I am in danger of turning 'Intuitive Editing' into my little Red Book.

[Pamela Jo]

Not that Tiffany Yates Martin resembles Mao in any way. But here's her latest post. The Main Writing Skill You May Be Neglecting. On topic I've been mulling stakes. I see people with dire stakes ...like being burned at the aforementioned. My stakes seem to get lost though I think they are as dire. To die alone and unloved or to actually find the kind of friend that would risk their life to bring me food and water if the Russians invaded. (seriously this always touches me in the stories out of the Ukraine. I can't imagine many neighbours doing this in the American suburbs, though I can in the world my grandparents inhabited.) Does anyone have examples of how to make less dire stakes clear to the reader. I can't think of one at the moment. In a romance aren't the stakes" Is this love real?" "Will it last?" I've never written a romance so I'm legitimately asking the Q of those who know the genre. Is it just will they, won't they have sex? Any other examples of defining non lethal stakes, that are gripping?

 

[izi 出久]

Are you writing a romance? I hadn't realized your book was a romance.... Exciting!

Some stakes / questions the MC has that can lead to stakes:

-Will my family approve? Do I have to choose between my happiness and theirs?
-Uncertainty of love vs. desire. Is this a passing fling?
-Is this a healthy relationship? Do I have to change who I am to be loved? Will I be accepted if he/she discovers X?

I'll probably think of more, but just rattling these ones off for now

 

[MattScho]

Not that Tiffany Yates Martin resembles Mao in any way. But here's her latest post. The Main Writing Skill You May Be Neglecting. On topic I've been mulling stakes. I see people with dire stakes ...like being burned at the aforementioned. My stakes seem to get lost though I think they are as dire. To die alone and unloved or to actually find the kind of friend that would risk their life to bring me food and water if the Russians invaded. (seriously this always touches me in the stories out of the Ukraine. I can't imagine many neighbours doing this in the American suburbs, though I can in the world my grandparents inhabited.) Does anyone have examples of how to make less dire stakes clear to the reader. I can't think of one at the moment. In a romance aren't the stakes" Is this love real?" "Will it last?" I've never written a romance so I'm legitimately asking the Q of those who know the genre. Is it just will they, won't they have sex? Any other examples of defining non lethal stakes, that are gripping?

Okay, because we forget this, I suggest returning to news writing 101 (of the mind). When we start out, we are told to find a story. We think, I need a story. Nuclear war, now that's a story. But I don't have a nuclear war to write about. Damn. I don't have a story to write.
But then some pompous prof starts talking about onions (back before Shrek nailed this lesson down for us), and has us look at images from deep space, capturing the entirety of the solar system, and images from an electron microscope, capturing what looks like the same thing from a single cell, and after getting stoned and saying "whoaaah" a lot, we realize that we have always had the scope we need inside us (whoooah). I'm thinking back to one of the last decent pieces of journalism I managed. I was writing about Chernobyl, but nuclear annilation is too much to capture in a story, so I focused on one guy, and his desperate search for the perfect childhood he lost when the reactor went critical.
I thought it worked because his story was kind of universal, minus the heavy radiation and mom's hair falling out.
The hurdles we face when finding love include those you've talked about, and Stacey mentioned others.
I think the desire for a friend who would risk themsleves for us, and for whom we would risk ourslves is a brilliant one, btw.
But, deep down, there are others and the stakes of the heart are crazy high.
Some universal, emotional truths:
Do I deserve love?
How could anyone ever love me?
Can I survive the pain of this love ending? Is it worth beginning?
Is love even an answer? Is love all we need?
Was Danny's song bullshit?
And, of course, who, exactly, who wrote the book of love?

 

[Hannah F]

Most romance stories follow a trope-ark: woman/man/other somehow bumps into/finds man/woman/other . . . relationship develops or they keep swerving around each other while in other unsatisfactory relationships or thinking they can manage with no relationship at all . . . calamity happens that separates them (could be physical, could be emotional) . . . while tackling obstacles, usually not actually related to the romance, they find that they need each other and save each other (physically maybe, emotionally definitely). Now emotionally saved, they might part and head off to two different sunsets (which is where I think Killing Eve should have ended - on that bridge. Fleabag had it perfect). There might and often is sex along the way, but that's not the stakes. The stakes seems always to be, without each other (at least for now) they cannot overcome x or y or z.
Far From the Madding Crowd imo is one of the best romances ever written.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Are you writing a romance? I hadn't realized your book was a romance.... Exciting!

Some stakes / questions the MC has that can lead to stakes:

-Will my family approve? Do I have to choose between my happiness and theirs?
-Uncertainty of love vs. desire. Is this a passing fling?
-Is this a healthy relationship? Do I have to change who I am to be loved? Will I be accepted if he/she discovers X?

I'll probably think of more, but just rattling these ones off for now

Yes my sequel is about love, all kinds of love and so consequently romance comes into it. And yes romance over 50. As people grow older they become more isolated. Grown kids may call once a week. Fine. But the rest of the week who loves them? If you realise you've never had passion before because you get a taste of it, isn't it stakes to think that you have to now live without it? Isn't it high stakes to lose love and romance from your life? Isn't it unendurable to return to God's waiting room alone? I mean in writing about people past 50 the death thing is like the sword hanging over their heads. The question is just when and how. My problem is getting those stakes across to the reader. I always assume the stakes are self-evident, but they aren't.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Okay, because we forget this, I suggest returning to news writing 101 (of the mind). When we start out, we are told to find a story. We think, I need a story. Nuclear war, now that's a story. But I don't have a nuclear war to write about. Damn. I don't have a story to write.
But then some pompous prof starts talking about onions (back before Shrek nailed this lesson down for us), and has us look at images from deep space, capturing the entirety of the solar system, and images from an electron microscope, capturing what looks like the same thing from a single cell, and after getting stoned and saying "whoaaah" a lot, we realize that we have always had the scope we need inside us (whoooah). I'm thinking back to one of the last decent pieces of journalism I managed. I was writing about Chernobyl, but nuclear annilation is too much to capture in a story, so I focused on one guy, and his desperate search for the perfect childhood he lost when the reactor went critical.
I thought it worked because his story was kind of universal, minus the heavy radiation and mom's hair falling out.
The hurdles we face when finding love include those you've talked about, and Stacey mentioned others.
I think the desire for a friend who would risk themsleves for us, and for whom we would risk ourslves is a brilliant one, btw.
But, deep down, there are others and the stakes of the heart are crazy high.
Some universal, emotional truths:
Do I deserve love?
How could anyone ever love me?
Can I survive the pain of this love ending? Is it worth beginning?
Is love even an answer? Is love all we need?
Was Danny's song bullshit?
And, of course, who, exactly, who wrote the book of love?

Sounds like a brilliant piece. No wonder you're proud of it. Your advice to go back to journo 101 reminded me of something from the required advertising classes. (It was an embarrassment in those days to be good at advertising.) One of the principles drummed into us was that you have to repeat something at least 3 times if you want people to remember it. So it's getting through to me I'm definitely not doing that with stakes. I think they are self-evident. Nobody else sees them. So do I have my character come right out and say them? Why does that seem so shocking to me? Gack!
As to who wrote the book of love? I think that was Mignon Mclaughlin

“The head never rules the heart, but just becomes its partner in crime.”​

“Hate leaves ugly scars, love leaves beautiful ones.”

“A successful marriage requires falling in love many times -- always with the same person.”

“The hardest learned lesson: that people have only their kind of love to give, not our kind.”

 

[izi 出久]

Isn't it high stakes to lose love and romance from your life? Isn't it unendurable to return to God's waiting room alone? I mean in writing about people past 50 the death thing is like the sword hanging over their heads.

Reminds me not of the book title or author (I've spent too much time trying to remember already), but of a story I read back in my lit degree when I was reading a book a week for each literature class (one semester I had three), and the story starts with this white collar guy who has passed his prime and the omni narrator notes he had already done all the remarkable things he would do in life, but he didn't know it yet. So I think these are good stakes. I suppose it becomes how you present the stakes and how the characters react to them and how much (if at all) the characters are aware of them.

 

[RK Wallis]

I'm off to bed, but I thought you might find this link useful: Love Genre: Stories About Obsession, Courtship and Marriage

 

[Pamela Jo]

Reminds me not of the book title or author (I've spent too much time trying to remember already), but of a story I read back in my lit degree when I was reading a book a week for each literature class (one semester I had three), and the story starts with this white collar guy who has passed his prime and the omni narrator notes he had already done all the remarkable things he would do in life, but he didn't know it yet. So I think these are good stakes. I suppose it becomes how you present the stakes and how the characters react to them and how much (if at all) the characters are aware of them.

Reminds me of John Cleese in Clockwise. He basically says this is it mate. It's all downhill from here. But I think anyone at any age who thinks that way is going to fulfil that. I'm coming more from how most people I know think. "I'll live til I die." Yeah, presenting the stakes etc. ARGGGHHHH.

 

[MattScho]

Reminds me of John Cleese in Clockwise. He basically says this is it mate. It's all downhill from here. But I think anyone at any age who thinks that way is going to fulfil that. I'm coming more from how most people I know think. "I'll live til I die." Yeah, presenting the stakes etc. ARGGGHHHH.

Ah, you're a rambler, you're a gambler, you're a long ways from home, are ya?

 

[Hannah F]

Yes my sequel is about love, all kinds of love and so consequently romance comes into it. And yes romance over 50. As people grow older they become more isolated. Grown kids may call once a week. Fine. But the rest of the week who loves them? If you realise you've never had passion before because you get a taste of it, isn't it stakes to think that you have to now live without it? Isn't it high stakes to lose love and romance from your life? Isn't it unendurable to return to God's waiting room alone? I mean in writing about people past 50 the death thing is like the sword hanging over their heads. The question is just when and how. My problem is getting those stakes across to the reader. I always assume the stakes are self-evident, but they aren't.

I am over 50. I have had passion. Plenty of it. Not all good. I don't dwell on the thought of death - I feel young. I don't yearn for another love. I have good friends (without benefits) and I like my independence and I like being alone. I'm perfectly happy to return to the soil one day without finding another love-life to complicate things. I get annoyed when people assume you need or want a partner, and I know others with similar views. Just throwing that out there because, no, solitude can be very happily endurable and age is just a number. The sword is above every human being's head. It doesn't choose you by age (unless you get to live to over 90).

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Not that Tiffany Yates Martin resembles Mao in any way. But here's her latest post. The Main Writing Skill You May Be Neglecting. On topic I've been mulling stakes. I see people with dire stakes ...like being burned at the aforementioned. My stakes seem to get lost though I think they are as dire. To die alone and unloved or to actually find the kind of friend that would risk their life to bring me food and water if the Russians invaded. (seriously this always touches me in the stories out of the Ukraine. I can't imagine many neighbours doing this in the American suburbs, though I can in the world my grandparents inhabited.) Does anyone have examples of how to make less dire stakes clear to the reader. I can't think of one at the moment. In a romance aren't the stakes" Is this love real?" "Will it last?" I've never written a romance so I'm legitimately asking the Q of those who know the genre. Is it just will they, won't they have sex? Any other examples of defining non lethal stakes, that are gripping?

Interesting. I read her article and thought back to when the pandemic began. I had mixed feelings. My first reaction was that I now had an unassailable reason for staying home to write and read. My second reaction was that with Trump in power, people would die. Both were correct. I have had a lot of time for writing and reading, and over one million Americans have died of COVID-19. Even though the pandemic seems to be ending, and I am totally vaccinated, I stay isolated, especially after two people I know came down with it even though they were vaccinated and boosted. The upside is definitely more time to write, more time to read, and more time to reflect.

About the stakes issue, Ernest Hemingway wrote a beautiful short story called "Now I Lay Me" about a man with what we now call PTSD dealing with insomnia from war-time trauma. If you read it literally, then it's about insomnia. If you read deeper, it's about the feeling the reader gets thinking about having such a state of mind. It's about how we all live with deep fears that haunt our sleep.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I'm off to bed, but I thought you might find this link useful: Love Genre: Stories About Obsession, Courtship and Marriage

Thanks! I subscribed to their blog. You have a wealth of wisdom about writing. Thank you for sharing!

 

[RK Wallis]

Thanks! I subscribed to their blog. You have a wealth of wisdom about writing. Thank you for sharing!

Thanks! You're welcome

 

[Mel L]

Not that Tiffany Yates Martin resembles Mao in any way. But here's her latest post. The Main Writing Skill You May Be Neglecting. On topic I've been mulling stakes. I see people with dire stakes ...like being burned at the aforementioned. My stakes seem to get lost though I think they are as dire. To die alone and unloved or to actually find the kind of friend that would risk their life to bring me food and water if the Russians invaded. (seriously this always touches me in the stories out of the Ukraine. I can't imagine many neighbours doing this in the American suburbs, though I can in the world my grandparents inhabited.) Does anyone have examples of how to make less dire stakes clear to the reader. I can't think of one at the moment. In a romance aren't the stakes" Is this love real?" "Will it last?" I've never written a romance so I'm legitimately asking the Q of those who know the genre. Is it just will they, won't they have sex? Any other examples of defining non lethal stakes, that are gripping?

I'm with you on that book. So helpful! Just read her chapter on stakes. What works well for me is the way she provides examples from familiar novels so you can really see what she means by 'upping the stakes'. Like torturing your characters a little. Or adding in a ticking clock...

 

[Pamela Jo]

I'm with you on that book. So helpful! Just read her chapter on stakes. What works well for me is the way she provides examples from familiar novels so you can really see what she means by 'upping the stakes'. Like torturing your characters a little. Or adding in a ticking clock...

I liked that, but for me that was more about tension and suspense. I think I'm getting confused about what stakes are.... I'm just thinking consequences now.

 

[Pamela Jo]

I am over 50. I have had passion. Plenty of it. Not all good. I don't dwell on the thought of death - I feel young. I don't yearn for another love. I have good friends (without benefits) and I like my independence and I like being alone. I'm perfectly happy to return to the soil one day without finding another love-life to complicate things. I get annoyed when people assume you need or want a partner, and I know others with similar views. Just throwing that out there because, no, solitude can be very happily endurable and age is just a number. The sword is above every human being's head. It doesn't choose you by age (unless you get to live to over 90).

Most of what I wrote in reply to Stacy was describing my character. But I have to disagree about the sword. Once your parents generation is dead, and you're going to far more funerals of people your age than weddings it is a bit silly to think that your time is unlimited. If you are not aware that this may be the last time you do something or see someone you love you miss out on the perspective and poignancy of aging. Greek drama embraces the understanding of mortality and how it defines humanity. To ignore mortality is to ignore your own humanity. As I said, though, most people I know plan to live til they die. They will not go gentle. That's why I'm writing my stories for them instead of YA.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Ah, you're a rambler, you're a gambler, you're a long ways from home, are ya?

.

 

[MattScho]

Most of what I wrote in reply to Stacy was describing my character. But I have to disagree about the sword. Once your parents generation is dead, and you're going to far more funerals of people your age than weddings it is a bit silly to think that your time is unlimited. If you are not aware that this may be the last time you do something or see someone you love you miss out on the perspective and poignancy of aging. Greek drama embraces the understanding of mortality and how it defines humanity. To ignore mortality is to ignore your own humanity. As I said, though, most people I know plan to live til they die. They will not go gentle. That's why I'm writing my stories for them instead of YA.

Absolutely. I've lost just about all of my best friends in the last decade, though it was a death 20 years ago that totally changed my outlook on life.

 

[MattScho]

.

okay, that was fun. I was thinking of this, though:

 

[Hannah F]

Most of what I wrote in reply to Stacy was describing my character. But I have to disagree about the sword. Once your parents generation is dead, and you're going to far more funerals of people your age than weddings it is a bit silly to think that your time is unlimited. If you are not aware that this may be the last time you do something or see someone you love you miss out on the perspective and poignancy of aging. Greek drama embraces the understanding of mortality and how it defines humanity. To ignore mortality is to ignore your own humanity. As I said, though, most people I know plan to live til they die. They will not go gentle. That's why I'm writing my stories for them instead of YA.

I've been to my father's funeral (one week off his 90th birthday), one uncle, one aunt, a friend who was only 30 and died of cancer, a kid in my class who was only 15 and died of leukemia, a kid in my class who was only 13 and died of an asthma attack (never been to a funeral before or since where so many children genuinely wailed - brings tears to my eyes remembering it). Your time is your time. It will hit you when it hits you. Everyone (or so we believe) is mortal and I doubt anyone (except the immortal ones we don't know about) thinks time is unlimited. Everyone will die, but only fate knows when. Living life to the full should not be about what age you are and any age should be allowed to live young if they want to.

 

[Hannah F]

.

I love the muppets!

 

[RK Wallis]

I've been to my father's funeral (one week off his 90th birthday), one uncle, one aunt, a friend who was only 30 and died of cancer, a kid in my class who was only 15 and died of leukemia, a kid in my class who was only 13 and died of an asthma attack (never been to a funeral before or since where so many children genuinely wailed - brings tears to my eyes remembering it). Your time is your time. It will hit you when it hits you. Everyone (or so we believe) is mortal and I doubt anyone (except the immortal ones we don't know about) thinks time is unlimited. Everyone will die, but only fate knows when. Living life to the full should not be about what age you are and any age should be allowed to live young if they want to.

And that's the sad truth. Our time is our time. Spend it well

 

[Serra K]

While people are posting songs, can I squeeze this one in here?



The Pogues are one of my all time favourite bands, and I thank Shane MacGowan for proving that even people with bad teeth can do things. Their poetry (Poguetry) never fails to make me laugh/cry/think deeply about things I would otherwise have passed over etc

 

[Pamela Jo]

Absolutely. I've lost just about all of my best friends in the last decade, though it was a death 20 years ago that totally changed my outlook on life.

I think this is why you rarely see a Goth over a certain age.

 

[Pamela Jo]

While people are posting songs, can I squeeze this one in here?



The Pogues are one of my all time favourite bands, and I thank Shane MacGowan for proving that even people with bad teeth can do things. Their poetry (Poguetry) never fails to make me laugh/cry/think deeply about things I would otherwise have passed over etc

So true about the teeth. Though I still do not understand why Fairytale of New York is the absolute number ONE Christmas song in Ireland. No holiday gathering is complete without it being sung. Just another reminder of how American I will always be. I am convinced there is a bard gene in the Irish DNA. Irish prose leaves me blinking for the most part-but the poetry... As you say.
"never fails to make me laugh/cry/think deeply about things I would otherwise have passed over" Love the Poguetry pun.

 

[Pamela Jo]

I remember singing, ' I'm a Rambler' , in a Shinjuku Irish bar when the Irish rugby team played in Tokyo. Big lads, they kept time by beating on the rafters dislodging 100 year old dust. Yes, very apt. That's why my answer was "know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to haul ass." It's one reason I'm still alive. I made sure my sons could sing the lyrics from a young age. I think you know something about rambling and gambling yourself?

 

[Serra K]

Though I still do not understand why Fairytale of New York is the absolute number ONE Christmas song in Ireland.

This is the only song of theirs I ever learned to play on guitar, and I sing it every year as well. My ancestry is a mixture of Irish and Indigenous Australian, Irish on my father's side, and aboriginal on my mum's. Music from both cultures sends a shiver from deep within the ground all the way through my soul. One day I'll go to Ireland and follow the songlines there, as I've done here in Australia.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Since this has turned into a song fest. I have to share these young lads singing in Gaelic. The kids are alright.

 

[Serra K]

Since this has turned into a song fest. I have to share these young lads singing in Gaelic. The kids are alright.

Cue shivers