Craft Chat Submitting to agents

[Lakeland Waffler]

Hi everyone. Me again, although I’m hoping you’ll forgive me, as I’m not asking for your help this time. Also, if this is not deemed as allowed or appropriate, please delete.

I’ve been wondering recently about everyone else’s thoughts and feelings on the agent/publisher submission process, and I wondered whether it might be useful to simply start a conversation about it.

So maybe people can talk about where they are in the process, how they’re feeling about it, any feedback they’ve received, anything they have felt that has worked or not with their submission package. A place of mutual support if anyone has had a bad experience.

Also, forgive me if this has already been talked about, as I’m still relatively new here.

Clare x

 

[Sedayne]

A good topic to discuss. I think a lot of us are or have been going through it. And there's a lot of conflicting advice out there.

Personally, I'm rather submission shy. Although my novel had been thoroughly edited and beta-read, reduced word count, better title, got great feedback, and is 'ready', it's still not getting anywhere. My synopsis and query letter have been Huddled several times. Not working. My only full MS request so far has been from a US independent publisher who isn't really right for the book and probably won't want it (I didn't submit the novel, they asked about it after accepting one of my short stories). But perhaps I haven't sent it to enough agents or the right agents yet.
I've still not had the guts to send it to the agents I really really want because I'm not ready to strike them off the list yet.

A lot of it is down to luck. Hitting the right pace, person and time. Hitting the market right. And you can write what you love or you can write to an ever fluctuating market. Lucky if the two coincide.

I also believe that class is still a huge barrier in the UK. That's a whole other discussion.

PJ posted something interesting the other day, not sure where it's from, about agents taking 20-30 seconds to decide from the query letter, and most won't read the opening pages. This goes against some other things I've read, and agents' own websites that say they read everything that's sent to them. But it makes a lot of sense too. Especially about one rejection I got within an hour of submitting!

My other thought on this (and then I promise I'll shut up), is the term 'trenches'. I hear it a lot, and I find it mildly offensive. There are no lives at stake here, only our confidence, self-esteem and motivation, etc.

 

[Sedayne]

Also, it feels personal, but really it's such an impersonal process, at least at the start.
What means everything to me, means nothing to the agent's assistant working through a pile of submissions. I can't take it personally. Just got to try harder to get their attention. Or get on with writing other stuff for other things.

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

A good topic to discuss. I think a lot of us are or have been going through it. And there's a lot of conflicting advice out there.

Personally, I'm rather submission shy. Although my novel had been thoroughly edited and beta-read, reduced word count, better title, got great feedback, and is 'ready', it's still not getting anywhere. My synopsis and query letter have been Huddled several times. Not working. My only full MS request so far has been from a US independent publisher who isn't really right for the book and probably won't want it (I didn't submit the novel, they asked about it after accepting one of my short stories). But perhaps I haven't sent it to enough agents or the right agents yet.
I've still not had the guts to send it to the agents I really really want because I'm not ready to strike them off the list yet.

A lot of it is down to luck. Hitting the right pace, person and time. Hitting the market right. And you can write what you love or you can write to an ever fluctuating market. Lucky if the two coincide.

I also believe that class is still a huge barrier in the UK. That's a whole other discussion.

PJ posted something interesting the other day, not sure where it's from, about agents taking 20-30 seconds to decide from the query letter, and most won't read the opening pages. This goes against some other things I've read, and agents' own websites that say they read everything that's sent to them. But it makes a lot of sense too. Especially about one rejection I got within an hour of submitting!

My other thought on this (and then I promise I'll shut up), is the term 'trenches'. I hear it a lot, and I find it mildly offensive. There are no lives at stake here, only our confidence, self-esteem and motivation, etc.

I think I’m somewhere near the same point myself and I agree about the fear of sending it to the agents at the top of the list. ‘Cause when they’re gone they’re gone and then what? Self publishing, I guess but that’s fine.

My husband can’t understand why I don’t just self publish already, rather than putting myself through this ‘rejection process’ and I’m not sure that I even know the answer as to why I want to try to traditionally publish anyway.

I’ve got to agree with the luck part too. Not that I have any idea how to improve it, but I do have to make sure I have my lucky dog socks on if I’m doing anything important. Saying that, I did see one tip from Agent Pete somewhere on here about the best time to send a submission. It was something like ten past ten on a Tuesday morning, if memory serves me right but I’m sure I wrote it down somewhere.

It doesn’t fill me with optimism that I perhaps have 30 seconds to impress either and like you say, it’s probably not even the agent seeing it first but their assistant.

For me though, the worst thing is not hearing back at all. I feel like I’ve wasted months hanging on till I’ve heard, or usually not, and still not knowing what didn’t work. I feel like I’m shooting into the dark and hoping to hit a bullseye a mile out.

All that said, I don’t want to be too despondent. I’m hoping with this thread we can all chip in with a little support, bright ideas and general positivity to help us all keep going.

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

One question, before I forget, if anyone has any thoughts/knowledge. Uk vs us agents?? I’m currently submitting to uk agents only. Would it be a bad idea to submit to us agents once you’ve exhausted the agents on your uk list?

 

[Sedayne]

My husband can’t understand why I don’t just self publish already, rather than putting myself through this ‘rejection process’ and I’m not sure that I even know the answer as to why I want to try to traditionally publish anyway.

Self publishing scares me way more than submitting to agents. It only works if you've got the marketing skills to promote the book in the right places. I wouldn't stand a chance. I don't even have the skills to whip up any sort of a following on social media.
Hats off to those who can do it. And there are a few incredibly successful self-publishers on Litopia.
Bound to be a lot of interest for your novel locally, though. You'd easily get interviews on local TV and radio.

 

[BrianY]

I've been submitting writing and photography to editors and agents for more than fifty years and while it can be disappointing, it isn't the ordeal that so many people seem to fear. Indeed, it looks to me like self-published authors face a far bigger ordeal. In Pennsylvania, you see them at all sorts of events with cases of books (that they've paid for) tables, props, and sometimes even costumes. They've avoided the "pain" of rejection and instead find themselves spending their time at makeshift tables in shopping malls.

... and ... you don't just submit to agents. You submit to every sort of outlet from small presses to literary websites and you do it from your own desk.

 

[E G Logan]

Uk vs us agents??

I'm going for both, on the basis that the US market is so much bigger. But it does take 2 different approaches.

Either way, don't take it personally and don't get too upset. The thing I find hardest is the number who think it's perfectly OK not to reply at all. I know they've warned us on their website that they will only reply to those submissions they want to take further... but still.

 

[Sedayne]

They've avoided the "pain" of rejection and instead find themselves spending their time at makeshift tables in shopping malls.

You make a good point @BrianY
For me, personally, this feels like a far worse fate than agent rejection.

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

Self publishing scares me way more than submitting to agents. It only works if you've got the marketing skills to promote the book in the right places. I wouldn't stand a chance. I don't even have the skills to whip up any sort of a following on social media.
Hats off to those who can do it. And there are a few incredibly successful self-publishers on Litopia.
Bound to be a lot of interest for your novel locally, though. You'd easily get interviews on local TV and radio.

Yeah, I totally get that. I just can’t bear social media and the older I get the more it pisses me off, mostly because it’s just a marketing tool nowadays.
I could sell locally, no doubt with some degree of success but yeah, the thought of marketing myself -arrrgghh! Plus I’m a bumbling fuckwit if pressed.
In fact the more I think about, the more I’m talking myself into continuing submitting!

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

I've been submitting writing and photography to editors and agents for more than fifty years and while it can be disappointing, it isn't the ordeal that so many people seem to fear. Indeed, it looks to me like self-published authors face a far bigger ordeal. In Pennsylvania, you see them at all sorts of events with cases of books (that they've paid for) tables, props, and sometimes even costumes. They've avoided the "pain" of rejection and instead find themselves spending their time at makeshift tables in shopping malls.

... and ... you don't just submit to agents. You submit to every sort of outlet from small presses to literary websites and you do it from your own desk.

Some excellent points, well made

 

[RK Wallis]

I've learnt so much in the 7 years I've been on Litopia. I flew in the dark the 20 years before that, arrogant enough that I could do it all on my own. I've learned that's impossible.

I've read it takes 6 to 10 years to find your voice and again, I arrogantly believed I had the skills (especially after a few years on Litopia, reading every writing book I could, critiquing everyone's work). I believed I'd written interesting stories for my past books (I've lost count, maybe 5?).

Rejection after rejection tells me I haven't. I've had so many rejections, they're water off a duck's back and I never take it personally, not anymore. The sting has gone and been replaced by boredom. They're are so many awesome writers out there, I understand it's not my turn yet.

I submit to both UK and US agents, and even Aussie ones. UK agents need a very different approach than US and Aussie, who are similar. You need a UK query and a US one. I've had requests from the US and Aussie that all went no where. Not had a request from the UK yet.

I have self-published (the book was picked up by an Aussie agent, but not a publisher because they wouldn't have made enough money out of the book's niche market) and it requires too much heavy-lifting for my dumb arse, lol

I remember Pete saying in a huddle to try your luck, then move on and write something new. That's what I do and I find myself finishing books faster. From a twenty year passion project, down to 2 years, then 1 year and my current one I'm hoping for 6 months.

I'm going to do an experiment. I'm going to paste the first page of the novel I first worked on in Litopia (it was worked to death) in the Lab and I'll post the first page of my current first draft. The idea behind the experiment is multifold. IMHO, it should show the difference between writing slow and writing fast; work that's over-critiqued versus a first draft after I have a few novels under my belt; that letting go and moving on is healthy for your writing and, hopefully, that writing a good story isn't enough and we can't do anything about it. Let it go and move on. You'll thank your future self.

 

[Claire G]

Submitting: perseverance in the long-term is key, as well as accepting when it's time to move on to a new project, and having an awareness of the current market (and really tailor a section of your query letter to demonstrate how your novel fits in with this!). I spent years/several books querying before I got an agent for a novel that ultimately didn't sell to publishers (too experimental/niche, and to be honest I have no idea how I'd have written a follow-up book in the same genre, as publishers apparently prefer). I'm now working with a new agent on a genre that I feel excited about and driven to write after years of experimentation (I experimented with genre because I enjoy reading different genres, but this probably slowed my progress down to be fair, because I wasn't developing my craft in any one area).

When it comes to self-publishing, I dabbled in this for a while - social media and paid advertising seem to be vital (also having professional help to start with, e.g. book cover design, editing, formatting etc!). But I never got my head around how to make paid advertising profitable without investing a lot of money up front, which I wasn't able/willing to do. I heard one successful self-pubbed author say that he took out a bank loan to kick off his self-publishing career, and it obviously paid off but...risky! I assume that, if you put money in up front, you then get exposure (I.e. your discoverability goes up), this gets you sales, which gets you reviews, then the latter two make the Amazon algorithm kick in ("Woah, this book is getting lots of traction, let's expose it even more!"). It then becomes a little feedback loop, but even then I've read that paid advertising is still essential (until you meet Colleen Hoover, Any Weir, Hugh Howey or Frieda McFadden level, perhaps!).

 

[Pamela Jo]

There are obviously people still getting picked up by agents and sold to publishers so it's possible, but think like an agent. Do you actually have something you can stand on a street corner and flog? In a way the trad market is doing you a favour w the attitude -if you cant sell it neither can we.

I'm going to try a new kind of self-publishing. The Amazon route is as fixed as any casino in Vegas. The main thing is not to see trad publishing as the powers that be giving you license to be a writer. Nor the academic, contest -judging literary set. You have to do print your own license and do what it takes to make it valid.

If you only have a small number of readers make your peace with that or figure out how to sell stories to a bigger audience.

The old world died with the 2nd Elizabethan age. The replacement isn't formed yet. We have to figure it out ourselves and how we do so will be part of shaping that new world.

 

[BrianY]

Okay ... I acknowledge that this thread had "Agents" in its title, but our work has to be about submissions of every sort. Our biggest task is reminding ourselves that we are far more than just a book. We have to get our stuff out there.

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

Okay ... I acknowledge that this thread had "Agents" in its title, but our work has to be about submissions of every sort. Our biggest task is reminding ourselves that we are far more than just a book. We have to get our stuff out there.

So very true

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

Submitting: perseverance in the long-term is key, as well as accepting when it's time to move on to a new project,

This! I think as a first timer, it’s difficult to know when to move on.

I’m certainly not ready to throw in the towel on ‘Echoes/jewel of Derwentwater’ but I’m achieving sweet f.a on my next project.

Maybe I just need more hours in each day!

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

I've learnt so much in the 7 years I've been on Litopia. I flew in the dark the 20 years before that, arrogant enough that I could do it all on my own. I've learned that's impossible.

I've read it takes 6 to 10 years to find your voice and again, I arrogantly believed I had the skills (especially after a few years on Litopia, reading every writing book I could, critiquing everyone's work). I believed I'd written interesting stories for my past books (I've lost count, maybe 5?).

Rejection after rejection tells me I haven't. I've had so many rejections, they're water off a duck's back and I never take it personally, not anymore. The sting has gone and been replaced by boredom. They're are so many awesome writers out there, I understand it's not my turn yet.

I submit to both UK and US agents, and even Aussie ones. UK agents need a very different approach than US and Aussie, who are similar. You need a UK query and a US one. I've had requests from the US and Aussie that all went no where. Not had a request from the UK yet.

I have self-published (the book was picked up by an Aussie agent, but not a publisher because they wouldn't have made enough money out of the book's niche market) and it requires too much heavy-lifting for my dumb arse, lol

I remember Pete saying in a huddle to try your luck, then move on and write something new. That's what I do and I find myself finishing books faster. From a twenty year passion project, down to 2 years, then 1 year and my current one I'm hoping for 6 months.

I'm going to do an experiment. I'm going to paste the first page of the novel I first worked on in Litopia (it was worked to death) in the Lab and I'll post the first page of my current first draft. The idea behind the experiment is multifold. IMHO, it should show the difference between writing slow and writing fast; work that's over-critiqued versus a first draft after I have a few novels under my belt; that letting go and moving on is healthy for your writing and, hopefully, that writing a good story isn't enough and we can't do anything about it. Let it go and move on. You'll thank your future self.

It’s so hard though, when you’ve put your all into it and it’s something you absolutely believe in.

That sounds like such an interesting experiment Rachel. I’ll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

In the meantime, I’m guessing we’ve all just got to plough on and I’m sure with each other’s help we can all improve and we’ll all have our day, fingers crossed.

 

[BrianY]

When I first joined Litopia, I expected much more talk of submissions and publishing possibilities. It's a direction I'd like to see it go in. Why aren't more of us submitting to literary websites, local magazines, or themed publications? Indeed, I've stopped during the past few years and really regret it.

We are NOT faced with a choice of agent vs self publishing! There's so much out there! Could it include dressing up in costume at local events? Maybe. But our real choices are vast and none of us can afford to ignore any of it.

 

[Sedayne]

Why aren't more of us submitting to literary websites, local magazines, or themed publications? Indeed, I've stopped during the past few years and really regret it.

I've really got into the Lit Mag scene in the last six months, not just submitting, but reading too. There are wide and varied opportunities out there. The rewards may be smaller scale, but they're within closer reach than in book publishing.

 

[Sedayne]

My fave resource for lit mag opportunities is Authors Publish Magazine They only list places that are free to submit to.

I follow a few good lit mag resources on Substack too. I'll hunt out some links later if anyone wants them.

 

[Josephine]

My fave resource for lit mag opportunities is Authors Publish Magazine They only list places that are free to submit to.

I follow a few good lit mag resources on Substack too. I'll hunt out some links later if anyone wants them.

+1 for Authors Publish, they also do a free ebook walking you through the process of lit mag submissions if it's something you've never done before (which I hadn't, and was intimidated by). Have now had a handful of poems published which feels like a real win. It now feels much less personal getting rejections - I daresay my feelings on that will be very different if/when it's a full novel I'm peddling but still.

 

[Pamela Jo]

My fave resource for lit mag opportunities is Authors Publish Magazine They only list places that are free to submit to.

I follow a few good lit mag resources on Substack too. I'll hunt out some links later if anyone wants them.

Good idea. I would like a thread on contests and submissions. I used to get a steady supply from another writing group that I no longer belong to. It cost about 60.00 a month and I decided Litopia was far better value. The one thing I think we need is a place where we can post all the contests and submissions out there.
I have been successful at contests over the last 5 years. And in fact this year's xmas present was to see my name and work in an actual print book. The result of a contest I entered for fun.
Mon. I stayed up til midnight entering the Curtis Browne Discoveries with the book I've started from that contest entry.

These entries are certainly a way to keep your spirit up. But honestly I think though they may have once been a route to getting published that has lessened over the last 5 years.I know quite a few people who have won these contests and they are not yet published.

Yet a Litopian two years ago successfully pitched her Royal Road project and ended up with a bidding war and international publication. She was always a powerful and elegant writer in the literary vein, but something she did for fun was picked up. Be DAMN good. Know the market and the Zeitgeist so you have a product that everyone wants and you can get a contract.

If you are not yet DAMNABLY, Double Damn good then imo you are better off working on that rather than start submitting to agents. I appreciate RK's experiment. I will say that I remember when she used to come to Huddle with her project and I testify that her latest projects have transcended.

That said Query Tracker is a good way to organise submissions.

 

[Sedayne]

While we're on the subject, this just popped into my inbox.

You a writer? Here’s some free shit

 

[Sedayne]

I have been successful at contests over the last 5 years. And in fact this year's xmas present was to see my name and work in an actual print book. The result of a contest I entered for fun.

It's a great boost. Was that your microfiction/puzzle mystery thing? That was awesome.

Mon. I stayed up til midnight entering the Curtis Browne Discoveries with the book I've started from that contest entry.

Absolutely no reason not to enter stuff like this. Nothing to lose. And the very process helps sharpen things up even if it doesn't result in being longlisted or whatever.

Yet a Litopian two years ago successfully pitched her Royal Road project and ended up with a bidding war and international publication. She was always a powerful and elegant writer in the literary vein, but something she did for fun was picked up. Be DAMN good. Know the market and the Zeitgeist so you have a product that everyone wants and you can get a contract.

She's a savvy writer and a great example to us all.