Fanfare! WHY I LOVE FEEDBACK

[Vagabond Heart]

Here’s the thing.
There’s been a lot of chat about feedback recently, and I’ve come to realise that what I hear in my head just might not be the same thing as everyone else hears.
So, I wanted to chat about it with you.
Because when I’m offered feedback, I hear two things: -

‘Your work is worth spending my time and attention on,’ and, ‘I think you are under-using your talent and I’m absolutely certain you can do better.’

Basically, I hear someone complimenting me.

And the stronger the feedback is, the more of a compliment it seems (you think I’m sooo much more talented than this work currently shows, and you’re sure I can do way, way, WAY better).

Obviously, I didn’t hear this the first time I got it.
No, the first time someone said my precious, blood-sweat-and-tears baby was anything less than prefect my soul took a minor (but temporary) crushing.
But this was when I was 53 and had finally made it to university.

I learned very quickly that critiquing was how it was done. I simply had to get used to it.
So, I took lots of big-girl pills, drank copious amounts of coffee, learnt how to really get the most out of a 2-4-1 cocktail happy hour, and went back to the drawing board. Over and over again.

Gradually, I started to unravel what they were saying to me in the feedback sessions (cos I know it was in Klingon at the start), and my work slowly became significantly less crap.

Then I started to notice something fairly important – feedback varied depending on who it was being given to.
Not from the teachers – it was their job to give us all the help they could shove on us.
But as a group, giving our fellow students critiques, I noticed a tendency to give less and less feedback to people who showed no desire to follow it or learn from it.
The group started to lose its willingness to invest in people who showed they didn’t want to know.

That’s when I realised this: someone putting effort into helping me improve my work is a massive compliment!
It means they think I’ll listen. It means they think I’ll progress.
It means they see what I’m doing as being worth their investment, both in time and attention.
Why would I not want that?

And then I saw another thing happening in our group.
Those students who were receptive to feedback found their work improving way beyond their own expectations.
We would often say to each other, ‘I didn’t know I could do that,’ with a mixture of pride, and awe, and frank astonishment.

After each critiquing session there’d be a period of assimilating the information (ok, first there’d be the moaning and the agonising self-doubt over the 2-4-1 cocktails, but then there’d be the assimilation). And I’d watch everyone’s work take extraordinary leaps forward. Even my own.

That’s when I understood the second thing: when others push me, it’s because they believe I have what it takes to do more. Compliment.
They see a seed of potential that I don’t even know is there yet. They see how much further I can go, and what’s more, they want me to get there. Double compliment.
And the harder they push me – the stronger the feedback – the higher they see me being able to go. Oh, hell yeah, baby.

So, yes, I love feedback. I love giving it and I love receiving it.
I am delighted when someone wants to invest in me. And I am honoured when someone allows me to invest in them.

At 53, I may have been a bit long in the tooth to have started this writing journey, but the more I’ve opened myself to critique in these last 10 years, the quicker I’ve progressed.

So, bring it on, all you lovely Litopians. You’ve helped me so much already, but I’ve still got a lot of catching up to do.
Much gratitude and big hugs all round. x

 

[Hannah F]

I also think, for the receiver, it's important to read and percolate. Don't act on or dismiss feedback straightaway. Your brain (at least mine and I think most people's) needs time to absorb and process the critique. Bits you don't initially like may just be your ego desiring you to dislike and keep what you've worked so hard to produce. Wisdom needs time to hack through the ego-bush. Give it time. (And by all means have a cocktail while you wait.)

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Yes! I agree wholeheartedly. Brutal feedback ends up being the best thing ever (once you've stewed on it for a while and given the ego a boot). I am always so grateful for the folks who take the time to provide feedback--absolute legends!

As a teacher, I always tell my students at the beginning of the year that I will be really hard on their writing--they'll get heaps of feedback from me and it won't always be complimentary, but I give it because I know they are amazing writers and I want to see the best they can do.

 

[SarahC]

Yes! Love this.

Feedback is how I am learning to write as someone who can only learn by doing.

I love getting feedback - every time I learn something I had no idea of before. The biggest lesson I've learned is to not be precious about my own writing/ideas. At the beginning I had this fear that my imagination was finite and I would never have another idea again, but to my happy surprise that is rubbish.

Every time I delete something, the next thing is better, and the only reason it is better is feedback and critique. I also enjoy giving feedback and critique - I've done a serious amount of learning that way as well - it trains the objective eye which I'm slowly learning to apply to my own stuff.

I love being a beginner at anything - it's a very expansive feeling.

 

[James Charles]

Ditto. Feedback (the good, bad and ugly) only makes our writing stronger. It hurts sometimes when it's harsh, but fasten your seatbelt. We're in for a bumpy ride.

 

[RK Wallis]

People who take the time to give feedback that forces me to consider how I can clarify my WIP are legends Full stop.

 

[Pamela Jo]

OBVIOUSLY BEV IS BRILLIANT.
And she has evolved a brilliant attitude. I love that way of thinking about being critiqued. But I am going to throw in some ballast.

This only works if you know you can trust those doing the critiquing. I am coming from a place where I was completely open to critique and it all went do-lally. People commenting on my work had agendas. If I had followed their advice I would have jettisoned the story that is now short-listed. The voice they encouraged was wrong for me. The things they told me about crafting a novel were wrong for what I was trying to do. By the time I got here I was a confused cat. I am very lucky to have discovered Litopia from someone in that group, but I am no longer interested in anyone from that group reading anything of mine.

It was listening to this book, Peak., that helped me to clarify what I need in feedback. Amazon product ASIN 0544456238. The part about learning the violin, which is incredibly complex, spoke to me. The researchers say if you practice wo a teacher you never improve-because you never hear the note played correctly. Even more important though is that the master you learn from has stood where you are. They can analyse whether you are breathing wrong, or the sound is dull because of your stance. They can tell you how to correct the stance how to modulate your breath. This is obviously easy when you are a beginner. The better the acolyte becomes-the harder the job the master has. But one problem with the group I was with is that everyone was following the master.
For me when I give feedback I try to stay in my reader head as much as possible. That is the best mirror I can give someone. I cannot see or hear what is in the writer's head, the story that they want to get on paper. I cannot tell them how to achieve that. I am no master. But I can say this is what you showed me. This is what I got. This is what I would have liked to have gotten. That is what helps me the most when I receive it.

 

[RK Wallis]

OBVIOUSLY BEV IS BRILLIANT.
And she has evolved a brilliant attitude. I love that way of thinking about being critiqued. But I am going to throw in some ballast.

This only works if you know you can trust those doing the critiquing. I am coming from a place where I was completely open to critique and it all went do-lally. People commenting on my work had agendas. If I had followed their advice I would have jettisoned the story that is now short-listed. The voice they encouraged was wrong for me. The things they told me about crafting a novel were wrong for what I was trying to do. By the time I got here I was a confused cat. I am very lucky to have discovered Litopia from someone in that group, but I am no longer interested in anyone from that group reading anything of mine.

It was listening to this book, Peak., that helped me to clarify what I need in feedback. Amazon product ASIN 0544456238. The part about learning the violin, which is incredibly complex, spoke to me. The researchers say if you practice wo a teacher you never improve-because you never hear the note played correctly. Even more important though is that the master you learn from has stood where you are. They can analyse whether you are breathing wrong, or the sound is dull because of your stance. They can tell you how to correct the stance how to modulate your breath. This is obviously easy when you are a beginner. The better the acolyte becomes-the harder the job the master has. But one problem with the group I was with is that everyone was following the master.
For me when I give feedback I try to stay in my reader head as much as possible. That is the best mirror I can give someone. I cannot see or hear what is in the writer's head, the story that they want to get on paper. I cannot tell them how to achieve that. I am no master. But I can say this is what you showed me. This is what I got. This is what I would have liked to have gotten. That is what helps me the most when I receive it.

So true. If critiquers have agendas. If critiquers don't have improving your WIP at heart. Those people you don't listen to.

A good way to ensure agendas don't affect a WIP is to apply the Litopia method of critiquing. I found using this method a real change of mindset and I still have lapses. For instance, it is so tempting to correct grammar. But, no. I have to stop myself. I have to think about the story. Why is the grammar confusing me? Can I pose my confusion as a question? It's not my place to teach a writer grammar. I am not a teacher. It's a writer's job to go and learn grammar and if they don't want to apply grammar (once they understand why they don't want to apply it), it's their choice. Their voice. And if I point-blank correct grammar without posing a question, I'm letting my ego interfere with the story and I don't want that to happen. I want to help the story shine.

 

[Pamela Jo]

So true. If critiquers have agendas. If critiquers don't have improving your WIP at heart. Those people you don't listen to.

A good way to ensure agendas don't affect a WIP is to apply the Litopia method of critiquing. I found using this method a real change of mindset and I still have lapses. For instance, it is so tempting to correct grammar. But, no. I have to stop myself. I have to think about the story. Why is the grammar confusing me? Can I pose my confusion as a question? It's not my place to teach a writer grammar. I am not a teacher. It's a writer's job to go and learn grammar and if they don't want to apply grammar (once they understand why they don't want to apply it), it's their choice. Their voice. And if I point-blank correct grammar without posing a question, I'm letting my ego interfere with the story and I don't want that to happen. I want to help the story shine.

This is my beef with creative writing classes. I think what is "good" or "bad" writing becomes what gets a good grade. The grade is determined by the teacher. Therefore you are writing to please the teacher. As in the group I went to before this. Can you imagine the problem writers from other cultures have trying to find and keep an authentic voice. It's hard enough for me and I'm a native speaker.

 

[Dorm Ant]

I was once gifted a submission package critique by a choice of agents, arranged by a different writing group. The idea was to submit cover letter, synopsis and first three, then a month later have a 15 minute feedback phone call. I chose an agent who had a particular liking for YA, as I had recently edited my manuscript to make it YA.

The feedback was worse than useless. I was told "male led stories don't sell" and that I needed to make edits that, quite frankly, would have removed the USP of my stories (the animal rescue theme). I ignored the advice. I stick to getting feedback on here, now. I still wonder sometimes whether that agent was a bloodsports enthusiast.

 

[Pamela Jo]

I was once gifted a submission package critique by a choice of agents, arranged by a different writing group. The idea was to submit cover letter, synopsis and first three, then a month later have a 15 minute feedback phone call. I chose an agent who had a particular liking for YA, as I had recently edited my manuscript to make it YA.

The feedback was worse than useless. I was told "male led stories don't sell" and that I needed to make edits that, quite frankly, would have removed the USP of my stories (the animal rescue theme). I ignored the advice. I stick to getting feedback on here, now. I still wonder sometimes whether that agent was a bloodsports enthusiast.

Could be. Or could have just narrowed their perspective to a specific type of story they had a buyer for. Not all agents have the breadth and skills of Pete let alone the dedication to good writing.

 

[Hannah F]

I was once gifted a submission package critique by a choice of agents, arranged by a different writing group. The idea was to submit cover letter, synopsis and first three, then a month later have a 15 minute feedback phone call. I chose an agent who had a particular liking for YA, as I had recently edited my manuscript to make it YA.

The feedback was worse than useless. I was told "male led stories don't sell" and that I needed to make edits that, quite frankly, would have removed the USP of my stories (the animal rescue theme). I ignored the advice. I stick to getting feedback on here, now. I still wonder sometimes whether that agent was a bloodsports enthusiast.

Huh! The majority of YA novels are female led and written by females, but male led ones do sell. In fact, there are a good many male-led MGs and not enough male-led YAs. The agent should have been encouraging you to fill that gap in the market!

 

[Pamela Jo]

I was once gifted a submission package critique by a choice of agents, arranged by a different writing group. The idea was to submit cover letter, synopsis and first three, then a month later have a 15 minute feedback phone call. I chose an agent who had a particular liking for YA, as I had recently edited my manuscript to make it YA.

The feedback was worse than useless. I was told "male led stories don't sell" and that I needed to make edits that, quite frankly, would have removed the USP of my stories (the animal rescue theme). I ignored the advice. I stick to getting feedback on here, now. I still wonder sometimes whether that agent was a bloodsports enthusiast.

SOOOOOO. Harry Potter should have been Mary Potter?