Thriller Genre or Something else?

[BarbaraUS]

For thriller readers - who are your favorite authors? I like Lincoln Child, Doug Preston, some Clive Cusslers' -- any world-affecting sciencey thriller.
For thriller writers - what are you writing?

At what point would you consider a Thriller set in the future Science Fiction or Speculative Fiction or Fantasy? Is Science Fiction the Umbrella Term here?

I got a quick rejection from a publisher who started off with "Ms. Clark, If you'd read our submission guidelines... blah blah blah." They chastised me for sending in Science Fiction because it starts in the future and I mention revolutionary crystals. Yes, the crystals are made up, and the setting is near future with a speculative, but not totally improbable scenario, where wars and volcanoes that lead to rare-earth minerals being hoarded by govts end the modern technological era. Otherwise, heavily researched on geology, climate, expert speculation on what ifs, geography, etc.

It's in the thriller genre (with required elements including an investigation) but see what LeGuin says below. Perhaps it's an eco-thriller with speculative fiction elements?

What is the difference between speculative fiction and science fiction?
Atwood also mentions a debate she had with Ursula K. Le Guin. Le Guin said that science fiction is speculative fiction when what is written about could really happen, whereas narratives that cannot, under any circumstances, happen in our world (i.e. Earthsea) classify separately as fantasy.Jan 24, 2020
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I wonder what Atwood thinks.

BarbaraUS

 

[Hannah F]

Fantasy can be in this world or a made-up world, but Sci Fi always seems to be outwith this world as we know it. Speculative fiction sounds like a better term for yours. You could also slot it in Climate fiction (a new trending genre).

Thriller vs speculative fiction: usually the one which is the main focus of the main plot is the genre you put first. If yours is first and foremost a thriller, I'd put thriller with speculative fiction elements as you suggested. (Just my opinion.)

 

[Brayati]

There are also two different emotional grabs with thriller versus spec fic - a thriller is about the fear of a known thing, and spec fic creates a sense of wonder (whether with the new speccie things of scientific merit or dreams, or the fantastical visions created in a new world).
So, is the main story line about the fear of a known thing (the characters know it's going to happen and fight to stop it happening), or is it something designed to create a sense of wonder (whether good or bad)?

 

[RK Wallis]

Sorry you got a rejection If the agent is chastising, then that's not the agent for you, anyway.

@Hannah F and @Brayati make good points.

I'm an eclectic casual thriller reader. So far, I like Lucy Foley, a new Aussie author, Kyle Perry, Thomas Harris, Michael Crichton.

You have looked into Story Grid. I'd do their 5 leaf clover. It wasn't until I did that I realised I'm writing a Fantasy Thriller. And this helped me recognise and shape the thriller elements: Thriller Genre: The Blending of Action, Crime, and Horror Stories

I'd recommend reading some Michael Crichton. I've read The Lost World (Jurassic Park isn't an ebook). For the first half, that's our world with a little hint of difference (like you'd have with the gems), but then you encounter the dinosaurs and they drive the thriller (the level of fear was so high for me, at one point, I had to put the book down and let my heart rate slow). It's classed as a thriller, even though in our world because, as @Brayati says, fear drives the plot (from the midpoint).

So, I'd ask the same question, what emotion drives your plot?

Did you see Pop Ups on Sunday? Jack at 46 mins said something really interesting about confident writing - stick to your guns - you'll find the right agent. Remember, it's a numbers game. Don't let 1 agent question too much, and if it doubt, ask the Huddle.

 

[JohnBertel]

I think a lot, probably the majority, of thriller readers want to know how stuff works. Nuclear subs, CIA, behavioural crime units etc. And would have no interest in sci-fi/fantasy no matter how many thriller tropes the story contains.

As I am writing a thriller in an otherworldly setting, I do hope some thriller fans can accept, even like, thrillers in other worlds. But I am very aware that it could be that the world in my story is too ordinary for s/f readers and too strange for thriller fans.

I think all we can do is choose a main genre, both in the writing and when going to the market.

 

[BarbaraUS]

There are also two different emotional grabs with thriller versus spec fic - a thriller is about the fear of a known thing, and spec fic creates a sense of wonder (whether with the new speccie things of scientific merit or dreams, or the fantastical visions created in a new world).
So, is the main story line about the fear of a known thing (the characters know it's going to happen and fight to stop it happening), or is it something designed to create a sense of wonder (whether good or bad)?

It's a known thing (world as we know it will end (ok, it won't end, but Antarctica will be destroyed, and thus huge amounts of sea level rise, etc.) if mining starts in Antarctica for anything, but in particular for these heretofore unknown crystals. So, P wants to ensure the crystal samples don't leave Antarctica. But crystals could also restore the lost technologies - which happened because of a projected thing that could happen in our world - and so, the crystals could do some good. Morally gray area I guess.

It is a thriller in my mind - not least b/c I have all the conventions and such per story grid - but there are speculative elements: it's the future and the crystals are made up.

The quote from LeGuin above makes me think speculative is considered (by some) as a subgenre of sci fi.

 

[Brayati]

Maybe change the crystals from made up to something real. Some examples (that could easily be transferred to exclusively found on your site):

Never-before-seen crystals found in perfectly preserved meteorite dust

The dust was perfectly preserved between two layers of snow.

www.livescience.com

Scientists Have Confirmed a Brand New Phase of Matter: Time Crystals

For months now, there's been speculation that researchers might have finally created time crystals - strange crystals that have an atomic structure that repeats not just in space, but in time, putting them in constant oscillation without energy.

www.sciencealert.com

Find a few more examples of newly-discovered science-based articles and 'adjust' the story to show them to be 'real' in the near future.

 

[BarbaraUS]

Maybe change the crystals from made up to something real. Some examples (that could easily be transferred to exclusively found on your site):

Never-before-seen crystals found in perfectly preserved meteorite dust

The dust was perfectly preserved between two layers of snow.

www.livescience.com

Scientists Have Confirmed a Brand New Phase of Matter: Time Crystals

For months now, there's been speculation that researchers might have finally created time crystals - strange crystals that have an atomic structure that repeats not just in space, but in time, putting them in constant oscillation without energy.

www.sciencealert.com

Find a few more examples of newly-discovered science-based articles and 'adjust' the story to show them to be 'real' in the near future.

Very Interesting @Serra K ...doesn't quite fit the current plot but would sure make for an interesting storyline!

Real world seems to be bumping up plot as it is. Started writing in 2019.. wrote about a pandemic in 2030. Ugh. Able to work current pandemic into the 2050 world and it helps with my late 2020s US-China war, trade issues and their withholding of rare earth minerals, world economic collapse, etc. Let's hope I'm wrong!

Then I thought maybe I could have China doing something nefarious in Antarctica only to find that China is potentially doing nefarious things in Antarctica.. so my hidden Chinese military base and prospecting is sadly not far off!

 

[Serra K]

@BarbaraUS I think you tagged me by accident but the second article was miraculously relevant to what I'm working on today!

 

[BarbaraUS]

@BarbaraUS I think you tagged me by accident but the second article was miraculously relevant to what I'm working on today!

Ha! There ya go - serendipity at work!

 

[BarbaraUS]

You have looked into Story Grid. I'd do their 5 leaf clover. It wasn't until I did that I realised I'm writing a Fantasy Thriller. And this helped me recognise and shape the thriller elements: Thriller Genre: The Blending of Action, Crime, and Horror Stories

I'd recommend reading some Michael Crichton. I've read The Lost World (Jurassic Park isn't an ebook). For the first half, that's our world with a little hint of difference (like you'd have with the gems), but then you encounter the dinosaurs and they drive the thriller (the level of fear was so high for me, at one point, I had to put the book down and let my heart rate slow). It's classed as a thriller, even though in our world because, as @Brayati says, fear drives the plot (from the midpoint).

So, I'd ask the same question, what emotion drives your plot?

Did you see Pop Ups on Sunday? Jack at 46 mins said something really interesting about confident writing - stick to your guns - you'll find the right agent. Remember, it's a numbers game. Don't let 1 agent question too much, and if it doubt, ask the Huddle.

Hi Rachel. Interesting list of authors. I'll have to check out the new Aussie author. Have read Tom Foley but not Lucy.

Michael Crichton is definitely a good example, but his personal philosophies on climate change showed through in his State of Fear novel.

I worked with a story grid editor two summers ago. She said I had a combination of thriller and action. She evaluated the conventions and obligatory scenes for each. I really wanted it to be a thriller so went in that direction.

Good suggestion re looking at their 5 leaf clover. I've seen it, but not studied it.

When I checked in with SG last year, their newer podcasts seem to be drilling down to an uber granular level, e.g., pheres. What is a Phere?. I sorta zoned out at that point and started listening to others for a more bird’s eye view of things again.

re what emotion? I just flipped through my handy Emotional Thesaurus (super helpful for character expression): I'd say: Suspicion and determination, with a healthy dose of guilt (feeling guilty for everything bad that happens).

Thanks for all the info - and for the pep talk. Much appreciated

 

[RK Wallis]

re what emotion? I just flipped through my handy Emotional Thesaurus (super helpful for character expression): I'd say: Suspicion and determination, with a healthy dose of guilt (feeling guilty for everything bad that happens).

Oh, sorry, not the emotions of Diane (is that right?), but the emotion you want to create in the reader. For a thriller, you want reads to feel fear for Diane etc. Sounds like you would have that, especially after working with a SG editor (How cool!). I love all their in-depth stuff out this year

 

[BarbaraUS]

Oh, sorry, not the emotions of Diane (is that right?), but the emotion you want to create in the reader. For a thriller, you want reads to feel fear for Diane etc. Sounds like you would have that, especially after working with a SG editor (How cool!). I love all their in-depth stuff out this year

ahh - that makes sense. Yes, readers will hopefully feel fear.
It was fun (working with SG editor), but a bit $$$ - It got me started anyway.
That's super that you love the in-depth stuff. There's so much to learn, isn't there?!

 

[Pamela Jo]

ahh - that makes sense. Yes, readers will hopefully feel fear.
It was cool (working with SG editor), but a bit $$$ - It got me started anyway.
That's cool that you love the in-depth stuff. There's so much to learn, isn't there?!

Barbara, my feeling is we are past creating fear in readers about climate change. The whole "Winter is coming" in Game of Thrones was about the collective feeling of dread knowing what is coming. If you present hope and solutions... as did Kim Stanley Robinson, you'll be positioned for the zeitgeist. A Sci-Fi Writer Returns to Earth: ‘The Real Story Is the One Facing Us’

 

[BarbaraUS]

Barbara, my feeling is we are past creating fear in readers about climate change. The whole "Winter is coming" in Game of Thrones was about the collective feeling of dread knowing what is coming. If you present hope and solutions... as did Kim Stanley Robinson, you'll be positioned for the zeitgeist. A Sci-Fi Writer Returns to Earth: ‘The Real Story Is the One Facing Us’

Totally agree @Pamela Jo .. most climate fiction is dystopian, think Waterworld !! Definitely staying clear of the term "dystopia." And given what's out there now in "Climate fiction," I'm hesitant to use the term. I don't think it applies and agents might have preconceived notion of what the novel is about.
I want to be realistic but provocative with imagining going back to the technology of the 1980s.. ultimately leave reader with a hopeful outlook ... and that itself gets into the new subgenre called "solarpunk," which is a term used all the time in some circles, but hasn't caught on with the mainstream yet.

If I have an author's note, i might ask, what are you willing to give up for a more sustainable future? My P thinks it's all things that rely on certain minerals.

Kim Stanley Robinson does propose solutions but I find most of his stuff so heavy in exposition that I don't always finish e.g., 2050. Enjoyed the Capitol series though. Have you read?
Thanks for the link. Look forward to checking it out!

Barbara

 

[Pamela Jo]

Totally agree @Pamela Jo .. most climate fiction is dystopian, think Waterworld !! Definitely staying clear of the term "dystopia." And given what's out there now in "Climate fiction," I'm hesitant to use the term. I don't think it applies and agents might have preconceived notion of what the novel is about.
I want to be realistic but provocative with imagining going back to the technology of the 1980s.. ultimately leave reader with a hopeful outlook ... and that itself gets into the new subgenre called "solarpunk," which is a term used all the time in some circles, but hasn't caught on with the mainstream yet.

If I have an author's note, i might ask, what are you willing to give up for a more sustainable future? My P thinks it's all things that rely on certain minerals.

Kim Stanley Robinson does propose solutions but I find most of his stuff so heavy in exposition that I don't always finish e.g., 2050. Enjoyed the Capitol series though. Have you read?
Thanks for the link. Look forward to checking it out!

Barbara

The link is probably nothing new to you, just an example of how anyone who offers some hope gets more coverage in the media. There's a lot of 80's nostalgia now anyway... That may be your selling hook. In the blurbs and first pages I've seen , that hasn't really come through. It seems more about a desperate race to try and preserve the technology we have and not change.

 

[BarbaraUS]

The link is probably nothing new to you, just an example of how anyone who offers some hope gets more coverage in the media. There's a lot of 80's nostalgia now anyway... That may be your selling hook. In the blurbs and first pages I've seen , that hasn't really come through. It seems more about a desperate race to try and preserve the technology we have and not change.

Oh, I had that early on - bigger discussion of what was lost - but that has been cast aside due to recommendations from professional (paid) editors. I had scaled the world building back as a result but before that publisher asked for a full, they asked me to rewrite the opening with just drips of world building in it - and that's what got them to read the whole thing! I do have mention of no more internet and no MRIs in beginning to pique the reader's interest.

And it is the bad guys willing to do anything to preserve technology - P is trying to stop that and share her ideas of a different path forward.. hard to get all that in the first few pages, but it's there.