Older Debut Authors

[Paul Whybrow]

A new writers' group has started to counter bias against older debut authors. As a sage if not entirely wise writer of 61, I welcome this development.
There have been some notable famous authors who started out late, including Penelope Fitzgerald, Mary Wesley, Henry Miller, George Elliot, Richard Adams, Raymond Chandler, Alex Haley, Charles Bukowski and Annie Proulx.
It's annoyed me that so much attention is given to those under 40, when it comes to prizes, bursaries and competitions. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for encouraging young talent and it's in my bones to pass on knowledge, but there reaches a time in life when you start to feel like you're invisible. A debut author of any age needs support, encouragement and recognition.
Prime Readers may be of interest to some of our more mature Colonists :

http://publishingperspectives.com/2015/07/uk-group-to-fight-bias-against-older-debut-authors/

http://theprimewriters.com/

 

[Carol Rose]

LOL! Seriously? There's a bias against older debut authors? Why on earth would an author's age matter???? That's the most insane thing I've heard all week. I was 53 when my first book was published 4 years ago, but I find my age as inconsequential as how many dust bunnies are currently under the beds in this house. Some people seriously need to find something useful to do. No wonder some people don't get any actual writing done. They're too busy fretting over things that have no bearing on anything. *SMDH* Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Longevity of potential career/sales/shelf life is the thing, I imagine. But older writers might do more in less time, if they have more available writing time. Plus, there is everything they've learned of life...

 

[Nicole Wilson]

I am in no way saying I agree with this, so please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say. The publishing industry is looking for people who are going to make them money and make them money for a long time. Someone who is under 40 and looking to be a career author is, in their minds, a gold mine because they have the potential to be the next Stephen King: write a crap-ton of awesome books and keep bringing them in money for 40 or so years.

 

[Carol Rose]

Really? What makes you think I can't write for 40 years, or that someone who is 20 years old can write for 40 years simply because they're younger than me? A person's age has absolutely nothing to do with their writing ability, or their longevity in this business. This isn't corporate America looking to hire younger employees in the hopes they'll retain them for longer than five years. This is a craft. It's an art. You either have the talent or you don't, and what age you decide to get serious about it, or the age at which you're first published, has nothing to do with anything.

At the risk of getting called a snarky name again, in four years I have 71 works under all three pen names. I think I can keep up this pace for a while longer, until the arthritis locks up my fingers or I can't see anymore (extreme sarcasm). Do you honestly think the "publishing industry" asked my age, or gave two hoots about it? They did not. They read the submissions and said "yes." End of story. No one gives a crap what my chronological age is, and it didn't factor into the decision to take on my books.

I really hope no one buys into this crap and decides they're "too old" to write. It's as ridiculous as saying if you have red hair you can't be a writer.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

I'm not disagreeing with you. But as the writing industry becomes more and more a business, some people's outlook is starting to turn towards seeing authors as "book machines", churning out book after book. I'm not saying all of the industry thinks like this; I'm saying some are starting to.

 

[Emurelda]

I didn't realise there was an ageist element to writing. How do people know the age of a writer anyway?

Yep just keep on keeping on people. Nothing to see here

 

[Carol Rose]

I'm not disagreeing with you. But as the writing industry becomes more and more a business, some people's outlook is starting to turn towards seeing authors as "book machines", churning out book after book. I'm not saying all of the industry thinks like this; I'm saying some are starting to.

Well then I guess it's a good thing I don't have publishers who think that way.

 

[Emurelda]

I'm not disagreeing with you. But as the writing industry becomes more and more a business, some people's outlook is starting to turn towards seeing authors as "book machines", churning out book after book. I'm not saying all of the industry thinks like this; I'm saying some are starting to.

Those are valid points.

I just think it's encouraging to be more and more innovative as we age. Even after we're dead it seems that if we have left an indelible brand behind our non-existence doesn't stop them from churning more books in our name

So it's up to us to be innovative in order to churn those brands out. I love brand building - can you tell

 

[Jennifer Stone]

I am in no way saying I agree with this, so please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say. The publishing industry is looking for people who are going to make them money and make them money for a long time. Someone who is under 40 and looking to be a career author is, in their minds, a gold mine because they have the potential to be the next Stephen King: write a crap-ton of awesome books and keep bringing them in money for 40 or so years.

This can also apply to any career, as I'm currently seeking employment atm I'm noticing a bias towards younger people. In terms of courses and grants money, in the UK at least, there's no funding for those above 24yrs. If I want to re-train for a new career, I'd need to get a loan.

 

[Richard Sutton]

There's another component of this very timely discussion. I'm an old guy. My fiction career began when I was over 50. Those of us of a certain age, have a whole kit bag full of cultural references, biases and viewpoints that those readers under say 45 or so, can't understand or won't connect with. As a result, my readers are mostly over that age. In addition, I enjoy a fiction read for probably a few different reasons than a twenty-something who has grown up in the ADD age surrounded by electronic entertainment at the press of a button. Not only do I know I can't write a modern urban thriller for example, I find that the hand-held-camera sense of the POV and the lack of meaningful sense of place means that while the pacing may be dynamite and the characters colorful, I just don't have much inducement to stay with it. My comfort zone is well-established. That effectively limits my choices in the market to older writers, generally. Nicole has a valid business point. I'm just not going to have the time to produce a popular best seller, let alone a string of them, so I will probably never have an agency pitch work. I can accept that. It's just the way of the ever-morphin' business.

 

[Carol Rose]

Must be a genre thing if this is true because this isn't happening with romance writers. Desiree Holt is over 70 and is still selling books and just as popular, just to name one author of many who are on the back side of 50. Our readers don't know how old we are and they don't care. Our publishers don't care how old we are.

I can't wrap my head around what's happening in the business world in terms of companies hiring younger employees as applicable to the age of writers. It makes no sense to me and it never will.

And with that, I'm politely stepping out of this discussion because I think the entire premise of someone being too old to write for years is utterly ridiculous, and I obviously have nothing more constructive to contribute to this conversation.

Peace out.

 

[Richard Sutton]

Carol's right, of course! There is no reason anyone can't write their way into the pine box. I intend to do so, but I also expect I won't be selling much along the way. I got a one-star review recently of my first book, an historic fiction/fantasy written in an intentional period voice. The reviewer (?) said "Nothing special. An old-fashioned story." I wonder where he got the book, or why? I wondered if he was even twenty-five.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

Carol's right, of course! There is no reason anyone can't write their way into the pine box. I intend to do so, but I also expect I won't be selling much along the way. I got a one-star review recently of my first book, an historic fiction/fantasy written in an intentional period voice. The reviewer (?) said "Nothing special. An old-fashioned story." I wonder where he got the book, or why? I wondered if he was even twenty-five.

Everyone has critics. Even if you get some one stars, keep trekking on with your head high. In the words of a brilliant philosopher, "Haters gonna hate."

 

[Bernard Stacey]

Paul Torday (of Salmon Fishing in the Yemen fame) did a great series of books involving the same characters that went on for several years and I think he only took up writing after retirement at about 60. I think if the quality is good enough, nothing else matters.

 

[Richard Sutton]

Everyone has critics. Even if you get some one stars, keep trekking on with your head high. In the words of a brilliant philosopher, "Haters gonna hate."

Oh, no, LOL! I wasn't upset he only left one star. It was a first, so it made the rest look better by comparison, no I only brought it up because he had stumbled into a book he didn't understand at all -- probably an age thing. I hope he got it free at least!

 

[Jennifer Stone]

Tbh, I've not had any companies, publishers or agents, ask about my age. So i don't think it should be terribly important, but there are biases. I'm sure there are some in every sector of employment and society. Some people will always favor some over others.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Anyone can write at any age. Mary Wesley is a shining example of someone who started out late, with her breakout novel The Camomile Lawn published when she was 72. Her last novel came when she was 85, and she was a very frisky woman : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wesley

As with job applications, the age of a writer should be irrelevant when it comes to submitting to literary agents. All the same, age must be a factor that's taken into consideration, even if it's not admitted to by those in publishing and also by readers. In doing research prior to making submissions, finding out all that I could about an agency and their existing clients, I've come across a lot that are staffed mainly by women under the age of 35. I'm not dragging gender into the discussion, but the thought occurred to me as I looked at the agents' happy smiling faces, that I must appear to be a fossil to them. According to Harry Bingham, thriller writer and publishing industry expert, two-thirds to three-quarters of publishers are run by women.

I can understand why signing a young and talented author is an attractive proposition, as they may have enough energy to see them through a long career - and they're more malleable than an older writer who knows their own mind. This doesn't take into account how books can be eternal, going on in perpetuity long after their creator has died. As with musicians and actors, dying can be a great career move, leading to a boost in sales. There's many an agent and publisher representing the estates of dead authors.

Anything that encourages people to read is good - that's something I always thought, and which was reinforced in my training as a librarian and infant teacher. Children aren't bothered about the age of a writer whose book they've enjoyed. Young adults are more ageist, I would suggest. One of the most startling literary agencies that I found online was obsessed with youth and prettiness, so much so, that I thought I'd stumbled onto a modelling agency site. All of the agents and writers were under 30, every one looked like a model or actress with professionally taken head shots. The agency represented clients who wrote romances aimed at young women, so it was decidedly niche in focus. Reading the writing samples showed that the primary requirement of the agency was being young, slim and photogenic with a racy storyline - literary ability wasn't taken into account.

Put it this way, I've yet to find an agency or publisher whose roster of clients consists of grumpy old men like me!

 

[Kitty]

Unless your age gives you a unique marketing edge - ie you are very old or very young - it is completely irrelevant. What matters is that you can write a good book and continue to do so. I've never stated my age at any point in the process and nobody has ever asked. You're only likely to meet an agent or publisher in person when they're either about to sign you or you've already got a deal on the table. I've yet to hear of any case where they turned around and said "OMG I didn't realise you were so old! I've changed my mind!"

Worry about improving your craft instead!

 

[Paul Whybrow]

I agree with you. The modern trend of approving of things by how they look, how new they are and what gimmicky features they have is all too prevalent. It's vital to keep an open mind, which is something that any form of art makes people do.

I've long maintained that something isn't good simply because it's new or because it's old, and nor is it bad and to be ignored because it's the latest thing or something from the past. Judge it on its worth and how it moves you.

 

[Amber Zade]

A new writers' group has started to counter bias against older debut authors. As a sage if not entirely wise writer of 61, I welcome this development.
There have been some notable famous authors who started out late, including Penelope Fitzgerald, Mary Wesley, Henry Miller, George Elliot, Richard Adams, Raymond Chandler, Alex Haley, Charles Bukowski and Annie Proulx.
It's annoyed me that so much attention is given to those under 40, when it comes to prizes, bursaries and competitions. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for encouraging young talent and it's in my bones to pass on knowledge, but there reaches a time in life when you start to feel like you're invisible. A debut author of any age needs support, encouragement and recognition.
Prime Readers may be of interest to some of our more mature Colonists :

http://publishingperspectives.com/2015/07/uk-group-to-fight-bias-against-older-debut-authors/

http://theprimewriters.com/

I'm sorry, I've never heard of such a thing. We're not performance artists. No one knows how old we are unless we tell them. I don't understand how there would be a bias although I could be wrong.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Finally I can post! Long painful story; BUT if you see an extension in your browser called something like 'Player Maker" remove it and remove it from your HD....

 

[Carol Rose]

Finally I can post! Long painful story; BUT if you see an extension in your browser called something like 'Player Maker" remove it and remove it from your HD....

What?

 

[Alistair Roberts]

New pc, and immediately spammed and flooded with ads that Adblock couldn't block, nor could I post here since yesterday! Rotten blighters, and spam and now a phone call supposedly from Microsoft. I think the spam is loaded onto the pc before you even buy it....

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Finally I can post! Long painful story; BUT if you see an extension in your browser called something like 'Player Maker" remove it and remove it from your HD....

Have you had a malware infection, Alistair ? I haven't heard of the Player Maker extension, and a Google search reveals little, so please tell us more. I had two major infections at the beginning of 2014, just as I was starting to write my novel. These took a total of ten weeks to eradicate, so you can imagine how happy I was - in the end I sacrificed some files, wiped my hard drive clean and reinstalled Windows from some recovery disks that I'd had the presence of mind to make when I bought my laptop.

As a result of my laptop being spied upon, many of my online accounts were hacked, including bank, eBay, Gmail and even my income tax.

My trouble started with something called Favicon MySearchDial, which was packing a load of malware. I didn't download it, but it must have come in attached to something else that I opened, as it suddenly appeared on my taskbar. There's thousands of Google results on this pernicious piece of evil, which some innocent people willingly download, believing its promise to be a search engine optimizer.

 

[Carol Rose]

New pc, and immediately spammed and flooded with ads that Adblock couldn't block, nor could I post here since yesterday! Rotten blighters, and spam and now a phone call supposedly from Microsoft. I think the spam is loaded onto the pc before you even buy it....

I'm so sorry!

 

[Nicole Wilson]

Bummer! I hope you guys back up your documents. That was something I learned the hard way, so now I use Google drive to store everything.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

It was horrendous, if I clicked on a post here, it opened a new page of advertising, plus the page here had three ads plastered over it. Only facebook was working and any other website gave me the same results. Adblock didn't stop it, but I saw up in the top right corner of every page, a tiny thing with a record symbol and the words Record Maker. Adblock removed it, but it came back as soon as I changed pages. I checked the extensions in the browser, and there it was. I unticked the enable box, and then removed it; but found it was also on the harddrive. I removed it from there, and all problems vanished including pop-ups telling me to ring Microsoft on a 1800 number, it also had a chat box so I answered once to 'bug' off. But chrome was locked into a loop by then and I couldn't even shut chrome down. CTRL + ALT + DELETE got me task manager and I was able to force chrome to shut down. Once I found that Record Maker and deleted it, all problems vanished, but it took me a couple of hours to sort it out.
Now that the vacuming is also done, I shall shortly make tea (or diner as the Americans prefer to call it)

 

[River_Writer]

It certainly is a shame if any author is discounted or ignored by an agent/publisher due to being over a certain age, but unfortunately age bias can exist. I remember many years ago reading about some writers who were getting rejected for television writing jobs, and felt something was up. They were told part of the problem was because they had the tv show "M*A*S*H" listed in their credits. While there was a time when to have written for that Emmy winning show was quite impressive, due to the success and quality of it, there came a point when younger executives (and even older ones) saw it as sign of an 'older' writer, i.e. not a hip, younger one. The article said that some of the writers removed "M*A*S*H" on their resumes because of this. That's horrifying to me!

 

[Paul Whybrow]

It certainly is a shame if any author is discounted or ignored by an agent/publisher due to being over a certain age, but unfortunately age bias can exist. I remember many years ago reading about some writers who were getting rejected for television writing jobs, and felt something was up. They were told part of the problem was because they had the tv show "M*A*S*H" listed in their credits. While there was a time when to have written for that Emmy winning show was quite impressive, due to the success and quality of it, there came a point when younger executives (and even older ones) saw it as sign of an 'older' writer, i.e. not a hip, younger one. The article said that some of the writers removed "M*A*S*H" on their resumes because of this. That's horrifying to me!

I always advise friends who show signs of prejudice using the age of people or what they've created, that someone or something isn't good or bad because it's new or because it's old - we have to judge a thing on its own worth. A great way of illuminating awareness is to say to a youngster that their favourite band's influences were this old group from the 1970s, who were in turn great followers of this blues musician from 1920. It works the other way round, as I once had a friend who hated all rap music, until I printed out the lyrics of some songs by Eminem, Everlast and Ludacris. She read them, thinking they were poetry and liking their message. She hadn't really listened to the words before.

Film and television executives are notoriously dim-witted, uneducated about the history of their industry and ageist - never mind sexist, racist and all of the other prejudices that are used to hold people back. It's always puzzled me a bit how studios, which are run by an older generation, appoint young people to management positions, purely on the basis of them being energetic and full of ideas, discounting the experience of veterans.

Ageing really is a question of attitude. As the artist Francis Bacon said: 'I will never be an old man. To me, old age is always 15 years older than I am.'

Another wise observation, from Madeline L'Engle: 'The great thing about getting older is that you don't lose all of the other ages you've been.'

And finally, Jonathan Swift noticed that: 'Every man desires to live long, but no man would be old.'