Your thoughts, please

[E G Logan]

I need a location. I'm going to do a Michelle Paver and actually go and stay there for a bit, getting the geography by heart and soaking up the atmosphere.

In Italy – that's a given. It needs to be a feasible setting for a high-profile firm of architects. So, a business city in the north, but accessible to Parma, for plot reasons. With a well-regarded university.

Rome is too far south (but still an outside chance). Genoa rules itself out because I don't want readers to immediately think 'Renzo Piano', as this is going to be a mildly toxic workplace. Turin may be a bit too small and too far (still possible).

The cute historic university/artistic cities (Florence, Siena, Lucca, etc) are too small. Venice, just no.

The choice looks like between MILAN and BOLOGNA.

It doesn't matter if you've never been to either. Never seen a picture. That might even help. What I need to know is which better conjures up the idea in your mind of a cut-throat competitive, corporate, whizzy, can-do business location

 

[E G Logan]

That should have had a full stop. And a 'thank you for your help'!

 

[Eva Ulian]

which better conjures up the idea in your mind of a cut-throat competitive, corporate, whizzy, can-do business location

Naples would just be ideal, with all the baby-gangs, blatant breaking of civic rules and codes, rubbish in the streets... But BOLOGNA would be your next best bet. A few decades ago, it was a real bourgeois, elegant city- now it has become something akin to what you are looking for- Glorious, antique arches soiled by drunks who spew up and drug addicts who leave their excrement; illegal immigrants loitering about homeless, bone thin dogs and cats on the loose, mice, rats, rubbish, thieves... All harboured by those once majestic walls, banks, trade shops, art galleries, exhibition halls... oh yes, they are all still there but it won't take long before even that civilization evaporates.

 

[Emily]

Not a clue. But the picture @Eva Ulian painted above sounds quite perfect.
And just to mention: should you need someone to go and live it and give you detailed experience to add to your research.... well, all I can say is, for you, I would do that.
I draw crazy to me like a magnet and could do a expansive tour of all eateries. I have no Italian, but that will just add an extra frisson of excitement, as I get by very well with hand gestures and sign language

 

[Leonora]

I would have said Milan until I read the above. To me, Milan means big, modern city.

 

[Eva Ulian]

To me, Milan means big, modern city.

That is true, but it is relatively more honest than Bologna. It is easier to do things under the counter in Bologna than in Milan as there is more civic discipline and control in Milan- It is the centre of finance like the Square Mile in London. There may be high finance corruption in Milan but it's not squalid as in Bologna; because in Bologna there is less civic pride and control and you get the strong feeling that you could easily get away with murder. The ground is fertile for frauds, cheats and tricksters to act with ease and undisturbed. Not so in Milan.

Here's a picture of me and my boss in Milan on TDY for the US Army. It looks quite a "respectable" city and it hasn't changed much since then. Sorry, I haven't anything on Bologna although I've been there a few times.

 

[Dan Payne]

It depends on your audience. If you're writing for Italians and travelled Europeans, Bologna sounds like the right choice. If you're writing for Americans, Antipodeans and others who don't know the area, "Milan" is more recognisable than "Bologna". To me, it carried the right sound. Bologna, on the other hand, I know absolutely nothing about, so my brain connected Bologna>bolognese/cheeses>rustic pasta sauce>rural. Personally I'd go with the more recognisable name. How you describe it is up to you as the author!

I understand that Dan Simmons' first novel, Song of Kali, was praised for its authenticity and location atmosphere. He spent less than two days in India before writing it.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Bologna suggests business, grit and edginess to me, but also with another, more suave face.

 

[Eva Ulian]

"Milan" is more recognisable than "Bologna"

This is very true. Also, people in Milan act more reserved, more like Northern Europeans. But due to the strong migration, mainly to the US, also other countries too, of people who came from the deep south, Naples and Sicily, people outside Italy identify all Italians as the southerners who migrated to their country.

Hence, most people in the world have a preconceived idea that all Italians (men wise and women over 40) are short, fat and dark; that they talk with their hands, i.e. heavily gesticulate and cry out "Mamma Mia!" all over the place; that there is a lot of shouting and bawling going on, for no reason at all- basically there is this idea of Italy being hot-blooded, unrestrained and completely chaotic... the more romantic among them, term it as being "gregarious."

A foreigner, especially of Anglo-Saxon origin, coming to the extreme north of Italy would get a terrible shock to find the Milanese, somewhat subdued and almost as unresponsive, and expressionless as they are.

But that is not the case for Bologna. And the further south you go the more expressive you find the people to be.

 

[E G Logan]

Not a clue. But the picture @Eva Ulian painted above sounds quite perfect.
And just to mention: should you need someone to go and live it and give you detailed experience to add to your research.... well, all I can say is, for you, I would do that.
I draw crazy to me like a magnet and could do a expansive tour of all eateries. I have no Italian, but that will just add an extra frisson of excitement, as I get by very well with hand gestures and sign language

OK, you're on. You can come with me. I was thinking of three weeks...

 

[E G Logan]

Naples would just be ideal, with all the baby-gangs, blatant breaking of civic rules and codes, rubbish in the streets...

Too far south. Has to be in the north for plot reasons. But thank you.

 

[Steve C]

Sounds like a mini Litfest is in the air Let there be cake! (& Pizza)

 

[Barbara]

Perugia? Or is that too small and too quaint?

 

[KateESal]

a cut-throat competitive, corporate, whizzy, can-do business location

Having visited Bologna, I can't think of it that way. Whereas Milan, with its fashion-business association. conjures up the idea you suggest more firmly in my mind.

I suspect "outsiders" would likely associate the kind of scene you describe more readily with Milan, even if it's not accurate to those who know the two places more initmately.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Milan, with its fashion-business association. conjures up the idea you suggest more firmly

True, Milan has fashion-business association, but it's prestigious, not cut-throat as @E G Logan requires it to be. Besides, it's hard to find a pizzeria from the Verona to Torino area which includes Milan in the middle... and where would your charlatans go to eat and seal their "offers you can't refuse" deals if not in a pizzeria?

 

[Eva Ulian]

Perugia? Or is that too small and too quaint?

Also too sweet, the association to chocolate is way too strong. Padova is also getting a bit like Bologna. However, together with Vicenza, Verona, Milan and Turin, Padova as opposed to Bologna is too similar in outlook, mentality, to other cities in the North of Europe. Bologna on the other hand is more explosive in character.

BTW this picture was taken at an art gallery/Restaurant in Bologna during a painting prize-giving. As you can see the atmosphere is kind of closed in and the men are vigorous or seedy.

 

[E G Logan]

Perugia? Or is that too small and too quaint?

Sorry, yes.

 

[E G Logan]

BTW this picture was taken at an art gallery/Restaurant in Bologna during a painting prize-giving. As you can see the atmosphere is kind of closed in and the men are vigorous or seedy.
View attachment 4866

Is this a RECENT photo? surely not.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Is this a RECENT photo? surely not.

No, neither is the one on Milan- about 40 years ago, when I was young, pretty and available??? However, in Bologna things have got worse in 40 years not better.

 

[E G Logan]

Ah, that's also you in the Bologna pic! Like the dress.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Ah, that's also you in the Bologna pic! Like the dress.

And I still have it, but it doesn't fit as well... I've also dyed it a pastel green because the white is an awkward colour to wear around the place.

 

[E G Logan]

LAST CALL!
Any more final comments welcome.

 

[Rich.]

I need a location. [...] In Italy – that's a given. It needs to be a feasible setting for a high-profile firm of architects. [...] The choice looks like between MILAN and BOLOGNA.

I'd go for Milan. It conjures images of style and fashion, which sits well with the notion of architects.

 

[RK Wallis]

I'd say Milan too, simply because I've never heard of the other. Depends on the audience you want to reach, but if I were browsing a bookstore, Milan would jump out as a setting I would want to read about.

 

[E G Logan]

Thanks to everyone for your contribution. That sort of backs up my thinking. Milan, it is.

I started off this discussion hoping that it'd push me to spend time in Milan and perhaps alter my view of the city as ugly, ferociously expensive and boring.
At least one of those could change...

At the same time I love historic Bologna, so part of me would have been very pleased to spend time there. But it's not my likes or dislikes that are important here.

So this way for The 500 Hidden Secrets of Milan..! A guide book. Looks interesting.

[I also have 101 Things To do in Bologna at Least Once in Your Life. There's still time.]