th book when his 6th was picked up. Look where he is now...

Sadly, publishers now do expect the author to do a lot of the PR/Marketing themselves.

 

[Pamela Jo]

No

Several litopians have beta read the whole thing and said they liked it.
I had some feedback for things to work on from them; Some characters that were weak, the second half wasn't as strong as the first, some niggles that needed unniggling...
I dealt with them as best i could.
Overall, it was deemed to be almost ready (once said niggles were dealt with).

Honestly, three rewrites seems like overkill to me. I am, however, reading that as rewriting from a blank page, from scratch; if that's incorrect, I apologise. I don't think i could stomach starting from scratch again even once.
I've been through the manuscript a dozen times for a variety of different issues. (Proof, development, structure...) And on the last few goes through, I didn't change anything. Just read it straight through and thought "ok. This is it. This is as good as it's going to get."

I think I've probably reached a skill ceiling. I'm simply not good enough.

No not initially from blank page. More like when you start a house renovation. You start off to fix the leaking roof-find out the joists have actually rotted replace them but the guy who replaces them tells you your chimney needs repointing and they tell you you need a chimney sweep. The Chimney sweep finds flaws in the wiring ...etc. So by evolution as you learn the craft you end up with a much better book after doing this about 3 times. The bad ones just curl up in a drawer somewhere to die like John Steinbeck's werewolf story that his estate STILL won't release even tho we all want to read it.
Beta readers who find nothing wrong are called well-meaning friends and family. I'm sure if I read you I would like it-but I might not say that it is not yet saleable if I feel you aren't ready to hear that. There IS something wrong or you would have been snapped up by now. Agents and publishers aren't THAT bad at their jobs.
Can you bring a synopsis to Huddle? This is where Pete is invaluable. You can get a taste of what is happening when an agent sees your manuscript.
I've felt that about skill level then I pushed through to the other side. Better voice, better control of the whole process. I got there by going for the 3rd draft. Not by writing another book. I have written 3 now, but I've learned more by trying to fix my first than writing it's sequel. If you want to get better-the better is there waiting. You may really just need a professional voice to help you calibrate. I've read some of what you've written. It's promising. It's worth figuring out where you are weak.
With me it was in the synopsis. I just couldn't see it until I got to a better skill level.

 

[E G Logan]

That means while they said your book was not right for them, this crap was?

Most likely because they knew it was what someone – ie. a publisher – specifically had asked for, or was known to be looking for.

I think when an agent goes: 'Yes!' and punches the air, it's more because he/she has found something they know they can sell, and to whom, than because the agent personally adores this book. Though, if true, that helps, obviously.

 

[E G Logan]

They sucked! Reading them, I bored myself. On the basis of those query letters, they were right to reject me.

My first query/submission letters were simply embarrassing. Real curl up and die stuff. And because I was following advice in an out of date (but authoritative in its day) book, I thought I was doing exactly the right thing!

 

[Hannah F]

There IS something wrong or you would have been snapped up by now. Agents and publishers aren't THAT bad at their jobs.

Not necessarily. That is one possibility, but there are many more e.g. they have something too similar on their list and don't want a conflict of interest in pushing it forward; they love the genre but not precisely that niche of the genre; they are almost full with what they can cope with and are looking for something in particular before they close to submissions - this work, no matter how good it is, is not the particular they are looking for; they don't think this book fits the predicted market in two years time (the average time from acceptance to publication) - if that is the case, the book's moment will come as market preferences cycle.

There are many great books that don't quite make it to publication. Yet. Just look at the pop-up guest of two weeks ago. She got rejected for 8 years. Self-publication proved there was a market for her stories (she's obviously good at marketing too) and now a trad. publisher believes her and has given her a deal.

 

[Barbara]

I agree with Hannah. It's not necessarily because of the quality of sub. Sometimes the agent simply doesn't feel excitited enough. I know they say that but I think there's a lot of truth in it. On a different day they may feel different about a sub. Thing is, when you (agent) get 100s of subs a week, they have the pick of so many and get super extra fussy. They also have hardly any time to go through them all. They may even not read the subs properly. With that many up for grabs, it's easy to miss stuff or simply feel over-subbed.

Agent-author is a 2 way relationship and sometimes the connection (via email) just doesn't sing.

Someone earlier made a library comparison. I think that sums it up for me. Only 1 book in so many will appeal to an individual's tastes.

 

[Jonny]

I have a read through the thread and comments, Jake, and have also seen some of your material previously.

To me, you write well in your preferred genre, so let's not have any more of this old: "haven't got the skills" malarkey.

There's a lot of good advice here and I know you know this, but this is a tough old game and it's often down to bloody-minded tenacity and adopting a not giving up spirit.

If you see a door in front of you bang on it again and again. Also, I don't think you should just query agents that appear to be you genre. I'm sure there are plenty more out there unaware that you are their next big client. They just don't know it yet and they won't either... unless you approach them too.

The phrase what have you got to lose? springs to mind.

Publishing is a merry-go-round with agents and editors changing horses all the time. What's to say that an agent / publisher purporting to be (say) a crime fiction specialist, hasn't just appointed a new go-getting-keen-to-make-an-impression-agent / editor with a penchant for comedy fantasy?

 

[ChantalS]

I have a read through the thread and comments, Jake, and have also seen some of your material previously.

To me, you write well in your preferred genre, so let's not have any more of this old: "haven't got the skills" malarkey.

There's a lot of good advice here and I know you know this, but this is a tough old game and it's often down to bloody-minded tenacity and adopting a not giving up spirit.

If you see a door in front of you bang on it again and again. Also, I don't think you should just query agents that appear to be you genre. I'm sure there are plenty more out there unaware that you are their next big client. They just don't know it yet and they won't either... unless you approach them too.

The phrase what have you got to lose? springs to mind.

Publishing is a merry-go-round with agents and editors changing horses all the time. What's to say that an agent / publisher purporting to be (say) a crime fiction specialist, hasn't just appointed a new go-getting-keen-to-make-an-impression-agent / editor with a penchant for comedy fantasy?

Not sure if I agree with the last part, since it comes down to knowing the right editors and having the correct contacts from what I’ve been told. But I do agree that it’s a numbers game. You’ve just gotta keep banging on doors as Jonny said. There are so many reasons to say no, as previously stated, and so often it is far from your writing not being good enough. In a chat with Laura Zats (Headwater) she said she came across something last year that she loved and knew would be successful but immediately recognized she wasn’t the right agent to make it sing. She didn’t have the right skill set as an agent to do the initial pass through as an agent to get it to an editors standards - but she loved it and saw the potential. A year later she saw on publishers marketplace that it had been sold and she was like yup, that makes sense. So yeah - sometimes it’s entirely about them and not you.

 

[Jake E]

Not sure if I agree with the last part, since it comes down to knowing the right editors and having the correct contacts from what I’ve been told. But I do agree that it’s a numbers game. You’ve just gotta keep banging on doors as Jonny said. There are so many reasons to say no, as previously stated, and so often it is far from your writing not being good enough. In a chat with Laura Zats (Headwater) she said she came across something last year that she loved and knew would be successful but immediately recognized she wasn’t the right agent to make it sing. She didn’t have the right skill set as an agent to do the initial pass through as an agent to get it to an editors standards - but she loved it and saw the potential. A year later she saw on publishers marketplace that it had been sold and she was like yup, that makes sense. So yeah - sometimes it’s entirely about them and not you.

It feels like trying to get a date, ha ha.
It's not you, it's me.

 

[ChantalS]

It feels like trying to get a date, ha ha.
It's not you, it's me.

A little bit, lol!!

 

[ChantalS]

A little bit, lol!!

I think it sometimes can come down to an agent knowing their own skill set though, and their own limitations, and knowing a book deserves the best chance and not wanting to f*ck it up. That was the impression I got. I was in a zoom with Laura via a patreon group I'm in, it wasn't a big conference thing, so a small group of us were pressing her on this issue (nicely of course). She was saying that she really loved this book but knew in her heart she couldn't do it justice and it would be unfair to kind of half ass it. It would be better to let someone who had a better skill set work on it. She wouldn't say what book, so I don't know if it was a genre thing or what the issue was, but I think that happens quite a bit. I'd rather have that than someone with a big ego who takes on everything and does a crap job with all of it.

 

[Hannah F]

I think it sometimes can come down to an agent knowing their own skill set though, and their own limitations, and knowing a book deserves the best chance and not wanting to f*ck it up. That was the impression I got. I was in a zoom with Laura via a patreon group I'm in, it wasn't a big conference thing, so a small group of us were pressing her on this issue (nicely of course). She was saying that she really loved this book but knew in her heart she couldn't do it justice and it would be unfair to kind of half ass it. It would be better to let someone who had a better skill set work on it. She wouldn't say what book, so I don't know if it was a genre thing or what the issue was, but I think that happens quite a bit. I'd rather have that than someone with a big ego who takes on everything and does a crap job with all of it.

I've heard the same on a Bookends literary agency podcast.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Not necessarily. That is one possibility, but there are many more e.g. they have something too similar on their list and don't want a conflict of interest in pushing it forward; they love the genre but not precisely that niche of the genre; they are almost full with what they can cope with and are looking for something in particular before they close to submissions - this work, no matter how good it is, is not the particular they are looking for; they don't think this book fits the predicted market in two years time (the average time from acceptance to publication) - if that is the case, the book's moment will come as market preferences cycle.

There are many great books that don't quite make it to publication. Yet. Just look at the pop-up guest of two weeks ago. She got rejected for 8 years. Self-publication proved there was a market for her stories (she's obviously good at marketing too) and now a trad. publisher believes her and has given her a deal.

The something wrong may be that it is not saleable in todays market, but that is still going to get rejected by the next 40 agents. The problem with writing a lot of books without learning how to self-edit and rewrite is that you just repeat the same mistakes. You have to learn those skills at some point. If the question is, "Do I send out even more query letters or have a look at why I've been rejected?", then which answer is more likely to get you published in the end?
The logical flaw in the argument that 'persistence always wins' leaves out the information on what the writer was doing while continuing to submit. It's a bit like you always find the lost thing the last place you look.
I'm betting those who are finally published spent the time working on craft and all the other skills like marketing that have to come together before someone will pay money to read your work.

 

[Jake E]

The something wrong may be that it is not saleable in todays market, but that is still going to get rejected by the next 30 agents. If the question is, "Do I send out even more query letters or have a look at why I've been rejected?", then which answer is more likely to get you published in the end?

This is the thing.
Without any feedback i.e. only getting form rejections, how do I know?
The manuscript, synopsis and letter have been workshopped here on Litopia extensively.
They are as good as I'm going to get them.

If it's not saleable in todays market, fair enough, but there is effectively nothing I can do about that. I write what I write.

If i exhaust all British agents, I'll move to submitting across the pond, and if i exhaust all of them... I'll be back here asking about self publishing and marketing lol.

 

[Hannah F]

This is the thing.
Without any feedback i.e. only getting form rejections, how do I know?
The manuscript, synopsis and letter have been workshopped here on Litopia extensively.
They are as good as I'm going to get them.

If it's not saleable in todays market, fair enough, but there is effectively nothing I can do about that. I write what I write.

If i exhaust all British agents, I'll move to submitting across the pond, and if i exhaust all of them... I'll be back here asking about self publishing and marketing lol.

Good plan

 

[Pamela Jo]

This is the thing.
Without any feedback i.e. only getting form rejections, how do I know?
The manuscript, synopsis and letter have been workshopped here on Litopia extensively.
They are as good as I'm going to get them.

If it's not saleable in todays market, fair enough, but there is effectively nothing I can do about that. I write what I write.

If i exhaust all British agents, I'll move to submitting across the pond, and if i exhaust all of them... I'll be back here asking about self publishing and marketing lol.

I'm just curious why you wouldn't think about self-publishing now?

 

[ChantalS]

To be fair, Litopia is not the only place to get feedback. It's good to be a part of a variety of groups with people from a variety of backgrounds. Nothing wrong with Litopia but whenever anybody gets stuck on just one group (for anything - art, computers, writing, sport, ANYTHING) I think you can get stuck in a bubble/loop.

It's really hard to know if it's the query or manuscript. I haven't queried yet but know I'm going to be a neurotic mess when the time comes. I am not looking forward to the process. I can only imagine how frustrating this is!

 

[Jake E]

I'm just curious why you wouldn't think about self-publishing now?

Because I'm lazy ha ha.
I don't have the skillset or desire to market a book. That's what I want an agent and publisher to do while I write.
Sure, I understand there will be a certain amount of work in that area for me to do even them but it won't be nearly as much as self publishing

 

[Jake E]

To be fair, Litopia is not the only place to get feedback. It's good to be a part of a variety of groups with people from a variety of backgrounds. Nothing wrong with Litopia but whenever anybody gets stuck on just one group (for anything - art, computers, writing, sport, ANYTHING) I think you can get stuck in a bubble/loop.

It's really hard to know if it's the query or manuscript. I haven't queried yet but know I'm going to be a neurotic mess when the time comes. I am not looking forward to the process. I can only imagine how frustrating this is!

It is smoke and mirrors. So frustrating in the extreme.

 

[ChantalS]

Because I'm lazy ha ha.
I don't have the skillset or desire to market a book. That's what I want an agent and publisher to do while I write.
Sure, I understand there will be a certain amount of work in that area for me to do even them but it won't be nearly as much as self publishing

Samesies