Craft Chat 10 pieces of the worst writing advice

[RK Wallis]

Jenna doesn't sugar things. The reasons begin at 1:45:

 

[Eva Ulian]

I'm not sure I agree that a book is not finished unless you pay out loads to have it professionally edited- If you need to have a book professionally edited, I can't imagine why you are writing in the first place.

She mentions we should look at writing courses with a dose of skepticism- but surely that too applies to editing. A professional editor could very well turn your work in something they believe should be done- which may not be what you believe should be done... and to take an editor's advice against the belief in your own guts, to me sounds like undermining your own skills as a writer.

The only editor's advice you should take is that of your agent and of your publisher, which may not be the same as that of an independent editor who is looking at your work because you pay them to. Stick to Litopian's critique- here the chances of conflict of interest does not apply and you are quite free to disagree instead of feeling intimidated by a professional editor who very often leads people up the wrong path.

 

[RK Wallis]

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree on that, editors comments are not advice. They are thoughtful reactions and questions that make you see plot holes and conundrums. They do not teach or preach. Sometimes, they'll point out a cliche or something trite, and things other (unprofessional) eyes have missed. Sometimes, they'll pick up a missed word, but nothing that alters the writer's vision for the book.

I remember using the word "ejaculated" for vomiting and my editor's comment was "no...best not to use that," and the moment I read that, I saw exactly what she saw and so would every reader. Oh, gosh, I laughed and laughed. Editors pick up on things. The trick is to do your research and pick someone you trust (if self-publishing), although I didn't employ an editor to self publish, I did it to learn so I can trad publish. I bet we don't have a choice with trad publishing.

I do not think any writer is too good to skip this step. And, whilst critiques and betas are essential, they do not take the place of a professional. It's like saying anyone can do the legal work to sell a house. I've been on the other side of those transactions. It's a mess.

We are all human, we all have blind spots; best we accept that. They only help you produce a better book, and isn't that what we all want?

 

[KateESal]

Have you had bad advice from professional editors you've consulted, @Eva Ulian?

I've sent manuscripts to editors twice for appraisal and I have to say, their advice was worth every penny. I learned a huge amount. And I'm applying those lessons to my writing now...so it's been an investment in my ongoing and future writing career, as far as I'm concerned.

Critiques from Litopians is valuable, for sure. But having a professional report of several pages that details every aspect of a full manuscript can be immensely helpful, in my view and I certainly haven't regretted commissioning those.

 

[Carol Rose]

Agreed. A good editor is gold. The trick is finding one you trust and can work well with.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Have you had bad advice from professional editors you've consulted, @Eva Ulian?

No, @KateESal, I've never in my life consulted an editor BUT I've had plenty of practise of having my work edited by the lectures who marked my essays for my English degree from London University. i've never had a disagreement on that score.

Perhaps I've not explained myself well enough but I think editors are not there just to tell you what words to use. If that's what you need then a simple English teacher will correct your grammar- to me that's not editing Rachael. An editor will change your whole plot round if that's what they think works better, or tell you how to develop your characters to make them more productive in their eyes, change your pace, your style even... and so on. Now, trying to rework a story that is no longer yours is to me a some sort of creative suicide if you don't find empathy with what they say.

Then if you submit the work an editor has "remodelled", that's not being transparent with your prospective agent, because they would think this is your work and your work alone, and as far as I'm concerned, it isn't. Then an agent may very well reject the work simply because it doesn't work for them, BUT it may have worked in your original version.

Like I said, the only editor I would let tamper with my work is the agent or publisher's editor, because at the end of the day, it is what they want that you have to come up with, not what any editor wants, no matter how professional they are- it's mighty hard to find two who will give you the same suggestions, and then won't that leave you utterly confused to say the least. Trust your own guts, for me that works much better. It's just what I think and am not ashamed of it, so there's no need for me to apologise for disagreeing, is there.

 

[Jackson Banks]

I think the word 'editor' gets used and many people think it covers what they think it means not what it might mean. Confusing huh? lol . There are developmental editors, copy and so forth. Like Carol said finding a good one is hard and I agree with Kate that they are immensely helpful. I've reached out to one recently and the feedback was priceless. Things were pointed out that has enriched the setting that the people in my writing group did not catch.

Whether the advice comes from fellow Litopians or a professional, you can of course ultimately decide what you want to do. I do kindly disagree with the idea of changing your work from suggestions by an editor (or fellow Liptopian!) is somehow not being transparent with an agent. They are still not writing your book, its still your own words. And there are some editors with connections that can say to said agent, 'this is good to go, take a look at it.'

I do find it odd how some of these 'editors' on different forums advertise services that are usually over 1k sterling/Dollars for the low price of 100. You get what you pay for.

 

[Carol Rose]

There's zero regulation on editing. Anyone can call themselves an "editor" and therein lies the issue with quality and pricing.

I wrote a Writing Wiki post on this a while ago. You may find it helpful.

 

[georginaK]

A big value to using an editor is that less subjective POV. We all get so close to our work that we can tend to become blind to its flaws.

 

[Eva Ulian]

And there are some editors with connections that can say to said agent, 'this is good to go, take a look at it.'

They "say" they have that power, but I hardly think they do, otherwise those who use such editors would be published- but they are not.

 

[KateESal]

The editors I commissioned were both professional editors working in the publishing industry and both were affiliated with literary organisations with a reputation and brand name to protect, so I had a faith that those editors knew what they were talking about, and my faith wasn't misplaced.

Yes, I did overhaul my MS as a direct result of both consultations, but I wanted advice on how to make my MS more attractive to the industry and that's what I got. Ultimately, they didn't tell me what to write, those decisions were my own. And actually, I got more excited about my original story because I felt I had improved the way I was telling it, thanks to their suggestions. I had a steep learning curve when it came to the craft of writing (and I'm still learning...well, we never really stop learning, do we?) and that's what I needed to apply fo the MS. I think a decent editor - and both of these were decent editors - will encourage the author to enhance the good parts of the story, rather than making it into something that's somehow less authentic. And publishing professionals should know enough about the market to suggest changes that will make the MS more suitable for publication...ie more saleable... irrespective of who the final publisher turns out to be. I don't regard that as "tampering" because I know I've still got a lot to learn and coming from a sub-editing background myself (in journalism), I'm used to my work going under the knife in the name of publication!!

Interesting discussion, though.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Interesting discussion, though.

Yes, it is an interesting discussion which brings out, in our needs as writers, we differ widely.

 

[KateESal]

They "say" they have that power, but I hardly think they do, otherwise those who use such editors would be published- but they are not.

It's not uncommon for literary editors to work in other areas of the publishing industry (one of mine was also an agent, as it happens) and with their own writing background, they may well have personal connections with others in the industry. (I imagine @AgentPete can confirm or negate this assertion!) But the only power they have is the contact...at the end of the day, the agent or publisher concerned will make their own decision, irrespective of the editor's opinion of the book. On the other hand, having a respected editor in your corner can't be a bad thing when you're trying to flog your novel!

 

[Eva Ulian]

On the other hand, having a respected editor in your corner can't be a bad thing when you're trying to flog your novel!

Very true, but if you can do it on your own- even better.

I wonder if Jane Austen had an editor before she shopped her 1st novel "Sense and Sensibility" around. I know she must have had one for the second "Pride and Prejudice" because it was far more commercial. What do you think?

 

[Jackson Banks]

They "say" they have that power, but I hardly think they do, otherwise those who use such editors would be published- but they are not.

I'm sorry but this is simpy not true. There are loads of examples of this happening.

 

[Eva Ulian]

I'm sorry but this is simpy not true. There are loads of examples of this happening.

Sorry, I'm not convinced. If it were so, I would use such editors myself, and wouldn't you?

 

[Jackson Banks]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. If it were so, I would use such editors myself, and wouldn't you?

This is not about convincing anyone just stating facts within the industry.The truth is truth whether we like them or not ,or want to belive them.

If I were to have editing work done, then yes I would hope to find an editor that as well with other criteria, could possibly pass it on to an appropriate agent bypassing the slush pile.

 

[Carol Rose]

I wonder if Jane Austen had an editor before she shopped her 1st novel "Sense and Sensibility" around. I know she must have had one for the second "Pride and Prejudice" because it was far more commercial. What do you think?

It’s only conjecture:

Jane Austen's Well-Known Style Owed Much to Her Editor, Scholar Argues

Attack on Jane Austen's genius shows neither sense nor sensibility

 

[RK Wallis]

I think you misunderstood me too @Eva Ulian when I mentioned a word change, that was just an example of the humourous tone of my editor, but my experience has been exactly the same as @KateESal. And I will probably save for an editor a few more times until I'm ready to query. I don't expect a quick ride to publication - at least a few more years; typing with one hand (finger) has it's challenges (as @Rachel Caldecott-Thornton can testify!).

We are not the next Jane Austen (sadly, we need another!), so a good editor is invaluable to us. Nor is this the 17th Century, it's the 21st. Providing anything less these days is, as Jenna says, only giving readers "the milk and eggs" not the "bread". And what person pays for a half baked product? Of course, that's if you're self-publishing (otherwise, you can't expect big sales - but that raises another touchy debate; I'll not go there). And more and more people wanting to take the traditional route, first engage an editor. You don't have to by any means, a publishing house will provide an editor, but that trend makes it harder and harder to stand out from the slush pile. I just want that boost, as do many others.

To me, I'm just keeping up with industry changes. But that's my opinion and I'm not trying to alter yours. I respect your decision and wish you the best of luck

 

[Nikky Lee]

There's zero regulation on editing. Anyone can call themselves an "editor" and therein lies the issue with quality and pricing.

I wrote a Writing Wiki post on this a while ago. You may find it helpful.

If you're in Australia or using an Australian editor you can ask if they are IPED accredited. It's an editing accreditation (quite difficult to get, you have to sit a difficult exam every few years to keep it). Though I'd never use it to replace my own research into an editor, it is an extra quality assurance.

 

[Carol Rose]

If you're in Australia or using an Australian editor you can ask if they are IPED accredited. It's an editing accreditation (quite difficult to get, you have to sit a difficult exam every few years to keep it). Though I'd never use it to replace my own research into an editor, it is an extra quality assurance.

Thanks, @Nmlee! I'll add that info to the post.

 

[KateESal]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. If it were so, I would use such editors myself, and wouldn't you?

Yes, of course I would - and I do!

I think editors are not there just to tell you what words to use. If that's what you need then a simple English teacher will correct your grammar- to me that's not editing Rachael. An editor will change your whole plot round if that's what they think works better, or tell you how to develop your characters to make them more productive in their eyes, change your pace, your style even... and so on. Now, trying to rework a story that is no longer yours is to me a some sort of creative suicide if you don't find empathy with what they say.

The point is, literary editors don't actually change ANYTHING about your manuscript. They suggest possible changes you, the author could make to make it more commercially viable. You don't have to follow their advice if you don't agree with it. At no point does the story stop being yours.

If an author has sufficient knowledge of their craft and the clout to be able to stand out from the crowd when making a submission without consulting a literary editor, then fair enough. But if, like me, you're still learning and you can afford the luxury of some bespoke professional advice from an accredited expert, then I think it's money well spent.

 

[Robert M Derry]

When it comes to professional editing, as it is expensive, it's more a question of when to send your work to an editor.

I think you need to do a couple of rounds of edits first to cut out most of the obvious mistakes, maybe get a couple of beta readers and then go for pro editing once you can't see what the flaws in the text are.

I also think publishers expect your work to be more polished by the time it gets to them as they don't have the resources to properly edit new work any more. In effect this professional editing phase is just the writer paying for what editing the publisher would have done way back when.

 

[KateESal]

I also think publishers expect your work to be more polished by the time it gets to them as they don't have the resources to properly edit new work any more. In effect this professional editing phase is just the writer paying for what editing the publisher would have done way back when.

That's a good point. Everything seems to be going that way.

I mean, a band or songwriter used to be able to send a rough cassette demo to a record company if they wanted their music to be considered for professional release. Nowadays, nothing less than a studio-quality, properly mastered recording will be considered (and even then, most are ignored...sound familiar?) In the creative industries, we're all competing for slices of a shrinking cake - at least, in its traditional format - so more of the production effort and expense is being shifted to the originating author/composer/songwriter/artist etc.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Yes, of course I would - and I do!

In that case Kate, I wonder why you are not published because according to Jackson Banks he says quote "And there are some editors with connections that can say to said agent, 'this is good to go, take a look at it.' implying with view to publishing- he is saying these editors are kind of half promising they will put in a good word for you in order to be published. And frankly I do not believe this is true, otherwise we would all use an editor who has such magic powers to get an agent who will find a publisher to publish us.

In fact if you or anybody knows an editor who can do this, please, please, send him/her my way, because I could do with someone just like that; someone who will get someone who is in a position to have my work published to take a look at it.

When I said to Jackson, Sorry, I'm not convinced. If it were so, I would use such editors myself, and wouldn't you? I was referring to those editors Jackson was talking about and which I have yet never known or met or have the foggiest where I can find them.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Yes, of course I would - and I do!



The point is, literary editors don't actually change ANYTHING about your manuscript. They suggest possible changes you, the author could make to make it more commercially viable. You don't have to follow their advice if you don't agree with it. At no point does the story stop being yours.

If an author has sufficient knowledge of their craft and the clout to be able to stand out from the crowd when making a submission without consulting a literary editor, then fair enough. But if, like me, you're still learning and you can afford the luxury of some bespoke professional advice from an accredited expert, then I think it's money well spent.

Perhaps you have misunderstood me Kate, but never, ever do I say editors change ANYTHING. They have no power to do so, unless you go along with them.

 

[Eva Ulian]

I think you misunderstood me too @Eva Ulian when I mentioned a word change, that was just an example of the humourous tone of my editor, but my experience has been exactly the same as @KateESal. And I will probably save for an editor a few more times until I'm ready to query. I don't expect a quick ride to publication - at least a few more years; typing with one hand (finger) has it's challenges (as @Rachel Caldecott-Thornton can testify!).

We are not the next Jane Austen (sadly, we need another!), so a good editor is invaluable to us. Nor is this the 17th Century, it's the 21st. Providing anything less these days is, as Jenna says, only giving readers "the milk and eggs" not the "bread". And what person pays for a half baked product? Of course, that's if you're self-publishing (otherwise, you can't expect big sales - but that raises another touchy debate; I'll not go there). And more and more people wanting to take the traditional route, first engage an editor. You don't have to by any means, a publishing house will provide an editor, but that trend makes it harder and harder to stand out from the slush pile. I just want that boost, as do many others.

To me, I'm just keeping up with industry changes. But that's my opinion and I'm not trying to alter yours. I respect your decision and wish you the best of luck

Well, I have another view to all this Rachel. I believe if a writer badly needs an editor, first they must be lacking in self confidence, and if they can get to believe in themselves, half the anguish is over, because frankly I don't think the answer can be found in editors making something presentable. Yes, editors do have a vital part in making your work publishable but AFTER your work is accepted, not BEFORE.

I think, and obviously I'm like a voice in the wilderness on this, that getting someone to "fix" your work is like a teacher giving out homework, instinctively she knows when a child has had help and when she asks the child, "did mummy help you with this?" The child will shyly admit it is so. Agents are the same, they know when "mummy" has helped an author, and it's not what THEY WANT.

If this were not so, then all those who have had their work professionally edited before submission should be in the majority to get published; yet if you ask writers, agents, you will find it is the other way round. And to me, if I were an agent, I can see why that would make sense.

 

[Eva Ulian]

I also think publishers expect your work to be more polished by the time it gets to them as they don't have the resources to properly edit new work any more. In effect this professional editing phase is just the writer paying for what editing the publisher would have done way back when.

I beg to differ. Look at what published writers say: most agents WANT to be the ones to make the changes... And most publishers want their OWN Editor to do that... for obvious reasons.

 

[Jackson Banks]

When I said to Jackson, Sorry, I'm not convinced. If it were so, I would use such editors myself, and wouldn't you? I was referring to those editors Jackson was talking about and which I have yet never known or met or have the foggiest where I can find them.

You are luckier than me , I have yet to personally meet a single editor, I need to get out more.

Concerning finding some of these editors with "magic powers" that I assure you are real but which you keep insiting are not , you can use Google and type in 'manuscript assessment service'. The first one that popped for me was this company Manuscript Assessment - The Literary Consultancy
And here is a list of authors they have worked with who went on to be traditionally published. Please note there are dozens upon dozens of testimonials so it may take time to peruse. Lots of them thank the editors for helping them see flaws in their book as well as connecting them with agents.

Success Stories - The Literary Consultancy

Success Stories from The Literary Consultancy. TLC is very proud of the talented writers it has helped over the years. TLC did not set up as a talent scouting

literaryconsultancy.co.uk

This was the second one to pop for me. Home | Cornerstones Literary Consultancy
Apparently they have relationships with numerous agencies and display many of the great titles they have helped the author with that went on to be published.

That's just two companies.

 

[Eva Ulian]

ou are luckier than me , I have yet to personally meet a single editor, I need to get out more.

AH ha Jackson, please note with regards to those editors I said "I have yet NEVER known, or met or have the foggiest where to find them."