Craft Chat 10 pieces of the worst writing advice

[Eva Ulian]

You are luckier than me , I have yet to personally meet a single editor, I need to get out more.

Concerning finding some of these editors with "magic powers" that I assure you are real but which you keep insiting are not , you can use Google and type in 'manuscript assessment service'. The first one that popped for me was this company Manuscript Assessment - The Literary Consultancy
And here is a list of authors they have worked with who went on to be traditionally published. Please note there are dozens upon dozens of testimonials so it may take time to peruse. Lots of them thank the editors for helping them see flaws in their book as well as connecting them with agents.

Success Stories - The Literary Consultancy

Success Stories from The Literary Consultancy. TLC is very proud of the talented writers it has helped over the years. TLC did not set up as a talent scouting

literaryconsultancy.co.uk

This was the second one to pop for me. Home | Cornerstones Literary Consultancy
Apparently they have relationships with numerous agencies and display many of the great titles they have helped the author with that went on to be published.

That's just two companies.

Oh my goodness, I would NEVER touch a Literary Consultancy service... for obvious reasons.

Good luck to you anyway. At this point we should have the pleasure of seeing you in print, should we not?

 

[Jackson Banks]

Oh my goodness, I would NEVER touch a Literary Consultancy service... for obvious reasons.

Good luck to you anyway. At this point we should have the pleasure of seeing you in print, should we not?

You know, you have basically called me a liar repeatedly. I have answered in kindness and even provided links after you kept insisting that I was not telling the truth. And now when I show examples this is your response?

 

[Eva Ulian]

You know, you have basically called me a liar repeatedly. I have answered in kindness and even provided links after you kept insisting that I was not telling the truth. And now when I show examples this is your response?

No, Jackson, I never said that. I just said I am not convinced, and still, I am not- but that's just my opinion, and you are entitled to yours. Amen!

 

[KateESal]

I think, and obviously I'm like a voice in the wilderness on this, that getting someone to "fix" your work is like a teacher giving out homework, instinctively she knows when a child has had help and when she asks the child, "did mummy help you with this?" The child will shyly admit it is so. Agents are the same, they know when "mummy" has helped an author, and it's not what THEY WANT.

Surely an agent wants a book which will make them some money, ie is saleable?
I can't imagine that advice from a professional editor, whether it's detectable or not within the submission, would put off an agent if the agent thinks they can do good business with the book (and therefore the author)?
The homework analogy doesn't really work if you consider that the publishing industry prefers to work collaboratively throughout the process of developing a manuscript and finalising it for publication...it's not like authors are studying for a progress assessment.

And wouldn't an agent be happy to work with an author who has already proved they take their craft sufficiently seriously to have invested in developing it and furthermore, has shown they are willing to listen to and follow well-meant, professional advice?

@AgentPete, what's your personal view on receiving manuscripts which have been appraised by a literary editor prior to submission? Would that factor influence your decision to take a client on? Seems silly to second-guess what a literary agent may or may not prefer, when we could just ask one!

all those who have had their work professionally edited before submission should be in the majority to get published; yet if you ask writers, agents, you will find it is the other way round.

I'm genuinely interested to know if you can find any figures to back up this assertion. After all, the plural of anecdote isn't data.

I mean, it's one thing to disagree on the merits of having a MS professionally appraised, but quite another to imply the very act of doing so seems to make someone's work somehow less attractive to the publishing industry. If there's hard evidence that I'm wasting my money when it comes to the journey towards publication, then I want to know about it!

 

[Eva Ulian]

Surely an agent wants a book which will make them some money, ie is saleable?
I can't imagine that advice from a professional editor, whether it's detectable or not within the submission, would put off an agent if they think the agent thinks they can do good business with the book (and therefore the author)?
The homework analogy doesn't really work if you consider that the publishing industry prefers to work collaboratively throughout the process of developing a manuscript and finalising it for publication...it's not like authors are studying for a progress assessment.

And wouldn't an agent be happy to work with an author who has already proved they take their craft sufficiently seriously to have invested in developing it and furthermore, has shown they are willing to listen to and follow well-meant, professional advice?

@AgentPete, what's your personal view on receiving manuscripts which have been appraised by a literary editor prior to submission? Would that factor influence your decision to take a client on? Seems silly to second-guess what a literary agent may or may not prefer, when we could just ask one!


I'm genuinely interested to know if you can find any figures to back up this assertion. After all, the plural of anecdote isn't data.

I mean, it's one thing to disagree on the merits of having a MS professionally appraised, but quite another to imply the very act of doing so seems to make someone's work somehow less attractive to the publishing industry. If there's hard evidence that I'm wasting my money when it comes to the journey towards publication, then I want to know about it!

I have read a lot of writers' websites and interviews in my lifetime where I found this information. I have no idea where those links are now. But you don't have to believe me, ask around on Twitter- you may find the answers you are looking for. Apart from that it is up to you to do what you think best. I believe one should invest in one's capabilities not in someone else's. You can teach yourself through the massive amount of info on the net what others are paid to do. Believe in yourself more, be yourself and throw away those crutches.

 

[KateESal]

Incidentally, TLC was one of the Literacy Consultancies I used when seeking an appraisal of my MS. The advice and pointers I received from the editor they linked me with was excellent: a huge help for my subsequent redraft.

 

[KateESal]

I believe one should invest in one's capabilities

Oh, I do agree with you there.
So I've invested in mine by appointing a professional editor to carry out an appraisal of my manuscript with the aim of learning from their greater experience about how I can improve my capabilities as a commercial novelist.

Believe in yourself more, be yourself and throw away those crutches.

It's because I believe in myself that I'm prepared to invest in my own capabilities by paying for professional advice on how I can best do that. I'm putting my money where my mouth is!

Self-belief is great, but it can only get you so far if you're not willing to learn. And availing yourself of a professional editing service is no more of a "crutch" than sifting through the "massive amount of info on the net". The difference is the info on the net is not specific to my manuscript, whereas the editor I am paying is appraising my work specifically, and that can be a lot more helpful than a welter of general tips-on-being-a-better-writer.

Paying for someone to appraise your MS doesn't mean you think it's inadequate. It means you think it can be improved.
I always knew I had some great ideas in my children's books and at first, I thought the fact I had written those ideas on actual paper was enough for an agent to consider them for publication. A common first-time author mistake. Research soon showed me I needed to look more carefully at the execution of those ideas, and that's where the advice/personal tutoring I've paid for has been invaluable. Becoming an author, like everything else, is a learning experience and there are numerous useful ways in which we can learn, including investing in professional advice.

How about another analogy?
I play the guitar and am largely self-taught. However, on the occasions when I invested in some lessons from a decent teacher, I learned techniques I had previously been unaware of and progressed much more quickly as a result. When I subsequently gave a demo tape of my music to a gig promotor, they didn't care whether or not I'd had guitar lessons: what they cared about was whether or not my music had to the potential to pull in an audience and they booked me on that basis.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Well, at least you've made up your own mind. I wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

 

[Eva Ulian]

It’s only conjecture:

Jane Austen's Well-Known Style Owed Much to Her Editor, Scholar Argues

Attack on Jane Austen's genius shows neither sense nor sensibility

I noted this by Ms Todd from the above article:

"I would query the notion that Persuasion, however wonderful in many respects, is a high spot of Jane Austen's style," she said. "In many respects it lacks the finish of Pride and Prejudice."

 

[RK Wallis]

Just as an aside, I should clarify, I employed my editor in order to learn and so I experience the process of editing (mine was a developmental edit). I want to finish a book, and IMHO, a book isn't finished until it's been through critiquing, betas and editors. That was my practice book. And I chose it on a path to preparing to submit to agents. One day.

I didn't then, and still don't, intend to seriously seek representation for that book. Though I will query it, just so I can experience rejection! But, in consulting an editor, I have focused upon my process which I found lacking (but like any writer, I hadn't thought the book lacking until an editor read it - and it wasn't the writing lacking, it was the structure). In order to compensate for what was lacking, I needed to find a way to manage the complexity of a book without physically writing: eg post-it notes and corkboards etc. As they are impossible for me.

I found I need a spreadsheet (I love excel!) to chart character arcs and subplots (I can only type).

I'd be ignorant of my blindspots if I hadn't experienced an editor. If she hadn't shown me weaknesses and strengths (so I know what to do more of), I'd be a lesser writer for it. The experience was invaluable to me (an investment toward improving), and will only help me as I move forward.

I have a need to invest in my writing, I don't want to JUST rely on creativity; that's a fickle beast. I'm hedging my bets.

 

[KateESal]

I need a spreadsheet (I love excel!) to chart character arcs and subplots

Ooh, I'm interested in this! (I also have a geeky love of a good spreadsheet )

Right, I'm going to start a new thread comparing how people keep track of their book info and ask you for more details about your method therein, @RK Capps ...

 

[Eva Ulian]

Just as an aside, I should clarify, I employed my editor in order to learn and so I experience the process of editing (mine was a developmental edit). I want to finish a book, and IMHO, a book isn't finished until it's been through critiquing, betas and editors. That was my practice book. And I chose it on a path to preparing to submit to agents. One day.

I didn't then, and still don't, intend to seriously seek representation for that book. Though I will query it, just so I can experience rejection! But, in consulting an editor, I have focused upon my process which I found lacking (but like any writer, I hadn't thought the book lacking until an editor read it - and it wasn't the writing lacking, it was the structure). In order to compensate for what was lacking, I needed to find a way to manage the complexity of a book without physically writing: eg post-it notes and corkboards etc. As they are impossible for me.

I found I need a spreadsheet (I love excel!) to chart character arcs and subplots (I can only type).

I'd be ignorant of my blindspots if I hadn't experienced an editor. If she hadn't shown me weaknesses and strengths (so I know what to do more of), I'd be a lesser writer for it. The experience was invaluable to me (an investment toward improving), and will only help me as I move forward.

I have a need to invest in my writing, I don't want to JUST rely on creativity; that's a fickle beast. I'm hedging my bets.

I'm glad your experience was the one you were looking for Rachael. I wish you the best and hope to see your book... the one you sent to Pop-Up submission in print one day. I found it fascinating to see what went into the mind and not only, of someone going through such a traumatic experience as having a stroke.

 

[RK Wallis]

Thanks @Eva Ulian

Actually, the one I sent to Pop Ups is self-published. I just wanted to hear some of my problems.

Originally, it was accepted by a top 10 Australian agent, but after a year of shopping it around, my agent recommended I self publish. Editors liked it, but financial teams didn't. It's too niche a market and they want to make money (understandably). Both @Rachel Caldecott-Thornton and @Jiannina Camillo have read and reviewed it on Amazon. Amazon.com for Rachel and Italian Amazon for Jiannina.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Thanks @Eva Ulian

Actually, the one I sent to Pop Ups is self-published. I just wanted to hear some of my problems.

Originally, it was accepted by a top 10 Australian agent, but after a year of shopping it around, my agent recommended I self publish. Editors liked it, but financial teams didn't. It's too niche a market and they want to make money (understandably). Both @Rachel Caldecott-Thornton and @Jiannina Camillo have read and reviewed it on Amazon. Amazon.com for Rachel and Italian Amazon for Jiannina.

I'm afraid Amazon won't allow me to review anything because I am not a customer, and not having had a credit card, I have never bought anything. So that's where it's at with Amazon

 

[RK Wallis]

Oh, I wasn't asking for a review, sorry. I'm not out to push sales! Not at all. I'm just saying that's where you can read their reviews

 

[RK Wallis]

This is a traditionally published author with the same opinion as @Eva Ulian and it's a valid explanation why you shouldn't hire an editor BEFORE querying if you trad publish:

 

[Eva Ulian]

Ah yes, it's perfectly true what she says- but she says it better than I do. Thank you for fishing this out Rachael- As she says the problem with getting your ms "fixed" before querying is that the Agent wants to know at what stage YOU are at- not your editor- and I've heard that if you do get it edited before, it DOES go against you. But in your case, I think you need an editor until you are able to walk on your own... but then do so and throw away those crutches!

 

[RK Wallis]

She does explain it well doesn't she @Eva Ulian? It's like you need to be confident in your own writing in order for an agent to know they can rely on you for a career. As she says near the end, if you self publish you need an editor, but it could go against you (as in, you could be 'biting your nose off to spite your face') if you trad publish and you could flounder as you go forward in your career.

Ah, @Eva Ulian, I'm having the same problem with articulating exactly what I mean, lol! But I get it now

Basically, just write, query, and move on until you write a book that's accepted.

This is that author's agent journey: