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Agents across the pond.

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There's also, of course, the possibility that your subs were read by a 20 year old intern who has no clue about the publishing industry, let alone book trends, who spends her/his working days doing everything in the agency for the payment of a sandwich and a train ticket and 'oh invaluable experience', and who has finally realised that there's no job waiting for him/her at the end of the 6 months internship and, really, at this point being at home with mum, or on the dole, would be preferable. And now he/she has to read submission number 99 of the week.

Not that I'm cynical or anything.
 
Barbara said:
There's also, of course, the possibility that your subs were read by a 20 year old intern who has no clue about the publishing industry, let alone book trends, who spends her/his working days doing everything in the agency for the payment of a sandwich and a train ticket and 'oh invaluable experience', and who has finally realised that there's no job waiting for him/her at the end of the 6 months internship and, really, at this point being at home with mum, or on the dole, would be preferable. And now he/she has to read submission number 99 of the week.

Not that I'm cynical or anything.
Click to expand...
If that's the case, the publishing industry is more f*cked than we'd originally surmised
 
Unionized employees at HarperCollins Publishers have spent more than 50 days on strike. Their prolonged fight tests the limits of worker power in publishing and other white collar industries.

More than 200 workers at one of the largest publishing companies in the country have been on strike for months now. Striking workers at HarperCollins Publishing held a rally last week at the steps of News Corp, the publisher's parent company, and plan to stay out longer. NPR's Andrew Limbong reports.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: A contract.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: When do we want it?

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Now.

ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: It's been kind of rainy and dreary in New York City lately. But on Wednesday, the sun was out as crowds of people rallied outside of News Corp's corporate offices in support of the HarperCollins union workers.

PARRISH TURNER: We're a little tired, but morale is still quite high.

LIMBONG: Parrish Turner is an editorial assistant at HarperCollins. The striking workers have spent these past 50 business days sending a rotating group of people over to picket at the HarperCollins office. For Turner, it's been an exhausting but invigorating experience.

TURNER: Historically, when I've hung out with other publishing people, it tends to be very, like, our industry is so bad. And it's just them complaining about work. When we're gathering, we're actively working to make publishing a better place.

LIMBONG: The HarperCollins union has been on strike since mid-November, but they'd been working without a contract since April. The major asks from the union are, one, stronger union protections, two, more support for diverse employees and three, higher wages, particularly for folks at the bottom tier who the union wants to see get paid at least 50,000 a year. HarperCollins declined to offer anyone up for an interview, but sent a statement saying they've negotiated in good faith with the union for more than a year. But, quote, "unfortunately, union leadership continues to push far-reaching demands rather than working together to come to a fair and reasonable agreement for both sides," though workers and union leaders I talked to said they haven't heard from management since the strike began.

ERIC BLANC: This is a sign that employers feel like they don't have to come to the table.

LIMBONG: Eric Blanc is an assistant professor of labor studies at Rutgers University.

BLANC: When you're up against such a powerful boss who remains dead set in trying to prevent workers from winning their demands, it's going to come to the broader labor movement, the broader public and politicians to put their weight to bear.

CHELSEA HENSLEY: The longer it goes, the more people would like to see it resolved and resolved in the union's favor.

LIMBONG: Chelsea Hensley is a literary agent at KT Literary. Agents are the people who take new books from authors and sell them to publishers. And Hensley helped organize an open letter of other literary agents supporting the union, stating they wouldn't be sending any new projects to HarperCollins beyond those already under contract until an agreement is reached. More than 200 signed.

HENSLEY: I myself have four submissions that were going out this month that Harper's not getting. If you do that math, that's hundreds of submissions that Harper's not getting that their competitors are getting.

LIMBONG: Speaking of competitors and the publishing game, there are only a handful of other big companies making up the so-called Big Five publishing houses. Of these, HarperCollins is the only one with a union. According to Blanc, the labor professor, it's a remnant of the white-collar organizing wave of the 1940s that hit a dead end with the 1947 Taft-Hartley Act, which, among other things, expelled radicals from union leadership positions.

BLANC: The white-collar union movement really didn't survive in most places. And what's anomalous is the HarperCollins union did survive and lived to see an uptick in the 1970s and then particularly in the last recent years, a more major uptick. But that hasn't yet spread to the other four of the Big Five publishing companies.

LIMBONG: But if the HarperCollins union gets the wages and protections they're asking for, it could set a higher standard for the rest of the publishing industry going forward, even if they're not unionized. It's an uphill climb, though. The striking workers have been without a paycheck for months now, but they're already planning another big rally in February.

Andrew Limbong, NPR News.
 
ChantalS said:
Unionized employees at HarperCollins Publishers have spent more than 50 days on strike. Their prolonged fight tests the limits of worker power in publishing and other white collar industries.

More than 200 workers at one of the largest publishing companies in the country have been on strike for months now. Striking workers at HarperCollins Publishing held a rally last week at the steps of News Corp, the publisher's parent company, and plan to stay out longer. NPR's Andrew Limbong reports.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: A contract.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: When do we want it?

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Now.

ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: It's been kind of rainy and dreary in New York City lately. But on Wednesday, the sun was out as crowds of people rallied outside of News Corp's corporate offices in support of the HarperCollins union workers.

PARRISH TURNER: We're a little tired, but morale is still quite high.

LIMBONG: Parrish Turner is an editorial assistant at HarperCollins. The striking workers have spent these past 50 business days sending a rotating group of people over to picket at the HarperCollins office. For Turner, it's been an exhausting but invigorating experience.

TURNER: Historically, when I've hung out with other publishing people, it tends to be very, like, our industry is so bad. And it's just them complaining about work. When we're gathering, we're actively working to make publishing a better place.

LIMBONG: The HarperCollins union has been on strike since mid-November, but they'd been working without a contract since April. The major asks from the union are, one, stronger union protections, two, more support for diverse employees and three, higher wages, particularly for folks at the bottom tier who the union wants to see get paid at least 50,000 a year. HarperCollins declined to offer anyone up for an interview, but sent a statement saying they've negotiated in good faith with the union for more than a year. But, quote, "unfortunately, union leadership continues to push far-reaching demands rather than working together to come to a fair and reasonable agreement for both sides," though workers and union leaders I talked to said they haven't heard from management since the strike began.

ERIC BLANC: This is a sign that employers feel like they don't have to come to the table.

LIMBONG: Eric Blanc is an assistant professor of labor studies at Rutgers University.

BLANC: When you're up against such a powerful boss who remains dead set in trying to prevent workers from winning their demands, it's going to come to the broader labor movement, the broader public and politicians to put their weight to bear.

CHELSEA HENSLEY: The longer it goes, the more people would like to see it resolved and resolved in the union's favor.

LIMBONG: Chelsea Hensley is a literary agent at KT Literary. Agents are the people who take new books from authors and sell them to publishers. And Hensley helped organize an open letter of other literary agents supporting the union, stating they wouldn't be sending any new projects to HarperCollins beyond those already under contract until an agreement is reached. More than 200 signed.

HENSLEY: I myself have four submissions that were going out this month that Harper's not getting. If you do that math, that's hundreds of submissions that Harper's not getting that their competitors are getting.

LIMBONG: Speaking of competitors and the publishing game, there are only a handful of other big companies making up the so-called Big Five publishing houses. Of these, HarperCollins is the only one with a union. According to Blanc, the labor professor, it's a remnant of the white-collar organizing wave of the 1940s that hit a dead end with the 1947 Taft-Hartley Act, which, among other things, expelled radicals from union leadership positions.

BLANC: The white-collar union movement really didn't survive in most places. And what's anomalous is the HarperCollins union did survive and lived to see an uptick in the 1970s and then particularly in the last recent years, a more major uptick. But that hasn't yet spread to the other four of the Big Five publishing companies.

LIMBONG: But if the HarperCollins union gets the wages and protections they're asking for, it could set a higher standard for the rest of the publishing industry going forward, even if they're not unionized. It's an uphill climb, though. The striking workers have been without a paycheck for months now, but they're already planning another big rally in February.

Andrew Limbong, NPR News.
Click to expand...
Ah, sounds dire.
 
Ah! I finally figured out where the emojis are! :exploding-head::man-scientist::man-vampire::skull-and-crossbones::robot-face:

Yeah I didn't follow the strike or the Penguin/Random House trial merger thing too closely since I'm not querying yet. Both sounded pretty messy though.
 
I'm sorry if the discussion came across as arguing. Growing up in my Irish family this kind of back and forth was just dinner conversation. Now my son has an Italian partner meals are operatic.
So I'll say maybe you're not lazy. Just ready to let the book ferment for awhile.
I will argue that you are wrong when you say you can't get better. That this is the end of your skill curve. You are a creative. Making things better is kind of in the job description.
 
ChantalS said:
Ah! I finally figured out where the emojis are! :exploding-head::man-scientist::man-vampire::skull-and-crossbones::robot-face:

Yeah I didn't follow the strike or the Penguin/Random House trial merger thing too closely since I'm not querying yet. Both sounded pretty messy though.
Click to expand...
The merger didn't go through but unfortunately that doesn't mean Simon and Schuster was saved because they are just a little bump in a huge portfolio. They might be able to let employees buy themselves out which would be the best outcome possible-but no word yet.

"Soon after the judge’s decision, Paramount Global, which owns Simon & Schuster, officially pulled the plug on the deal. Paramount noted that it would explore options to sell Simon & Schuster elsewhere."
 
Pamela Jo said:
The merger didn't go through but unfortunately that doesn't mean Simon and Schuster was saved because they are just a little bump in a huge portfolio. They might be able to let employees buy themselves out which would be the best outcome possible-but no word yet.

"Soon after the judge’s decision, Paramount Global, which owns Simon & Schuster, officially pulled the plug on the deal. Paramount noted that it would explore options to sell Simon & Schuster elsewhere."
Click to expand...
Yeah I I saw that. It’s good news thought because at least it won’t be merging with the other large conglomerate in the business. The concern was creating a monopoly in the industry and having two powerhouses merging would have made that happen. That’s been stopped now.
 
Pamela Jo said:
I'm sorry if the discussion came across as arguing. Growing up in my Irish family this kind of back and forth was just dinner conversation. Now my son has an Italian partner meals are operatic.
So I'll say maybe you're not lazy. Just ready to let the book ferment for awhile.
I will argue that you are wrong when you say you can't get better. That this is the end of your skill curve. You are a creative. Making things better is kind of in the job description.
Click to expand...
Perhaps I worded that poorly (ironically)
There is always room to improve, but I'm at a point now where I dont know how to do that.
First, I wrote by myself and it was awful.
Then, I joined a critique group online and I improved a little.
Then, I joined Litopia and improved heaps; my writing is so much better than it was.
But where do I go from here?
I've tried a few other critique sites and they just don't give the level of feedback that I get here.
They are just too soft.

I've taken on everything Litopians have taught me, read several books about writing, watched online lectures (Brando Sando's are very good), and practiced, practiced, practiced...
Buy I don't seem to be getting any better.
 
Jake E said:
But where do I go from here?
I've taken on everything Litopians have taught me, read several books about writing, watched online lectures (Brando Sando's are very good), and practiced, practiced, practiced...
Buy I don't seem to be getting any better.
Click to expand...
I'm sure, 100%, that you are getting better. You will be getting better. You can't avoid getting better. It just happens to you, like it or not. You're breathing therefore you will improve. It's natural. You've practiced, you're still practicing. You are and will be improving.

Thing is, we generally don't see our own improvement/progress as it happens. Getting better is often something that others see in us. We don't tend to see it in ourselves until a few years later, when we have distance and a reference point of where we came from.

It's often during the dark, stagnant, hopeless times (like you seem to be having now) that we process most of our learning and when we take the biggest leaps forward. We emerge all the better from those times. You will too.

So, here's what you can do for now, WHAT YOU MUST DO FOR NOW (AND IF YOU DON'T, I'LL TELL YOU OFF, LOUDLY) is: ... tell the best story you can tell at this moment in time with the skills you have now. Don't sweat it. Don't fret it. Don't take this writing malarkey too seriously. Have fun with your writing. You have a great sense of humour. Enjoy having fun with words. You're good at it. Keep soaking up knowledge. Keep writing. The readers will enjoy it too if you do. Put that on your fridge.

And be realistic about the publishing buiz. It is HARD. For all of us. You're not alone in this.

Oh, and another important thing, then I shut up: being published isn't the be-all and end-all of our writing lives. Yes, it's nice, but ultimately, being published doesn't define us. Do it for the doing it. Because you love writing. Don't do it to be published.

Self publish something so you've got something out there. Makes yer feel faaaaaab, I tell yer.

In a few years you'll look back and see how you've improved from today.
 
Last edited:
What she said.

Not to call @Barbara "she" but you know... THAT. ALL OF THAT. Everything Barbara said.

Plus... just a course recommendation IF you're interested. Not that you need it. But I really enjoyed it and got a TON out of it, and it was really fun too. The teacher is phenomenal (although I see they have a different teacher this round.) Plus I made some fantastic writing friends who know how to give great critique.

Science Fiction & Fantasy Writing Classes, Level I — Online and NYC — Gotham Writers Workshop

All speculative fiction welcome—science fiction, fantasy, or horror.
wp.writingclasses.com
 
Last edited:
Barbara said:
I'm sure, 100%, that you are getting better. You will be getting better. You can't avoid getting better. It just happens to you, like it or not. You're breathing therefore you will improve. It's natural. You've practiced, you're still practicing. You are and will be improving.

Thing is, we generally don't see our own improvement/progress as it happens. Getting better is often something that others see in us. We don't tend to see it in ourselves until a few years later, when we have distance and a reference point of where we came from.

It's often during the dark, stagnant, hopeless times (like you seem to be having now) that we process most of our learning and when we take the biggest leaps forward. We emerge all the better from those times. You will too.

So, here's what you can do for now, WHAT YOU MUST DO FOR NOW (AND IF YOU DON'T, I'LL TELL YOU OFF, LOUDLY) is: ... tell the best story you can tell at this moment in time with the skills you have now. Don't sweat it. Don't fret it. Don't take this writing malarkey too seriously. Have fun with your writing. You have a great sense of humour. Enjoy having fun with words. You're good at it. Keep soaking up knowledge. Keep writing. The readers will enjoy it too if you do. Put that on your fridge.

And be realistic about the publishing buiz. It is HARD. For all of us. You're not alone in this.

Oh, and another important thing, then I shut up: being published isn't the be-all and end-all of our writing lives. Yes, it's nice, but ultimately, being published doesn't define us. Do it for the doing it. Because you love writing. Don't do it to be published.

Self publish something so you've got something out there. Makes yer feel faaaaaab, I tell yer.

In a few years you'll look back and see how you've improved from today.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Those are very kind words, and believe me, I'll do what I can to avoid having you yell at me .

I write because I enjoy it, as i think we all do.

My current WIP will never be published. That's not me being hard on myself, that's a realistic and objective look at it. The story isn't good enough, I know that. I look at the outline and character arcs and I can see that it won't be a publishable piece, but I don't care. I'm enjoying writing it.
I don't covet Sanderson or Rowling level success. I just want to be able to cut down my hours at work and maybe work three days and write two. A side hustle, if you will.

LJ Beck said:
Plus... just a course recommendation IF you're interested. Not that you need it. But I really enjoyed it and got a TON out of it, and it was really fun too. The teacher is phenomenal (although I see they have a different teacher this round.) Plus I made some fantastic writing friends who know how to give great critique.
Click to expand...

I'll definitely check this out.
 
Jake E said:
Perhaps I worded that poorly (ironically)
There is always room to improve, but I'm at a point now where I dont know how to do that.
First, I wrote by myself and it was awful.
Then, I joined a critique group online and I improved a little.
Then, I joined Litopia and improved heaps; my writing is so much better than it was.
But where do I go from here?
I've tried a few other critique sites and they just don't give the level of feedback that I get here.
They are just too soft.

I've taken on everything Litopians have taught me, read several books about writing, watched online lectures (Brando Sando's are very good), and practiced, practiced, practiced...
Buy I don't seem to be getting any better.
Click to expand...

Totally what @Barbara said. I've been on a binge with Youtube at the moment. Brain stuff. Fasting stuff. Sleep stuff. Creativity stuff etc. Maybe lean into what makes your brain unleash its creativity. Forget the rules and just tell a story the best you can. Lisa Crone is empowering:

 
Did you ever see yourself grow taller? No, but you did, tiny cm by tiny cm. Those clothes when you were twelve just don't fit anymore. (Even mine don't because I was only 4 foot 6 and four and a half stone when I was twelve.) Well, you won't see your writing improve either, but it does. It will. And the only way it'll stop improving is if you stop writing. So keep writing those stories.
 
Thanks everyone.
You are all very supportive and I appreciate it.

But, I'm giving up.
I don't think the right agent for my book even exists. The more rejections I receive and the more I research agents, the more I'm convinced of that fact.
I'll never be published. I was stupid to even think that I could be.
 
Jake E said:
I'll never be published. I was stupid to even think that I could be.
Click to expand...
OMG. How defeatist. Put this one to the side and leave it for a bit; time is up to you. Lots of well-known (published) writers do that.

Then either start something entirely new and different – and possibly entirely frivolous – or go back to one of your earlier ones and see if you can turn it around or just somehow get something out of it.

Please do NOT give up. Think of all the support and suggestions you've had from here. You might be letting us down, too, as well as yourself.
 
Jake E said:
Thanks everyone.
You are all very supportive and I appreciate it.

But, I'm giving up.
I don't think the right agent for my book even exists. The more rejections I receive and the more I research agents, the more I'm convinced of that fact.
I'll never be published. I was stupid to even think that I could be.
Click to expand...

Sooo, ... I did threaten I would. Tell you off loudly, that is. So I'm going to shout at you now:

GET BACK TO WRITING!!!!! PICK UP A PEN, RIGHT NOW, AND WRITE SOMETHING NEW!! IN ONE WEEK, I WANT TO SEE THE FIRST CHAPTER OF A NEW STORY. AND TRY A NEW GENRE FOR A FRESH START.

There you go. Shouting.
 
Jake E said:
Thanks everyone.
You are all very supportive and I appreciate it.

But, I'm giving up.
I don't think the right agent for my book even exists. The more rejections I receive and the more I research agents, the more I'm convinced of that fact.
I'll never be published. I was stupid to even think that I could be.
Click to expand...

Imagine if Terry Pratchett had given up? How many readers would have missed out? Have you tried his agent (if they're still around)? But, seriously, there comes a time in our writing life where we need to switch mindset to just writing for the love of it. Sure, we all aspire to sell our books, but don't put all your hope in the basket of publication. Write because you love it.
 
I appreciate the kicks up the a$$, but there comes a point where you have to look at the reality in front of you.
I can craft a story. I don't doubt that, but i can't craft a story people actually want, which is a little soul destroying.
My dream is to work part time and write. To make enough from writing that I can go down to three days a week instead of five so I can write more. I don't have time to do marketing or blog or build a platform or whatever... So i need an agent.
But none of them want/are able to represent me. The reasons (don't like it, don't know how to sell it or who to sell it too, feel they aren't right for it....) are irrelevant. A no is still a no, however nicely it's dressed up.

Sorry, I'm not usually this depressing. I'm just finding all these form rejections very disingenuous.
"While we enjoyed your work we didn't feel..."
Did you though? Did you enjoy it, or is that just a stock phrase you've stuffed in there to make me feel better. I suspect the latter.
"another agent may feel differently"
Will they? Because experience is showing me otherwise.
I spent ages researching agents to find the best fits for my novel. They said on their profiles, twitters, or blogs that they were looking for writing similar to mine, and they still said no.

So I'm left with the reality that my novel simply isn't good enough.
I know it's good, you guys have told me it is; but it's not good enough.

Sorry. Rant over.
Thank you all for being so god damn wonderful.
Despite the fear inspired by being yelled at my Barbara, I think I'm going to go on a writing hiatus.

J
 
Jake E said:
They said on their profiles, twitters, or blogs that they were looking for writing similar to mine, and they still said no.
Click to expand...
I know, I know, they do that. But sometimes they mean different things; they seem to be using the words/genres differently. And they do try to be vague enough that they won't miss the Next Big Thing by putting the author off.

In truth, it's a bit of a lottery. But if you don't keep buying a ticket...

Best advice I've seen – this is it boiled down – was 'get organised, research agents and publishers**, make spreadsheet (I use a big Word table!), work through it steadily, making notes.' But you know about most of that.

And what I found most helpful about that advice:
'Regard each rejection – the kind without any helpful criticism or advice (which obviously you'd follow) – as a prompt to send out a carefully targeted replacement submission/query, with something individual to that agent, to the next one on the list.'

** I don't know what source material you are using for your agents list..? There are lots, many poor & not updated.
Here are some better ones: in the US, Agent Query/Querytracker and Publishers Marketplace.
In the UK, the latest (2023) Writers and Artists Yearbook. I have the paperback, but I imagine it's online also. The content comes from the companies themselves, so it is usually up-to-date. Besides the massive listings, there are short 'how-to' articles. Do cross-reference with websites!
**Beside agents, have you tried all the small indie publishers? If you could get a deal, or even an offer, that might be the lever you need to persuade an agent.
 
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