Reality Check What makes a good story?

Jonny

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Jake E

Jake E

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Apr 6, 2020
England
A question I've been wrestling with for many years, and still don't have an answer that feels satisfying.

Put aside thoughts of craft and technique, of the nuts and bolts of writing, and consider 'the story'.

What makes a good story?
I've written several ok stories, and many damn right awful ones, but none I would consider good. There's always something wrong with them, be that a character that just doesn't shine as brightly as they should, or a plot that doesn't work as well on paper as it did in my head.
It doesn't seem to matter how carefully i outline, or how well I write, the stories I create are simply not good. They are ok at best. Not awful. Just... Ok.

So what makes a good story? How do I push it over the net? What am I missing?

J
 
Resonance. You've got to haunt your reader. A great book, like a great movie comes down to a few key words, moments or scenes, that haunt us. Because you went down to Hades and fetched something back up again, that came from something that is deep down in you, which means it came from deep down in the well of the ancient collective unconscious. And the reader recognizes it right away. It's primal, not intellectual. Save that for the editing.

Your mother can't be with you any more- Bambi
Farewell my Queen, My Wife, My love- 300
 
Katie-Ellen said:
Resonance. You've got to haunt your reader. A great book, like a great movie comes down to a few key words, moments or scenes, that haunt us. Because you went down to Hades and fetched something back up again, that came from something that is deep down in you, which means it came from deep down in the well of the ancient collective unconscious. And the reader recognizes it right away. It's primal, not intellectual. Save that for the editing.

Your mother can't be with you any more- Bambi
Farewell my Queen, My Wife, My love- 300
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Totally, completely, forever THIS above. Perfectly expressed story wisdom. That's why I always listen to the wonderful Katie.
 
I was thinking about this a few weeks ago actually. Thinking about books that seem to capture the collective imagination but aren't the best writing and in some cases are more hole than plot. Thinking generally about those classic stories that span generations.

@Katie-Ellen hits the nail on the head. We have to capture some common denominator of human experience at a soul level. (easy enough, surely :D ) Love, desire, fear, angst, growing up, growing old - the interplay of those things between humans.

Why do we read? If we can figure out what compels us to fiction we can begin to understand the ingredients required to create it.
Our fiction addiction: Why humans need stories

It's a really interesting question that I shall be pondering on the rest of the day I'm sure.
 
I think being able to 'identify' with the characters you have in your story/journey is very important. It's why we have genres, the genre appeals to particular age groups/demographics.

A story about teenage vampires having an identity crisis will appeal to a particular genre.
A story about a financial crash that leads to a middle age man to question his status in life -- by deciding to become a novelist would DEFO appeal to me.

A good story just lets you 'forget the here and now'
 
Jake E said:
A question I've been wrestling with for many years, and still don't have an answer that feels satisfying.

Put aside thoughts of craft and technique, of the nuts and bolts of writing, and consider 'the story'.

What makes a good story?
I've written several ok stories, and many damn right awful ones, but none I would consider good. There's always something wrong with them, be that a character that just doesn't shine as brightly as they should, or a plot that doesn't work as well on paper as it did in my head.
It doesn't seem to matter how carefully i outline, or how well I write, the stories I create are simply not good. They are ok at best. Not awful. Just... Ok.

So what makes a good story? How do I push it over the net? What am I missing?

J
Click to expand...
That is the perennial question. I tried to read a novel that was published by an imprint, had lots of five star reviews, but I stopped at 100 pages. Bored me, was too much of nothing happening, no story, slow. BUT, because it fit into a category that many agents and publishers are currently looking for (I won't spoil what that is), it got published.
 
James Charles said:
That is the perennial question. I tried to read a novel that was published by an imprint, had lots of five star reviews, but I stopped at 100 pages. Bored me, was too much of nothing happening, no story, slow. BUT, because it fit into a category that many agents and publishers are currently looking for (I won't spoil what that is), it got published.
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This is a major frustration.

I have read books that are beautifully written, but lack any story whatsoever and on the flip side, amazing stories with awful sentence structure that make me put the thing down because the way it's written threatens to give me a stroke.

My personal writing problem is the former. I write well - the odd grammar error creeps in every now and again and i miss some filter words on editing - but on the whole it's pretty solid.
I struggle with the story. I can't seem to write anything that people actually want to read.
But then so do a lot of other authors and they still get published.
It's enough to drive you insane...
...
 
absolutely agree with the above answers.
the best way to know if your intended audience will like your story is to follow the rule "write what you know." if you write for a genre that you read a lot of, you'll be able to see your story from the point of view of the other readers of that genre, if that makes sense.
in my case, i'm an LGBTQ+ teen writing about LGBTQ+ teens, for LGBTQ+ teens. i've got it easy because we're basically a hivemind when it comes to niche interests. we're into fandoms, artsy stuff, going against the norms, which translates to expressive characters, lots of slang in writing, a simple, fast-paced style. if i like my story, the people reading it will like it too.
"write what you know" is my number one rule in writing, and it makes everything a lot easier.
 
Jake E said:
This is a major frustration.

I have read books that are beautifully written, but lack any story whatsoever and on the flip side, amazing stories with awful sentence structure that make me put the thing down because the way it's written threatens to give me a stroke.

My personal writing problem is the former. I write well - the odd grammar error creeps in every now and again and i miss some filter words on editing - but on the whole it's pretty solid.
I struggle with the story. I can't seem to write anything that people actually want to read.
But then so do a lot of other authors and they still get published.
It's enough to drive you insane...
...
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I think my problem is that I have a good story, but not enough emotion, emotion, emotion. So many here keep ripping me for not making them care about my MC. They say, this happens, then that happens, then...
 
The story part of fiction isn't about beautiful writing, or great ideas, or even fascinating characters.
The worst insult I can imagine is: it's beautifully written
- why? Because a good story isn't about being beautifully written. Being beautifully written is the writer showing off, feeling smug about what they've done and how, and it distances the reader from the story by the crowing of a cocky writer.
That's not why people pick up a story to read.
What is it then? It's about the right reader picking it up and getting that connection (resonance, as above, as spake by @Katie-Ellen ).

The best response I can get from a reader is (along the lines of):
She's just like me
That's my problem
I know that feeling
How dare they treat her like that
I'd love to do what she's doing
I wish I could do that
I want to see her overcome this
I hope she gets past this
What would I do in her situation
They'd better not do that again - if it were me, I'd fix 'em
She'd better ... [get, do, become] to get out of this fix.

Notice the difference? It's the reader speaking about the story character's life, problem, or actions. It's the reader's reactions to the problems that the character endures, struggles against, overcomes - as the reader wants to do in their lives (I understand what she's going through, they think). They want to learn how to deal with life through the connection to this character and how the character deals with a problem/s the reader has in their own lives. They want a mirror that shows them what they could be if ... and the safety of doing it through a story, without the same risks or stakes - but with the reminder that the stakes are there in the real world, too.

The best stories are the ones that show the reader what they need to confront in their own lives, and how to take that first tentative step - through the safety net of someone else doing it first (imagining something has the same effect on a brain as the doing of the thing).

Create a connection between character and reader that rings those bells. It may sound easy, but writing a character's emotions isn't the same as writing in a way that makes the reader feel and empathise with the emotions.
For writers, it needs to be method acting in a story, but deeper because we're in the head, heart, body, and soul of the character. It needs to be so much more personal and revealing. In a way, it's running naked down the road in peak hour, and everyone you know is taking note and making fun of every wart, hair, and scar. That's how deep the writing has to be. That's how real it has to be to the reader. The writer has to be prepared to flay themselves bloody to show the truth of the story emotions.
It doesn't matter whether it's a slow start or a jump right into the action. If there's nothing to attach the story to the reader like a tick to their blood-sucking life problem (whether done through subtext or context, resonance or reflection), it's not going to move the reader enough for them to pick it up.
Take off the armoured protections of clothing, society, social stigmas, rules, etc. and make that character in the story be whatever it is that the reader needs in their life right now.

And that's my opinion, one among millions, I'm sure.
 
Katie-Ellen said:
Resonance. You've got to haunt your reader.
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This. I remember some stories I read when I was younger and more imaginative... I would spend weeks and months stuck in the story, long after I'd finished the book. Rehashing scenes, being there with the characters, imagining how they would act in different situations. I suppose being haunted by a story is what leads some to write fan fiction.
 
I agree with everything @CageSage said, about the connection

It's ot about emotive writing. Express with emotive language, emotive scenes that engage feelings in the reader. Ask yourself, what causes a reaction in the reader. The story could be absent, but what's on the page is triggering the reader's buttons.

I've read books where nothing happens, and yet, I couldn't put them down. I'm still trying to find that recipe.
 
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RK Capp introduced me to Tiffany Yates Martin and I still get her definition of story more than any other I've read. Character, plot stakes. But the real hook is a truth that readers recognise. Find that then look for the story.
 
This is a comment on an interview with Terry Pratchett. I think it is his secret and why he will still be read 150 years into the future.
"

Jen B​

3 years ago
This man and his books probably saved my life growing up. I learned so much about the world and people through reading the Discworld books and I feel I'm a better person for it. His work taught me VALUES, MORALS and humour! He taught me that belief is just as powerful as truth, and the worth of a good footnote
 
Yes to all of the above! In heritage interpretation, we talk about linking whatever we're interpreting to universal intangible concepts--triggers that everyone will have an emotional response to--concepts like home, friendship, love, safety. We all have different reactions/emotions associated with these concepts, but they are pretty much guaranteed to evoke emotions. Tweak those emotions and people remember what you've told them.

With that said, we all know you can't resonate with everyone at all times. There are books that have fallen flat for me that have resonated deeply with others. And there are books that have resonated with me at one time in my life and not at others. You've got to know your audience and speak directly to them.
 
Curiosity piqued by other threads on the matter, I asked ChatGPT this question. Here is its answer:

  1. Compelling characters: A good story often features complex and interesting characters that readers can connect with on an emotional level. Characters should be believable, well-developed, and capable of growth and change.
  2. Engaging plot: A good story should have a clear and engaging plot that keeps readers interested and invested in what happens next. The plot should be well-structured and incorporate elements of conflict, tension, and resolution.
  3. Evocative setting: A well-crafted setting can help transport readers to another world and make the story feel more immersive and vivid. The setting should be described in enough detail to help readers visualize it, but not so much detail that it becomes overwhelming.
  4. Narrative tension: Narrative tension is what keeps readers engaged and invested in the story. This can be achieved through the use of conflict, suspense, or mystery.
  5. Emotional resonance: A good story should evoke strong emotions in readers, whether it's joy, sadness, anger, or fear. This emotional resonance is what makes a story memorable and meaningful.
  6. Theme: A good story often explores universal themes that are relevant to readers' lives. These themes can be subtle or overt, but they should provide readers with something to reflect on or learn from
So there you go - make of that what you will. I'll get back to digging my bunker now.
 
SarahC said:
Curiosity piqued by other threads on the matter, I asked ChatGPT this question. Here is its answer:

  1. Compelling characters: A good story often features complex and interesting characters that readers can connect with on an emotional level. Characters should be believable, well-developed, and capable of growth and change.
  2. Engaging plot: A good story should have a clear and engaging plot that keeps readers interested and invested in what happens next. The plot should be well-structured and incorporate elements of conflict, tension, and resolution.
  3. Evocative setting: A well-crafted setting can help transport readers to another world and make the story feel more immersive and vivid. The setting should be described in enough detail to help readers visualize it, but not so much detail that it becomes overwhelming.
  4. Narrative tension: Narrative tension is what keeps readers engaged and invested in the story. This can be achieved through the use of conflict, suspense, or mystery.
  5. Emotional resonance: A good story should evoke strong emotions in readers, whether it's joy, sadness, anger, or fear. This emotional resonance is what makes a story memorable and meaningful.
  6. Theme: A good story often explores universal themes that are relevant to readers' lives. These themes can be subtle or overt, but they should provide readers with something to reflect on or learn from
So there you go - make of that what you will. I'll get back to digging my bunker now.
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Hi SarahC,
I think ChatGPT gave a surprisingly good answer. However, I doubt ChatGPT could fulfill it's own brief in a story or novel.
 
SarahC said:
Curiosity piqued by other threads on the matter, I asked ChatGPT this question. Here is its answer:

  1. Compelling characters: A good story often features complex and interesting characters that readers can connect with on an emotional level. Characters should be believable, well-developed, and capable of growth and change.
  2. Engaging plot: A good story should have a clear and engaging plot that keeps readers interested and invested in what happens next. The plot should be well-structured and incorporate elements of conflict, tension, and resolution.
  3. Evocative setting: A well-crafted setting can help transport readers to another world and make the story feel more immersive and vivid. The setting should be described in enough detail to help readers visualize it, but not so much detail that it becomes overwhelming.
  4. Narrative tension: Narrative tension is what keeps readers engaged and invested in the story. This can be achieved through the use of conflict, suspense, or mystery.
  5. Emotional resonance: A good story should evoke strong emotions in readers, whether it's joy, sadness, anger, or fear. This emotional resonance is what makes a story memorable and meaningful.
  6. Theme: A good story often explores universal themes that are relevant to readers' lives. These themes can be subtle or overt, but they should provide readers with something to reflect on or learn from
So there you go - make of that what you will. I'll get back to digging my bunker now.
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The programmers have fed it good information, possibly plagiarised information.
 
Jake E said:
Having played about with ChatGPT for a bit, I can say we have nothing to fear as authors. There's no... heart to the writing. It's technically sound - most of the time - but it hasn't yet figured out the human element.
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we have nothing to fear-- yet. i agree that AI writing doesn't contain the soul that "real" writing does, but seeing how fast AI has been developing, i say it's only a matter of time. no matter how much creativity and heart one may pour into their work, it can all eventually be whittled down to some sort of algorithm. we probably don't have much time until it's almost impossible to discern between human and machine writing, which honestly freaks me out a LOT.
 
Brooke said:
we have nothing to fear-- yet. i agree that AI writing doesn't contain the soul that "real" writing does, but seeing how fast AI has been developing, i say it's only a matter of time. no matter how much creativity and heart one may pour into their work, it can all eventually be whittled down to some sort of algorithm. we probably don't have much time until it's almost impossible to discern between human and machine writing, which honestly freaks me out a LOT.
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I disagree. Because AI will always only be able to copy, not create and certainly not read the room. One of the purposes of story is to help humans survive, cooperate and find meaning in their lives. It's not really about "entertainment." The bigger danger is that if allowed to control what stories get to young people- AI has the power to create despair. And despite the insistence on economists to base everything on continuous growth-physics tells us that is not possible. AI is limited to a market that can sell it's stories. Already that is only a small first world audience. The rest of humans will go on creating stories to help them survive a changing world. Our civilisation will go on destroying itself by not facing reality.

www.theguardian.com

Tech guru Jaron Lanier: ‘The danger isn’t that AI destroys us. It’s that it drives us insane’

The godfather of virtual reality has worked beside the web’s visionaries and power-brokers – but likes nothing more than to show the flaws of technology. He discusses how we can make AI work for us, how the internet takes away choice – and why he would ban TikTok
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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Jonny

Fanfare! Living the high life all thanks to my writing :-)

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LA Thomas

FREAKING OUT

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