Editing

[Steve C]

I have read time and time again that we should not submit our work to agents until it has been knocked into shape and professionally edited. The thing is who are these editors who perform such tasks. Is it true we need to pay for such a service or should we submit and hope for the best? I would welcome some advice and referrals if there are any out there.

 

[Carol Rose]

As you may have noted from a recent thread, there are two schools of thought. Neither one is right or wrong. It all depends on how comfortable you are as a writer, and what your ultimate goals are.

I wrote a Writing Wiki post a while ago on how to choose an editor that might help to answer your questions.

@Island Writer is a member here and a professional editor. You can contact her privately if interested in discussing editing with her.

 

[Steve C]

As you may have noted from a recent thread, there are two schools of thought. Neither one is right or wrong. It all depends on how comfortable you are as a writer, and what your ultimate goals are.

I wrote a Writing Wiki post a while ago on how to choose an editor that might help to answer your questions.

@Island Writer is a member here and a professional editor. You can contact her privately if interested in discussing editing with her.

Thanks, Carol. Somehow I missed that thread. (the underlined one above) It has a great discussion but for some reason, I cannot join it. There is a message at the bottom saying I have insufficient privileges to do so. Has it been closed I wonder?

 

[Carol Rose]

Thanks, Carol. Somehow I missed that thread. (the underlined one above) It has a great discussion but for some reason, I cannot join it. There is a message at the bottom saying I have insufficient privileges to do so. Has it been closed I wonder?

It’s been moved to Writing Wiki which is a read-only forum. Once a quarter, or more often if I have time, I move threads there that contain industry knowledge I’d like to preserve for everyone, but only after the discussion in the original thread has run its course. If someone wants to discuss the subject again, they’re certainly free to start another thread, just as you have done.

 

[RK Wallis]

Hey @Steve C, I thought you'd in interested in this, it's an agent's opinion about editing and traditional publishing. She's one of the agents I've personally been watching because she may be a fit:

It's a long vlog, so watch at 23:25:

 

[Frank Prem]

I have read time and time again that we should not submit our work to agents until it has been knocked into shape and professionally edited. The thing is who are these editors who perform such tasks. Is it true we need to pay for such a service or should we submit and hope for the best? I would welcome some advice and referrals if there are any out there.

Can't disagree with what has been said, but add that it is essential to have beta reader eyes external to your own go over the MS. Someone who can ensure you have your grammar right, someone to ensure you have your sequencing rigth, someone to ensure your story flows.

All instinctive to the writer until he/she goes astray without entirely realizing it.

In my case, there's no point pitching to agents. No marketable market exists for poetry, so no agent interest, sadly.

 

[Steve C]

Someone who can ensure you have your grammar right, someone to ensure you have your sequencing rigth, someone to ensure your story flows.

I think this is an editor rather than a beta reader and I am looking at using a paid one rather than a freebie. At my stage, I think I need a professional eye. It maybe I don't feel that way on my second or third book but for my first, I view it as part of my education and expect to learn a lot from the process.

 

[RK Wallis]

If you want to go paid and it's your first intro to an editor, start with a developmental editor, but before you do, I recommend you listen to that whole video, they recommend critique partners and beta readers before any professional. They explain why. But, in the end, you should only go on the journey that suits you.

 

[Frank Prem]

I think this is an editor rather than a beta reader and I am looking at using a paid one rather than a freebie. At my stage, I think I need a professional eye. It maybe I don't feel that way on my second or third book but for my first, I view it as part of my education and expect to learn a lot from the process.

I t depends on how you're doing it. Some Betas do that job,or contribute to it.

Myself, I've used a paid editor for my first collections and will likely go with unpaid for my next. I have a better sense of what is needed and what can be achieved.

 

[E G Logan]

Speaking with my editor hat on -- no, not touting for business -- I think it's important that you get the manuscript into reasonable shape before you look for a professional. This is where beta readers/writing groups come in.

If it's still rough, two things are possible.
1. Editors may turn it down, say they have a waiting list, whatever... but basically not want to take it on.
2A. Less scrupulous, less competent editors may grab it, do very little, send you a bill, and the end result may still be rough.
Or 2B. Less scrupulous editors may grab it because they see it needs a LOT of work and this could be their Christmas come early.

I recommend Carol Rose's Writing Wiki.
In general, terminology varies between US and British English, particularly about editors and how their role is described. If in doubt, come back to me or maybe Carol can help.

 

[Steve C]

I sometimes wonder who the editors who work with agents and publishers are. If they are so good at writing why don't they write rather than edit others writing. It seems a weird thing to do full time. Is it because they can't write but can only find fault with others writing? Can an editor edit their own work or are they too close to it? That said should it be a prerequisite when looking for an editor they be traditionally published?

 

[CageSage]

write rather than edit

In one of my many lives, I did tech editing for purposes as widely varied as building codes, engineering, data dictionary in IT infrastructure, security, etc.
It's not that I know about those things, but that I can edit those documents so they make sense to the intended reader.
The logic of the above comment implies that I'd need to be a builder, engineer, etc. to be able to do my job properly.
I have no problem with other people working to edit my pieces - I want the work to be the best it can be, and that takes eyes and minds that understand what lies behind the purpose of the piece, and the intended audience.
It's not a matter of finding fault, more of finding depth and meaning.

My two bob's worth.

 

[E G Logan]

I sometimes wonder who the editors who work with agents and publishers are. If they are so good at writing why don't they write rather than edit others writing. It seems a weird thing to do full time. Is it because they can't write but can only find fault with others writing? Can an editor edit their own work or are they too close to it? That said should it be a prerequisite when looking for an editor they be traditionally published?

I don't do it full time -- and I'm mostly an academic editor for a university -- and I write the rest of the time. Hence I am here.
I am a published author of non-fiction, but what I am doing now is fiction. (I don't get paid for that.)
Obviously, though, I can't speak for anyone else! And I am NOT volunteering myself for work.

 

[Carol Rose]

The editors I've had with both my publishers are mixed in terms of also being authors. Truthfully, I never saw a difference between those who only edit, and those who both write and edit, in terms of their skill level. Editing is an entirely different skill set than writing, and some people easily separate the two. I've had editors who don't write miss things as often as editors who also write miss them, and vice versa. Editing is a skill that some people are very good at, and some are not. Just like anything else.

 

[RK Wallis]

And I would have thought editing is a very different skillset to writing...

 

[Carol Rose]

It is, but that doesn’t mean someone can’t be good at both. Woodworking, for example, is an entirely different skill than playing a musical instrument, but someone can do both and be good at them.

 

[Steve C]

For sure they are different skills but an editor supposedly improves a book. If they have not written a book how can they make other books better. To be a football coach you need to have played the game. Having said that Jurgen Klopp is a brilliant manager (of Liverpool FC) but was an average player but he did play. It may not be a prerequisite for an author to have editing skills but I would rather employ an editor who had writing skills and a book or two to prove it.

 

[RK Wallis]

They study it in college. But @E G Logan can clarify this.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I think of hiring a developmental editor as getting my own personalised writing workshop, focused precisely on those things I do poorly. Always worth the money. That said, I choose a different developmental editor each time, because they see different things. Copy editing and proofreading, I stick with the same editor if I can, because those nit-picky things can be down to style, and I want an editor who has the same style I do.

 

[E G Logan]

They study it in college. But @E G Logan can clarify this.

Not in the UK, they don't. I get by with many years' experience, too many to specify.

 

[Carol Rose]

Not in the US either. They might be English majors at college, but it’s not required. There is no formal training program to become an editor.

 

[CageSage]

Part of my degree (Australia) included two semesters of editing subjects (tech and business). One year later, the subjects were dropped, but some technical colleges still have the subjects.

However, it took several years under the wing of a master editor before I was allowed to slice and dice without supervision.

 

[RK Wallis]

Sorry, I thought that because of this. At 35:36:



Must just depend.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Interesting. I'm pretty sure there is an editing certification here within our NZQA (New Zealand Qualifications Authority) system. Haven't done it myself, but I seem to recall a colleague doing it.

 

[Carol Rose]

Part of my degree (Australia) included two semesters of editing subjects (tech and business). One year later, the subjects were dropped, but some technical colleges still have the subjects.

However, it took several years under the wing of a master editor before I was allowed to slice and dice without supervision.

It's my understanding any editors in large publishers, at least here in the US, have years as an intern and being supervised by more experienced editors before they are given manuscripts of their own to work on. That's at large publishers, though. At digital first publishers, like the two I'm with, they tend to hire freelance editors who don't necessarily have any formal training. Instead, they are "tried out" on a few manuscripts and if the publishers and perhaps her/his more experienced editors feel the candidate knows what she's/he's doing, they hire her/him. I know. Cringeworthy. And at times it is. Which is why I would never discourage anyone from seeking out an editor on their own.

 

[Carol Rose]

Sorry, I thought that because of this. At 35:36:



Must just depend.

Found this, if it helps, but again, these majors are not specific to editing. They are related by field only.

Degrees in Editing

 

[RK Wallis]

Say's this on her website: 'Graduate of Emerson College: BA in Writing, Literature, & Publishing.' Now I'm thinking the show Community College, lol

 

[Carol Rose]

Say's this on her website: 'Graduate of Emerson College: BA in Writing, Literature, & Publishing.' Now I'm thinking the show Community College, lol

It's not specific only to editing: Writing, Literature & Publishing, but at least it's a related field. I'd have a better time taking someone seriously as an editor, and taking editing advice from them, if they had this kind of background behind them.