News The Darling Killers (a.k.a Annie and Bev start a podcast)

[AnnieSummerlee]

Have to say, I disagree that you can't start with character. You can create a character (or more), get to know them really well then put them in "what if" situations. One of those what-ifs may become the inciting incident from which you build your plot around.

My present WIP: I knew the two main characters and I knew the inciting incident (because something similar but without the magic happened to a friend's family). The rest of the plot and other characters came from there but wouldn't have been the same if I hadn't already known the two main characters.

My Wolf Blind novel: I knew my protagonist before I had any idea of the story line. The next person I got to know was the antagonist. Then I worked out what she was antagonising about. The whole of the rest of the plot developed from that point.

I will add, I'm a plotter. Knowing characters first doesn't mean that you must pants your way through.

That's a great point Hannah, I definitely agree. I guess we all have strengths in different areas. Would you be alright with us including the first paragraph of this comment in the next episode?

 

[Pamela Jo]

Puppy slaughterer is one of the easiest ways to immediately identify character, though, isn't it? If we assume that to understand good we must understand evil, then she's totally necessary. My favorite writing lesson, which I attribute to Mario Vargas Llosa in Aunt Julia and Scriptwriter (which is a great novel about writing) is that villains are every bit as necessary as heroes to any story worth it's salt. We need someone to root for, and someone to hate. Either of these characters, alone feels wrong, but when both are present, the combo fills an instinctual need in humans.

Cough. Santos. George Cough. Romney whose political career was derailed by a bad puppy story calling out Santos. The motherload of irony. But absolutely agree on baddies. The recent edit of One Magic Summer points out that though my bad guy starts out pure evil I sag giving him his comeuppance. I need a scene where the reader has the satisfaction of seeing him suffer. One of the best bad guy character creations is Alan Rickman's Sheriff if Nottingham in Costner's Robin Hood. "Cancel Christmas." He makes that film work. And The Kurgan in the Highlander. An actor created that character and made the film yet he's still almost unknown. I think most watchers in the back of their mind believe that the Kurgan was real.

 

[Hannah F]

Oh, and @AnnieSummerlee and @Vagabond Heart, I need to add how much I love your title. Such a great choice! (I think it was maybe Stephen King who first said "Kill your darlings," by the way.) Podcast titles, like those for novels, can really draw a lot of people to them. I'm reminded of another podcast for writers which I follow: The Shit Nobody Tells You About Writing. Works for me! So does Darling Killers!

See my post above regarding the origin of the phrase.

 

[Hannah F]

That's a great point Hannah, I definitely agree. I guess we all have strengths in different areas. Would you be alright with us including the first paragraph of this comment in the next episode?

Yes, I'm very happy for you to include the first paragraph in your next episode.

 

[Hannah F]

Cough. Santos. George Cough. Romney whose political career was derailed by a bad puppy story calling out Santos. The motherload of irony. But absolutely agree on baddies. The recent edit of One Magic Summer points out that though my bad guy starts out pure evil I sag giving him his comeuppance. I need a scene where the reader has the satisfaction of seeing him suffer. One of the best bad guy character creations is Alan Rickman's Sheriff if Nottingham in Costner's Robin Hood. "Cancel Christmas." He makes that film work. And The Kurgan in the Highlander. An actor created that character and made the film yet he's still almost unknown. I think most watchers in the back of their mind believe that the Kurgan was real.

Alan Rickman was a BRILLIANT sheriff of Nottingham. Allegedly, they reduced his screen time because he was overshadowing Costner's Robin. And allegedly, the "and cancel Christmas" was his own impro that they thought was so funny they kept it in.

 

[MattScho]

Cough. Santos. George Cough. Romney whose political career was derailed by a bad puppy story calling out Santos. The motherload of irony. But absolutely agree on baddies. The recent edit of One Magic Summer points out that though my bad guy starts out pure evil I sag giving him his comeuppance. I need a scene where the reader has the satisfaction of seeing him suffer. One of the best bad guy character creations is Alan Rickman's Sheriff if Nottingham in Costner's Robin Hood. "Cancel Christmas." He makes that film work. And The Kurgan in the Highlander. An actor created that character and made the film yet he's still almost unknown. I think most watchers in the back of their mind believe that the Kurgan was real.

If you created Santos as a fictional baddie, he'd seem a bit over the top. And I can't see Rickman's name without thinking of him in Galaxy Quest and giggling.

 

[CarolMS]

See my post above regarding the origin of the phrase.

Thanks, Hannah! I found it. Fun to know.

 

[ChantalS]

I love that little shit of a dog. And several times he is integral to moving the plot forward. Lesson-if you are going to have a deus ex machine make it so much fun that nobody cares. This is kind of true in The Last of Us, where the plot needed a way for the MC to move ahead with the plot. The writers used an entire episode to set that up memorably rather than just tell and go on.

To be fair, they had to add stuff to The Last Of Us because there wasn’t enough narrative in the game to make it an entire show. The game creator is one of the writers so they expanded on what he had originally written.

 

[ChantalS]

There's a pretty strong current in mainstream modern cinema that obviously agrees with your premise, and takes it step further. ie The story should not start until we know the characters well enough to understand why they will make the choices they make. It is not my cup of tea, but I've stumbled across quite a few films made in this mode, esp since the beginning of the pandemic. I have to force myself through the first hour of these things, or, just as often, quit.

Which movies? Just interested and wonder if I hate them too, lol.

 

[CarolMS]

That's probably because they are putting everything on screen when much of the character info that the author/screenwriter needs to know is actually under-the-surface-iceberg stuff.

This is a tricky issue. It depends on the story. If movie-watchers, or readers, are put-off by the movies or novels because they don't understand why characters are making the choices they are making or perhaps seeing the characters as not believable--a subjective judgement based on people's limited personal knowledge and experience--then the need for more up-front backstory may make sense (despite its being commonly advised against). Since the best advice is to put the backstory in when it's needed for characters' motivations and what's happening to be understood, sometimes that's earlier rather than later. I've found this can often be a challenging balancing act.

 

[Pamela Jo]

To be fair, they had to add stuff to The Last Of Us because there wasn’t enough narrative in the game to make it an entire show. The game creator is one of the writers so they expanded on what he had originally written.

Of course they had to add stuff, what is interesting what stuff they add and how they make it work. This episode could have really slowed down the pacing, but coming after a heartstopping 2nd episode it was a brilliant way to not only move the plot forward, but heighten the tension. Masterfully done.

 

[ChantalS]

Of course they had to add stuff, what is interesting what stuff they add and how they make it work. This episode could have really slowed down the pacing, but coming after a heartstopping 2nd episode it was a brilliant way to not only move the plot forward, but heighten the tension. Masterfully done.

Oh I agree. Are we talking about the third episode? I loved it - that was the strongest one for me. I just watched the most recent one, I think episode five, last night and I had a similar reaction where I really began to care about the characters in a short span of time (trying not to spoil anything here). It is so well written while not being overdone.

 

[Eva Ulian]

Very nice, fresh and chatty but oh dear by far too, too, long. Not even Stephen king would venture to do an hour. Also, I think you meandered a little too much- you have to keep it short, sharp and to the point otherwise your listeners will end up doing the washing up and only listen with half an ear. Hope the next one will shine for its sharpness.

 

[Hannah F]

Very nice, fresh and chatty but oh dear by far too, too, long. Not even Stephen king would venture to do an hour. Also, I think you meandered a little too much- you have to keep it short, sharp and to the point otherwise your listeners will end up doing the washing up and only listen with half an ear. Hope the next one will shine for its sharpness.

I agree with the hour being perhaps too long. An hour's podcast is a lot for the listener to commit to. The "Writing Excuses" podcasts are 15 minutes long. 15 or 20 is a good length for busy people, I think. You don't really want listening to turn into a feeling of procrastination, no matter how good the content may be. When i saw it was nearly an hour long, my time-keeping brain-cells sighed. I only listened because it was you guys.

 

[AnnieSummerlee]

I agree with the hour being perhaps too long. An hour's podcast is a lot for the listener to commit to. The "Writing Excuses" podcasts are 15 minutes long. 15 or 20 is a good length for busy people, I think. You don't really want listening to turn into a feeling of procrastination, no matter how good the content may be. When i saw it was nearly an hour long, my time-keeping brain-cells sighed. I only listened because it was you guys.

I do get that some people like short podcasts, I prefer long ones though, and could listen to 1h+ depending on the show. I'll keep in mind the sharper thing, I did cut roughly 20 min from the original convo. I'm sure that after a few episodes we'll find our footing!

 

[ChantalS]

Don't forget one of the most popular podcasts out there (although I will NEVER understand why for the life of me) is Joe Rogan and each of his episodes are like 2+ hours long. I actually won't listen to anything that is only 15 minutes or less, I figure they aren't really getting into anything meaty if it's too short and is therefore not worth my investment. It's basically a drive by overview of something, like a sneeze of information. If I'm not getting at least thirty minutes of something I won't bother, but my personal sweet spot is an hour. I can do some painting while listening to something and feel as though whatever topic is delved into is really examined.

As with anything though I think it takes time to find your footing. I also think things can't be for everyone. What works for one person won't necessarily work for the next. C'est la vie, right?

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I sought the podcast on Apple. I live in the USA. Is it available here?

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Don't forget one of the most popular podcasts out there (although I will NEVER understand why for the life of me) is Joe Rogan and each of his episodes are like 2+ hours long. I actually won't listen to anything that is only 15 minutes or less, I figure they aren't really getting into anything meaty if it's too short and is therefore not worth my investment. It's basically a drive by overview of something, like a sneeze of information. If I'm not getting at least thirty minutes of something I won't bother, but my personal sweet spot is an hour. I can do some painting while listening to something and feel as though whatever topic is delved into is really examined.

As with anything though I think it takes time to find your footing. I also think things can't be for everyone. What works for one person won't necessarily work for the next. C'est la vie, right?

Joe Rogan rants. People who like ranting prefer an immersive experience... Like the fans of a recent POTUS... Succinct presentation of facts is not their jam. They want protracted expressions of emotion.

On another note, your statements about Scrivener during today's huddle surprised me. I have used it for years without serious problems. Exports to Word work, but I have not changed the default settings. I wonder if Litopians would benefit from a discussion of the various creative writing apps, story organizers, etc. Your thoughts?

 

[ChantalS]

Joe Rogan rants. People who like ranting prefer an immersive experience... Like the fans of a recent POTUS... Succinct presentation of facts is not their jam. They want protracted expressions of emotion.

On another note, your statements about Scrivener during today's huddle surprised me. I have used it for years without serious problems. Exports to Word work, but I have not changed the default settings. I wonder if Litopians would benefit from a discussion of the various creative writing apps, story organizers, etc. Your thoughts?

I was just telling you what a bunch of editors had posted on a facebook group. These are editors who don't know each other and work all over the US and I think the UK. I'm not an editor and I don't use scrivener. It does seem odd to me that a large number of people would be exporting things incorrectly in the exact same way to cause the exact same problems for all these editors unless there are default settings you need to play with? I have no idea. It's funny this came up right after I read the messages. I use Pages and that's apparently the worst culprit so I was invested in that portion. I guess I'll have to pay for Word for mac after all.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I was just telling you what a bunch of editors had posted on a facebook group. These are editors who don't know each other and work all over the US and I think the UK. I'm not an editor and I don't use scrivener. It does seem odd to me that a large number of people would be exporting things incorrectly in the exact same way to cause the exact same problems for all these editors unless there are default settings you need to play with? I have no idea. It's funny this came up right after I read the messages. I use Pages and that's apparently the worst culprit so I was invested in that portion. I guess I'll have to pay for Word for mac after all.

I agree this seems odd, and I do not want to turn this into a research project, but do these editors have bestsellers in their credentials? Have they made books into bestsellers, or are they nonentities drawing salaries from publishers while producing nothing anyone reads?

 

[ChantalS]

I don't know. It's a facebook group for writers and editors. One editor posted something to the effect of 'I've seen issues coming from Scrivener manuscripts' and then there was a pile on of other editors both liking that post (meaning agreeing with it) and also commenting on it saying 'me too, Scrivener messes up apostrophes and adds extra spaces' as well as 'yeah I hate it but not as much as Pages' and stuff like that. Nobody gave their credentials, it was basically just a bitch fest.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I don't know. It's a facebook group for writers and editors. One editor posted something to the effect of 'I've seen issues coming from Scrivener manuscripts' and then there was a pile on of other editors both liking that post (meaning agreeing with it) and also commenting on it saying 'me too, Scrivener messes up apostrophes and adds extra spaces' as well as 'yeah I hate it but not as much as Pages' and stuff like that. Nobody gave their credentials, it was basically just a bitch fest.

Then just let it go as a session of complaints...

 

[ChantalS]

Then just let it go as a session of complaints...

As I said, I don't use Scrivener. I don't particularly like Pages and figured I'd have to switch over at some point to Word anyway but I may have to do it sooner than later. I'm not really thinking twice about it.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

As I said, I don't use Scrivener. I don't particularly like Pages and figured I'd have to switch over at some point to Word anyway but I may have to do it sooner than later. I'm not really thinking twice about it.

That should work.

 

[MattScho]

Very nice, fresh and chatty but oh dear by far too, too, long. Not even Stephen king would venture to do an hour. Also, I think you meandered a little too much- you have to keep it short, sharp and to the point otherwise your listeners will end up doing the washing up and only listen with half an ear. Hope the next one will shine for its sharpness.

The longest podcast episode Stephen King has done, to date, is three hours 30 minutes. His podcast also has several two hours plus episodes and lots of one hour takes. Podcasts are all over the place but one hour plus is pretty common among the people I worked with who did them.
You are on to something with the podcast to wash up to, though. Find the perfect podcast for washing up and you could seriously monetize that

 

[Hannah F]

The longest podcast episode Stephen King has done, to date, is three hours 30 minutes. His podcast also has several two hours plus episodes and lots of one hour takes. Podcasts are all over the place but one hour plus is pretty common among the people I worked with who did them.
You are on to something with the podcast to wash up to, though. Find the perfect podcast for washing up and you could seriously monetize that

I wash dishes in the sink, but most people have dishwasher machines these days, don't they?

(I guess I'm one of those people with a short listening-attention-span. If there are no words or pictures, my concentration drifts. A 3hr+ podcast? I wouldn't even try.)

 

[ChantalS]

The longest podcast episode Stephen King has done, to date, is three hours 30 minutes. His podcast also has several two hours plus episodes and lots of one hour takes. Podcasts are all over the place but one hour plus is pretty common among the people I worked with who did them.
You are on to something with the podcast to wash up to, though. Find the perfect podcast for washing up and you could seriously monetize that

Don't get carried away. I love podcasts but everybody has one. I don't say this to dampen anybody's spirits by any means but rather to temper expectations. Monetizing a podcast isn't easy beans. Off the top of my head I know four people who have one and that's just a straight up podcast - if you count streaming via youtube as a podcast it's even more.

Hannah you underestimate how many people are working for themselves now and want something on in the background! I have podcasts or shows on while I paint and my husband hasn't gone back to work in the office since Covid. He codes from home and mostly has music on but sometimes will have a podcast on. My best friend locally works remotely as an accountant and has stuff on in the background too.

 

[Mel L]

Joe Rogan rants. People who like ranting prefer an immersive experience... Like the fans of a recent POTUS... Succinct presentation of facts is not their jam. They want protracted expressions of emotion.

On another note, your statements about Scrivener during today's huddle surprised me. I have used it for years without serious problems. Exports to Word work, but I have not changed the default settings. I wonder if Litopians would benefit from a discussion of the various creative writing apps, story organizers, etc. Your thoughts?

I would enjoy a discussion on those tools!

 

[Barbara]

Re length. Well, here's my 2 crumbs of biscuits worth.

I don't think length matters all that much, although I too prefer short pods. Folk listen to Joe R's endless rant because of him, his character, his guests and the name he's built. And they listen to Steven K for 30 mins because of who he is. He could talk ten hours and his fans would tune in. In short, it's about having a following.

For us mere mortals: People will listen to any length if its engaging. It's about content. And about standing out against others in your genre. Being different.

When Jonny and myself started Green Cows Don't Fly (if that isnt a bit mad I don't know what is) season 1 quickly had 2k unique listeners and growing. We're now starting season 3. Our episodes are around 30 mins. The 30 mins happened organically because of what we do (it's not easy to shut Jonny up, I tell you ) but we also want to keep them shorter cos it's a lot of work to do longer episodes. The effort of it all is something you might want to keep in mind.

You have picked a busy genre with many similar others, all calling out to be heard. And as someone already said, in general everyone has a pod. Monetising is near impossible unless you can get the following ... So do it for the enjoyment of it for now. Don't fret about the length. Just do what you do. Watch the stats to see how you're doing and adapt what you do if you need.

Concentrate on building a following. Obs social media etc. But another good way of doing that is to be supportive of others' podcasts. That is something Jon and I naturally did from he start cos that's who we are (as you know Jonny is the chatty, social, friendly type). We made connections. We received, and still do, lots of support back. Just get yourselves into the pod world. It is a friendly and helpful community. Ignore the unsupporive ones. (Only on one or two occasions did we have folk being unsupportive. There's always one or two who tries to drown you. They don't matter. Everyone else out there will be right behind you.) Remember those who did support you and make a connection with them. It'll pay off. It's a lovely pod community out there which you can learn from. We help each other grow. And you might get invited to guest on theirs.

It's a hec of a lot of work.

But fun.

Re the washing up. That's what I have a husband for. Surely, that's the whole point of having one ...?
.

 

[AnnieSummerlee]

I sought the podcast on Apple. I live in the USA. Is it available here?

Hi Peyton,
It should be out by now, but let me know if you can't find it!