• Café Life is the Colony's main hangout, watering hole and meeting point.

    This is a place where you'll meet and make writing friends, and indulge in stratospherically-elevated wit or barometrically low humour.

    Some Colonists pop in religiously every day before or after work. Others we see here less regularly, but all are equally welcome. Two important grounds rules…

    • Don't give offence
    • Don't take offence

    We now allow political discussion, but strongly suggest it takes place in the Steam Room, which is a private sub-forum within Café Life. It’s only accessible to Full Members.

    You can dismiss this notice by clicking the "x" box

What was your most valuable lesson?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jason Byrne said:
When I was a child I had an older boy threaten to tell my parents on me, if I didn't give him the keys to my house. Neither of these make any sense. Some people are just plain old everyday crazy.

By the by, he actually did call my house and leave a message telling on me, for not giving him my house keys. Crazy.
Click to expand...

What? Yep sounds like the sort of nonsensical demand i was experiencing.
 
Lex Black said:
Wow. All right, let me start off by apologizing to everyone for semi-hijacking the thread. That was never my intent. Really, I'm surprised anyone even took so much notice of my one story out of so many here.


Also let me include the preface that I do genuinely appreciate the goodwill of everyone here. I wasn't looking for sympathy or a pity party, I was just telling my own story (again, out of many here) and you are all very kind to be supportive.


That having been said, some responses:


The two people in question, particularly the man who laughed at me, are genuinely arrogant and unpleasant people. I spoke to them for all of 15 minutes, and have no desire to encounter them in any format again as long as I live.


Sidebar: the laughter was more annoying than anything. As I've said many times, I hate my work and I think little of it, so I was not as wounded by this as it might seem.


Mr. Positive Critique, though, immediately after laughing, proceeded in insist I should “keep writing” because I “had some talent”. When I replied that, no, I did not in fact have any talent, he responded with words to the effect of “Well, this one writer in this one essay says there's no such thing as “talent”, there's just being willing to do what you're told.”


In case it's not coming across, it quickly became clear that this guy was more interested in assuaging his own ego by arguing with me than providing any feedback. For my part, I just wanted the opinions of these two, one an established writer, the other a writer/editor, for where I went so wrong with something I had put so much effort into. A literary autopsy, if you will.


At any rate, jackass behavior or not, I still got responses from genuine professionals in the industry. I have been writing for over thirty years and have never published anything.


Actually, that's not true. I have exactly one professional credit. Wanna see it?


http://www.cracked.com/article_19386_5-classic-movies-that-almost-had-terrible-endings.html


That's my name there. Which confuses me, as after that pitch was accepted by the site (which genuinely surprised me, as it was the only one they ever took out of...I lost track of how many suggested), they rewrote it so as to be unrecognizable. There are exactly two sentences in that finished article I actually wrote.


I don't begrudge them that; it's in their TOS they may do things like that. The point is that, in 30+ years of writing, in almost 20 of attempting to do so professionally, my actual credit is literally TWO SENTENCES.


Again, I appreciate the goodwill here, and the intent behind telling me to keep writing if I enjoy it. The problem is, that enjoyment has long since ceased. All writing did at the end was remind me of the decades of failure and the pain it brought on. In talking about this before, I have asked: do you know of anyone who has failed at ANYTHING consistently for twenty years? That's not rhetoric or sarcasm. Can you imagine failing at anything, no matter how hard you tried or what you did, for so long?


Ever read through Steven King's “On Writing”? It's an excellent resource, as so many say. In it, he says that for writing to work, it must be “as sexy as skin on skin”.


Well, after so many years of heartache and failure, with so much painful baggage, writing isn't fun for me any more. It's poison.


That last MS wasn't the only thing I worked on for those five years, certainly. If would be more accurate to say “I spent two years writing it and continued to edit and refine as I moved on”. I was also working on the sequel (of a planned series), some other ideas, a number of supporting short stories, articles, reviews...none of which went anywhere. Well, except for those two sentences. I do, however, agree with you that I wasted all that time.


Mr. King also puts forth the idea that there are echelons of writers: bad ones, good ones, great ones, et al., and expresses the opinion that one cannot move up in those ranks: you cannot make a good writer of a bad one. I'm not sure what I might have made of that view in my youth, but upon reflection of how things have gone for me to date, I'm inclined to agree, and place myself solidly in the “bad” category.


That last MS, when I found no one willing to do anything but laugh at it for four years (again, harsh as it was, Mr. Jackass's reaction was very telling, as it helped me understand what likely happened every time I submitted the thing. I wish I had those countless hours of house research and query writing back), I put it up a little at a time on a serial publishing website.


There, it continued to do nothing. Even friends and online acquaintances that had been supportive of me in years past couldn't find time to help me spread the word. It's the era of social media, quick clicks and free sharing, and even with the damn thing online for free and easily accessible, STILL no one wanted it. A two-year project with thirty years of practice behind it, and I literally could not give it away.


So...yeah, I'm done. I had no business trying to be a “writer”. I simply have no talent, and that's really OK. What isn't acceptable is the pain I caused myself and those close to me agonizing for so many years wondering why I couldn't make anything of my utter lack of ability.


So, in the spirit of Litopia, I will continue to cheerlead and root for others here, because I know firsthand how hard the struggle is. I just wish I hadn't wasted so much of my life banging my head against a brick wall and wondering why it wasn't making me happy.


Emurelda, I hope your story does have a happy ending. Good luck with the entitled ass that thinks you owe him something...somehow.
Click to expand...
Alright, Lex — I've got to read this writing, that's so damn bad, and see for myself. If you're willing to allow me a read! Good, bad, or ugly, reading is good for the soul. I would love to offer you specific encouragement by way of repayment for your altruism.
 
Lex Black said:
Wow. All right, let me start off by apologizing to everyone for semi-hijacking the thread. That was never my intent. Really, I'm surprised anyone even took so much notice of my one story out of so many here.


Also let me include the preface that I do genuinely appreciate the goodwill of everyone here. I wasn't looking for sympathy or a pity party, I was just telling my own story (again, out of many here) and you are all very kind to be supportive.


That having been said, some responses:


The two people in question, particularly the man who laughed at me, are genuinely arrogant and unpleasant people. I spoke to them for all of 15 minutes, and have no desire to encounter them in any format again as long as I live.


Sidebar: the laughter was more annoying than anything. As I've said many times, I hate my work and I think little of it, so I was not as wounded by this as it might seem.


Mr. Positive Critique, though, immediately after laughing, proceeded in insist I should “keep writing” because I “had some talent”. When I replied that, no, I did not in fact have any talent, he responded with words to the effect of “Well, this one writer in this one essay says there's no such thing as “talent”, there's just being willing to do what you're told.”


In case it's not coming across, it quickly became clear that this guy was more interested in assuaging his own ego by arguing with me than providing any feedback. For my part, I just wanted the opinions of these two, one an established writer, the other a writer/editor, for where I went so wrong with something I had put so much effort into. A literary autopsy, if you will.


At any rate, jackass behavior or not, I still got responses from genuine professionals in the industry. I have been writing for over thirty years and have never published anything.


Actually, that's not true. I have exactly one professional credit. Wanna see it?


http://www.cracked.com/article_19386_5-classic-movies-that-almost-had-terrible-endings.html


That's my name there. Which confuses me, as after that pitch was accepted by the site (which genuinely surprised me, as it was the only one they ever took out of...I lost track of how many suggested), they rewrote it so as to be unrecognizable. There are exactly two sentences in that finished article I actually wrote.


I don't begrudge them that; it's in their TOS they may do things like that. The point is that, in 30+ years of writing, in almost 20 of attempting to do so professionally, my actual credit is literally TWO SENTENCES.


Again, I appreciate the goodwill here, and the intent behind telling me to keep writing if I enjoy it. The problem is, that enjoyment has long since ceased. All writing did at the end was remind me of the decades of failure and the pain it brought on. In talking about this before, I have asked: do you know of anyone who has failed at ANYTHING consistently for twenty years? That's not rhetoric or sarcasm. Can you imagine failing at anything, no matter how hard you tried or what you did, for so long?


Ever read through Steven King's “On Writing”? It's an excellent resource, as so many say. In it, he says that for writing to work, it must be “as sexy as skin on skin”.


Well, after so many years of heartache and failure, with so much painful baggage, writing isn't fun for me any more. It's poison.


That last MS wasn't the only thing I worked on for those five years, certainly. If would be more accurate to say “I spent two years writing it and continued to edit and refine as I moved on”. I was also working on the sequel (of a planned series), some other ideas, a number of supporting short stories, articles, reviews...none of which went anywhere. Well, except for those two sentences. I do, however, agree with you that I wasted all that time.


Mr. King also puts forth the idea that there are echelons of writers: bad ones, good ones, great ones, et al., and expresses the opinion that one cannot move up in those ranks: you cannot make a good writer of a bad one. I'm not sure what I might have made of that view in my youth, but upon reflection of how things have gone for me to date, I'm inclined to agree, and place myself solidly in the “bad” category.


That last MS, when I found no one willing to do anything but laugh at it for four years (again, harsh as it was, Mr. Jackass's reaction was very telling, as it helped me understand what likely happened every time I submitted the thing. I wish I had those countless hours of house research and query writing back), I put it up a little at a time on a serial publishing website.


There, it continued to do nothing. Even friends and online acquaintances that had been supportive of me in years past couldn't find time to help me spread the word. It's the era of social media, quick clicks and free sharing, and even with the damn thing online for free and easily accessible, STILL no one wanted it. A two-year project with thirty years of practice behind it, and I literally could not give it away.


So...yeah, I'm done. I had no business trying to be a “writer”. I simply have no talent, and that's really OK. What isn't acceptable is the pain I caused myself and those close to me agonizing for so many years wondering why I couldn't make anything of my utter lack of ability.


So, in the spirit of Litopia, I will continue to cheerlead and root for others here, because I know firsthand how hard the struggle is. I just wish I hadn't wasted so much of my life banging my head against a brick wall and wondering why it wasn't making me happy.


Emurelda, I hope your story does have a happy ending. Good luck with the entitled ass that thinks you owe him something...somehow.
Click to expand...


Lex, seriously, get The Artist's Way, by Julia Cameron. This book will save your life.

It's for people like you, who have been beaten down and feel they have no business being creative. She walks you step by step through recovering your creativity and sense of safety in being an artist.

It greatly helped me when I read it.

Aside from that, I totally get you. When I was 18, after five years of writing and writing and writing, I felt as if I were just grinding gears. I wanted so bad to write, but I had a dry well. I had nothing to write about at all. It honestly hurt so bad I didn't think I could bear it. Because if I wasn't a writer, what was I? It was the only way I had to define myself.

I decided that, essentially to save my life, I had to put aside my dream of writing--to give it up. It was that or live a life of despair.

So I did, and for a while I felt better, but the nag to write came back eventually, and I read that book I mentioned. I learned how to recover my creativity and fill the well, and I started writing again.

I honestly have no idea if I'm any good. I'm very fortunate in that no one has ever given me a Grumpy Cat stare and said, "Oh, you're a writer? Who decided that?" If someone had, I would probably quit all over again. But the only reason that's never happened is because I rarely show my work to anyone.

I keep hoping no one will care enough to say that to me. Honestly, to go out of one's way to crush a writer is just indicative of self-loathing on the person's part. Or some kind of visceral reaction to the story that s/he doesn't want to face.
 
Lex, I know how you feel. I've suffered the same bewildering mix of positive feedback followed by continual rejection when it comes to trying to actually publish something, which I suppose is how 'succeeding' as a writer is traditionally defined.

The fact that we've been rejected doesn't mean that we have no talent, though. I'd like to use a slightly bizarre allusion to professional sports to try and explain this...

I play a lot of tennis. It's my main pastime and an extremely difficult game to play well. I've played against players who are tremendously talented, who have incredible timing, touch and power and can easily beat me 6-0, 6-0. These players then go to play matches in the city...and they lose 6-0, 6-0. If those same city players who have hit tennis balls for three hours a day since they were five and have been coached to death go to play an actual tennis professional, what do you think will happen to them? Yup, they will lose - badly.

So how do we define success at tennis? Is it becoming a professional? Being ranked in the top 100 in the world? Unless you're a serious tennis nut you won't even have heard of most players in the top 100. In fact, the player ranked 99 in the world probably loses in the first round of most ATP ranked events. Some of them will win less than 10 ATP matches in a year. That's a lot of losing.

My point is this: you can be extremely talented at something, develop and hone skill for years, and still never make a name for yourself or enjoy conventional 'success'. You could be in the top 1% in the world of something in terms of skill - and still not achieve conventional success.

The best lesson most of us here could probably learn from writing is not to define success in the narrow, freakish terms of being blessed/lucky/chosen enough to be one of the few who actually realise their dreams but simply to do our best and enjoy it.
 
Lex Black said:
As before, I do appreciate your goodwill and intent, but since you are not at this moment hitting me in the face with a bat wrapped in Nazi propaganda I have trouble thinking of anything you could have done to justify inflicting my "writing" on you.

Meerkat, Steven, I likewise do appreciate what you are trying to do, but it's not about "success" anymore. I'm not kidding about writing being poison for me.

Anyone ever play the wonderful video game "Alan Wake", about a novelist going through some very creepy stuff in a town in the Pacific Northwest? Without getting too spoilery, Alan's been having some pretty bad writer's block for the last two years. A situation arises where he is *forced* to try to write something...and he experiences extreme discomfort when he tries to set a pen to paper (expressed in the medium as a bright flash of light and Alan crying out in pain).

That's how it is for me now, except it's a sharp stab of something like grief and nostalgia. Then I go and read something actually good, and think "I tried for so long to do this, and this is so much better than anything I ever could have produced".

It's long past time for me to bow out.
Click to expand...

Bonus points for mentioning Alan Wake. That's like my favorite video game ever.

It's a shame you've given up on writing for an audience, but that's your decision. I just hope you make that decision for you and not because you think you're "inflicting" it on others. It's our choice to like it or not. Don't make that decision for the readers and miss out on your chance to connect with a reader.
 
Lex Black said:
As before, I do appreciate your goodwill and intent, but since you are not at this moment hitting me in the face with a bat wrapped in Nazi propaganda I have trouble thinking of anything you could have done to justify inflicting my "writing" on you.

Meerkat, Steven, I likewise do appreciate what you are trying to do, but it's not about "success" anymore. I'm not kidding about writing being poison for me.

Anyone ever play the wonderful video game "Alan Wake", about a novelist going through some very creepy stuff in a town in the Pacific Northwest? Without getting too spoilery, Alan's been having some pretty bad writer's block for the last two years. A situation arises where he is *forced* to try to write something...and he experiences extreme discomfort when he tries to set a pen to paper (expressed in the medium as a bright flash of light and Alan crying out in pain).

That's how it is for me now, except it's a sharp stab of something like grief and nostalgia. Then I go and read something actually good, and think "I tried for so long to do this, and this is so much better than anything I ever could have produced".

It's long past time for me to bow out.
Click to expand...
Pshaw! Anyone happen to have a baseball bat and a Nazi flag on them? Quick!

NOBODY?!

Guess it's time for me to admit defeat...
 
Lex Black said:
Not just for an audience. At all. See the above: it's painful for me, and I gain nothing from it.
Click to expand...

Okay. All I'm saying is that I hope you make this decision for you not based on the feedback of others.

Sorry, I don't want to sound like I'm pressuring you to write. If you don't enjoy it, I totally agree with you. I wouldn't do it either.
 
Meerkat said:
Aside from that, my most valuable lesson . . . hmmm.

To listen to my intuition when writing.

Also, even if a real experience inspired a story, that I had to be willing ignore the facts and write a good story regardless of what actually happened.
Click to expand...

Actually this reminds me of a valuable point. If I find difficulty in writing, especially when I've written myself into a corner - the worst thing I can do is plan a way out of it, or "think" of a way out of it. Shut up, stop thinking, and write, and write and it will write it's on answer. I'm not saying that is immediate, sometimes you have to walk away. Point is (in my opinion) you have to let the "Story" write itself. Not saying editing mightn't change things, but that's later.
 
Lex Black said:
Wow. All right, let me start off by apologizing to everyone for semi-hijacking the thread. That was never my intent. Really, I'm surprised anyone even took so much notice of my one story out of so many here.

So, in the spirit of Litopia, I will continue to cheerlead and root for others here, because I know firsthand how hard the struggle is. I just wish I hadn't wasted so much of my life banging my head against a brick wall and wondering why it wasn't making me happy.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, having read your post, it seems to me that you can write, and write well. I suspect that the problem is that you just haven't written the right story. That sounds trite, but what I mean is, are you trying to squash your talents into a tale or genre that isn't really you? Or are you writing 'the story that only you can write'?
 
Marc Joan said:
For what it's worth, having read your post, it seems to me that you can write, and write well. I suspect that the problem is that you just haven't written the right story. That sounds trite, but what I mean is, are you trying to squash your talents into a tale or genre that isn't really you? Or are you writing 'the story that only you can write'?
Click to expand...
Ooooh... that's good advice. Marc's right — your voice on the forum is good, Lex Black. Sorry, that still sounds like a sci-fi superhero.

If you happen in the future to start tinkering with something that doesn't feel like poison and agony to write, but instead really gets you excited, don't fight it!
 
Marc Joan said:
For what it's worth, having read your post, it seems to me that you can write, and write well. I suspect that the problem is that you just haven't written the right story. That sounds trite, but what I mean is, are you trying to squash your talents into a tale or genre that isn't really you? Or are you writing 'the story that only you can write'?
Click to expand...
Oh, @Marc Joan , I meant to ask you — when was it that you truly felt successful?
 
Nicole Wilson said:
Hmm I seem to remember something similar to this....o_O
Click to expand...
Ah yes — I understand what he means when he says "if you're happy, then you are already successful." I understand what he means when he says "don't making the uncertain nature of writing the whole basis for your happiness." But Marc has been published. He has done the things of which many of us among the Colony only dream, most recently here, in the Spring 2015 issue of Hypnos Magazine. I wondered at what point he said "okay, now I've made it."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Café Life Tag Cloud

agent author authors blog book books cafe calls for submissions christmas competition conferences contest contests creative writing creativity editing fantasy fear fiction greetings huddle inspiration life literature litopia motivation new new member novel novels philosophy poetry publishing reading romance science fiction self-publishing shakespeare short story stories story submissions time winners words world writer writers writing writing contests

Similar threads

Paul Whybrow
Thought for the Day A bestseller was a book which....
Replies
1
Views
76
Pamela Jo
Pamela Jo
Paul Whybrow
Thought for the Day The danger of the past was that men....
Replies
1
Views
83
Vagabond Heart
Vagabond Heart
Pamela Jo
Craft Chat Psycho was blow your mind fresh nd original
Replies
1
Views
153
Ed Simnett
Ed Simnett
Pamela Jo
Why the only recent good BBC series was Happy Valley
Replies
0
Views
177
Pamela Jo
Pamela Jo
Paul Whybrow
Thought for the Day I was never....
Replies
0
Views
185
Paul Whybrow
Paul Whybrow
Back
Top