Help Please! On the value of publishing credits and finding representation

[Lex Black]

OK...so.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been rereading Steven King's "On Writing." I've been a fan of King's for decades (I can't claim to have been there from the very beginning, but I found his work soon enough and have enjoyed the bulk of it in the years since). In my latest...determination? Obsession? Deluded, Quixotic lost cause quest?...to achieve publication, I've been poring back over the work to reabsorb some of the thoughts and input of one of the industry's most popular contributors.

Last night I came again to the section where he uses a metaphor, "Frank", actually an amalgam of the efforts of three writers King knows, to describe aspects of the process of starting a writing career. A good portion of this section places emphasis on the importance of having "credits", i.e., having a list of things published, in seeking an agent.

I find myself wondering: is this part of what's working against me? I've been writing, and failing utterly to get published, for longer than many writers have been alive. When I include the mini-bio in a query and mention that I've been writing for (my age -6 years) but have never once achieved a publishing credit, is the agent in question simply seeing "This one isn't worth my time" in bold face? Does my long history of failure guarantee future failure?

@AgentPete ? Anyone else with relevant knowledge? What do you think? Am I just wasting my time writing queries if I have nothing to list in them to prove tried worth to an agent?

 

[Kitty]

Explicitly stating that you’ve been writing for years and never achieved anything is probably not a good idea. Better to say nothing.

Let your writing speak for itself. Ultimately it doesn’t matter if you don’t have any writing credits. Everybody loves a debut. It’s certainly not a negative. Mention writing courses, workshops or groups you belong to instead as that shows you are taking your craft seriously and leave it at that.

 

[Webbwalker]

If you don't have any publishing credits, simply don't mention it at all in your letter. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure most people querying agents have not published work before. I'd bet those who have published are a tiny minority.

 

[Lex Black]

This is not a good selling point and I wouldn't mention it.

Explicitly stating that you’ve been writing for years and never achieved anything is probably not a good idea. Better to say nothing.

If you don't have any publishing credits, simply don't mention it at all in your letter.

See, that's the problem.

Everything I read on the subject, not just King, talks about how you should mention any credits you have, tell the agent a bit about yourself, etc. If I have no credits to mention, what the hell do I talk about?

I am a writer.

"Ok. How long have you been writing for?"

Uh...a really long time. Since I was a really little kid pounding out sci-fi and horror stories on an archaic typewriter (seriously).

"Ok, so surely you have published something in all that time?"

Uh...I'd rather not say.

"So that's a no. Please enjoy my own generic version of pissoffwriter.doc."

If I don't say anything, it's clear by the omission that I have nothing to talk about. King puts it pretty well: many agents see even small writing credits as a sort of gatekeeping sign of a writer's potential: "I got a three-age story written in a defunct magazine and was paid five contributor copies for it" is infinitely better than "I have nothing at all to show for decades of work."

...ok, technically, I have one single writing credit on a humor website, but I don't mention it because it's a list-based humor article that has nothing at all to do with the fiction I write. including feels desperate (and probably would be seen that way).

Now, when I've done the queries, I have tried to put as positive a spin on it as possible while remaining honest. "I've been writing creatively for most of my life, and am hoping to begin a professional phase with this MS" is a rough example. I don't come out and say "I have been submitting to every publisher and agent on the face of the planet for decades and every single one has told my to piss off" even though that's accurate.

I'm just...feeling lost, here.

 

[Lex Black]

Oh, also:

Mention writing courses, workshops or groups you belong to instead as that shows you are taking your craft seriously and leave it at that.

See, I like that in theory, but again, does the history build up to be something against me here? "I took writing courses all through school, attended seminars and courses, have belonged to numerous websites and writing forums, for years and years and years..."

"So, all of that helped you get at least one credit, right?"

"Uh...no..."

 

[Kitty]

I think you’re being unduly negative and hard on yourself.

Maybe best to avoid mentioning writing credits at all and concentrate instead on why you are the best person to write the story you’re pitching. What inspired you to write it? And what else do you do when not writing. If there’s any connection between real life and your fiction build on that.

 

[Marc Joan]

As above. Just use the cover letter to set out the excellent novel that you are offering to the agent / publisher, a novel which change their lives as well as the lives of every single one of the tens of thousands who will read it. You don't need credits in pesky magazines that nobody has ever heard of. Just get on with it & don't look on the Lex Black side so much!

 

[Webbwalker]

I agree with Kitty and Marc-Joan, and I think you're worrying about this far too much. I've never read any books on writing so I don't know what successful and published writers say about this but - didn't it take years and years and incredible persistance for Stephen King to get published? Did he have any credits to add to his initial lettter (I don't know, but I'm assuming not)? I can't say for sure how important it is, because I know the American querying process is different to the British submissions system, but I'm certain the vast majority of people querying agents dont have existing publishing credits, and yet new writers get published, so it can't be a requirement. Tell them what you have done, what you've written and maybe why you wrote it. Don't tell them what you haven't done, or failed to do, it won't help you sell the book you have written.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Keep it simple, no angry hair-shirt stuff. Talk about the book, this book and nothing but the book. Brief, businesslike and maybe a bit mysterious.

 

[Lex Black]

didn't it take years and years and incredible persistance for Stephen King to get published? Did he have any credits to add to his initial lettter (I don't know, but I'm assuming not)?

Yes, he did. And at this point, I have many more years and nothing to show for it.

King gradually started to sell small things, while otherwise getting bits of short praise and positive feedback from editors instead of pissoffwriter.docs (which in those days were typewritten). So yes, he had some short stories to his name when he landed his first couple of agents and sold his first novels (by the time he was in his mid-twenties. I barely remember my mid-twenties.).

Keep it simple, no angry hair-shirt stuff. Talk about the book, this book and nothing but the book. Brief, businesslike and maybe a bit mysterious.

This is exactly what I have been doing, and combined with the input from King and other advisors on the subject, why I'm wondering if having no proven background is killing any tiny chances I might even have had.

 

[Kitty]

This is exactly what I have been doing, and combined with the input from King and other advisors on the subject, why I'm wondering if having no proven background is killing any tiny chances I might even have had.

No. It’s not. As simple as that.

 

[Robert M Derry]

Stephen King's On Writing is an excellent book, however you have to remember that it was originally published in 2000, he wrote it over the course of the 90s and he had his big accident in the middle of that, so the actual text is old in industry terms. The publishing market has altered dramatically since then and I would only use King's book to advise you on the 'craft of writing', rather than how to get published.

From memory, I think in terms of 'credits' in that section, King was referring to magazines and short story collections that would publish stories. To my knowledge (I haven't looked hard, but I've never come across any) such things are now non-existent in print form. Anything published online, is, (I think?) in publishers eyes, looked down upon as borderline self-publishing; there's virtually no cost (hence less risk) in a website putting a story online on a free, ad driven website.

There are more modern books that can assist you with getting published. I've read Harry Bingham's Getting Published, which is more useful for the modern writer but even this is now nine years out of date. Industries move fast and you have to take any advice from older texts, with a pinch of salt.

Fundamentally, as you see each week on pop-ups, it comes down to the quality of the text and whatever's selling in the market at the moment. You can tell from Pete's comments that he's always thinking; 'What editors would bite my hands off for this?', 'What kind of advance can I get for it?' 'Who else has done this before, and if so, did it sell well?'. Agents are looking for saleable manuscripts, nothing more, nothing less.

Get that MS to top standard @Lex Black, the rest will come!

 

[Rob Reid]

Hi Lex,

I can relate to your situation. Here are some suggestions based on my success in finding an agent for my first novel when I had no publishing credits and had never even submitted anything before.

I wrote a short, straight-to-the-point query letter stating that:
1) My novel is complete at 63,000 words
2) While I don't have a literary background, I have an MBA degree and years of experience in writing business reports
3) My novel has an intriguing premise which I briefly explained

I think the key is to demonstrate to the agent that you have excellent writing skills (not least by writing a concise, business-like query letter) and have a finished manuscript that might interest them.

My agent found a publisher who liked my novel but decided to pass on publishing.
But getting that far on my first attempt was encouraging. I'm now working on a 2nd novel. Good luck with your efforts!

 

[Chase Gamwell]

I typically leave the bio portion out of the query letter because I don't actually have much to say about myself that an agent would find worthwhile. I write a monthly column about video games for a small website that most people haven't heard of, and besides that I've only written a few scientific papers that have been published at technical conferences around the globe. Neither of those things have much to do with the genres that I write in, nor would technical-type writing really be a good metric of my creative style.

Further, I don't really write short/flash fiction, and anything that I've tried to write hasn't been picked up by any magazine or anywhere else (though, it's been a few years since I've written short fiction and I've improved a bunch since then).

Besides that, I've never placed in any of the (few) competitions I've entered, nor have I taken any writing courses

So, I find myself between a rock and a hard place, because there isn't all that much I can really say. I've always wondered if that's a stumbling block (much like I wonder about querying without comps), but I try not to think about it. If the book you're writing really catches an agent's attention, they'll request more - it's only a matter of time!

 

[Carol Rose]

@Lex Black, agents know some writers querying them are unpublished. The only time you'd need to list prior writing credits would be if the submission requirements specifically say you need to be published to query them. Otherwise, if you're unpublished, you're unpublished. Everyone started somewhere.

Agents don't make money unless they sell your book, so their decision (and the ones who aren't in this camp aren't agents you'd want to work with anyway!) will be based on whether they believe your work has commercial value, and whether they have contacts in the industry they know they can pitch it to. The end.

That's what they're going to base their decision on. Your writing. Sure, make your query letter as interesting as you can without giving them all the negative details of your journey. I'd definitely stay away from that approach, because it paints you as someone who will not be easy to work with, and they may not bother reading your submission. But if they read the first few pages of your MS and like it, they're going to ask for more. End of story.

 

[Amber]

When King was racking up publishing credits he was pecking away on a typewriter and sending his stories to print publications. Obviously these are gone. They've been replaced by online magazines and such. For a while I've wondered if getting publishing credits with online publications works the same way as it once did with print publications. It might be worth submitting like mad to online pubs.

I think @Marc Joan has had some success publishing short stories and such.

 

[Carol Rose]

And don't forget... King started writing/submitting more than forty years ago! Everything has changed since then.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Re: keeping it brief, nothing downbeat, no history at all, talk briefly about the book. Just the book.

Re: keeping it brief, nothing downbeat, no history at all, talk briefly about the book. Just the book.

This is exactly what I have been doing, and combined with the input from King and other advisors on the subject, why I'm wondering if having no proven background is killing any tiny chances I might even have had.

I believe @Kitty. The letter's not an issue, Lex. Though it's only natural to wonder. King started at 18. Lots of us have only a few writing credits here and there if any. @AgentPete was asked this very same question before, via a submissions surgery, if I recall correctly.

Peter said less is more. If you don't have any publishing credits, simply skip all that, and whatever you do, don't mention it. He said that unless they are major, as in a national or international publication such as 'The New Yorker', they don't count much anyway, and the writer's professionalism is demonstrated by their businesslike approach, regardless.

 

[Lex Black]

OK, so: heavy consensus is that "credits" aren't worth as much as I worried they might be, and that the query and the MS itself are of paramount importance. This in turn leads to the conclusion that my queries and MS are crap and need vast improvement, which I already knew.

Moving on, then. Thanks for the help, folks.

 

[Taylor W. S.]

I think you’re being unduly negative and hard on yourself.

Maybe best to avoid mentioning writing credits at all and concentrate instead on why you are the best person to write the story you’re pitching. What inspired you to write it? And what else do you do when not writing. If there’s any connection between real life and your fiction build on that.

Would the following comment (from an Amazon reader/customer) be worth mentioning as a writing credit? It concerns a story that I was told was...plagiarism? I wonder.

<This review is from: Borg. The Emergence. (Kindle Edition)
Very good book that seems to be deeply hidden in the ether of Amazon.com. I only found it by a strict accident. Hopefully others will find it easier to discover.......

Or would that be seen as a negative comment on Amazon's ability to sell good books? 'Seems to be' he says kindly. Has anybody here tried finding a worthwhile read on Zon'. As he says with some regret, 'Deeply hidden in the ether,' more like 'buried believed dead'.
Sorry, I digress, that was my take on slush-pile vs. good books distributors.
I found looking for a publisher or an agent a complete waste of time, their demands pedantic to say the least. I always asked myself (after reading poorly written rejections) have these people ever written anything, had it published. I doubt it even though they own or work in a publishing house.
My advice to authors, self publish but don't part with any cash and read, read, read, and read, and read some more and the best of luck...yes, you will need it.

 

[Carol Rose]

I found looking for a publisher or an agent a complete waste of time, their demands pedantic to say the least. I always asked myself (after reading poorly written rejections) have these people ever written anything, had it published. I doubt it even though they own or work in a publishing house.

You do know Litopia is run by a highly successful agent, with clients who are also successful, right? And who also has publishing credits of his own, right?

Just checking...

 

[RK Wallis]

their demands pedantic to say the least

The only pedantic thing agents ask for is a good read. That's just extremely hard to do.

 

[Taylor W. S.]

Reading is a matter of taste, a case of Goose and Gander.

 

[Taylor W. S.]

Read. 'Stone's Fall' by Iain Pears. An excellent lesson in first person narration.

 

[RK Wallis]

Try researching comparable titles to your own, then seeing who their agents are, at least you narrow in on the agent who has similar taste to your book.

 

[Taylor W. S.]

You do know Litopia is run by a highly successful agent, with clients who are also successful, right? And who also has publishing credits of his own, right?

Just checking...

Oops, Pardon me.

 

[Taylor W. S.]

Try researching comparable titles to your own, then seeing who their agents are, at least you narrow in on the agent who has similar taste to your book.

Thank you, I value your concern. I just don't have the time; all I can do is send the Amazon and Xinxii links to all the publishing houses who aren't selling my books and then they can take their pick.
Thank you.
Bill.

 

[Webbwalker]

Thank you, I value your concern. I just don't have the time; all I can do is send the Amazon and Xinxii links to all the publishing houses who aren't selling my books and then they can take their pick.

Are you approaching publishers directly? There are very, very few publishers who'll consider an unpublished/unknown writer without an agent. You stand much more chance approaching literary agents, and it doesn't take much time. Just google the name of authors writing the same sort of thing + 'agent' and 90% of the time their agent will come straight up. Then Google the agent. You'll ususally hit a few pages detailing their likes and dislikes, sometimes a You Tube vid or two - always worth looking at. It's the only way to narrow the field and find agents who are most likely to want what you're offering.

 

[Taylor W. S.]

My, you are persistent. Thank you. I am 75, stuck in a wheelchair with Myositis and one day (hopefully not too soon) I will depart to the next life; in the meantime all I have outside my family is reading what you write and chatting with you lovely people here.
I am self-published, with dozens of books on Amazon and Xinxii. I wrote several books concerning the Holocaust, one based on facts the others well, it wasn't hard to make things up after I read all those terrible stories and those wicked people. I also wrote Sci-Fi and Crime with my daughter co-author. I'm editing some of our old backstories, and screenplays maybe I'll find time to format them...
Were you ever on Authonomy?
What a laugh that was. The comments... 'I can see this as a movie already.... 'You must be a professional... and the usual pleas.
I made some friends there, I see their names on FB, but I don't visit there under my own name; I just go to nosey around and maybe shout at my racist relations.
I am not on Twitter as I complained about a big mouthed politician and they deleted my account- no loss.
Thank you for your concern once again.
Bill.