Mass Appeal of Darker Subjects?

[ghuffman]

One of the comments made by Agent Pete on last week's Pop Up was about dark / depressing subject matter, and that modern reader isn't looking to be depressed (paraphrasing). It struck me because my work has some darker themes, and some of them quite forwardly described. As I edit, I've trimmed some of the detail out, for fear that the scenes that are more graphic - sex, gore, etc. - might limit the appeal of the work to larger audiences. I took King's advice in On Writing as I wrote, tell the truth, but now that I'm trying to put myself in the reader's modality (woot.), maybe some of it is too much. I'm happy with what I've pulled out, I just wonder if depressing circumstances for my MC might limit the saleability of the work?

I don't know if it's like this for you, but I can't stop my characters from making the choices they make - when I go into state, I'm just transcribing... But now that I'm editing, ought I be working to maximize the appeal of the work to the largest audience possible?

Any thoughts on this? Do sexual encounters and metered violence, in the right amounts, sell?

 

[Nikky Lee]

I think in some genres this is true and I can fully appreciate that the world is pretty depressing right now and seeing that reflected in everything you watch and read grows tiring.

However, grimdark fantasy (think Game of Thrones) is still enormously successful (or appears to be) and often ventures down some fairly dark alleys. I'd say the same for crime fiction. And horror.

I recently listened to an excellent interview on Grim Tidings Podcast that explored one of the main criticisms of grimdark: that supports misogyny, abuse and murder. The response from the 3 authors on the panel was so good I actually paused the interview to write them down for an article later.

Their argument: Grimdark is not praise to misogyny, abuse and murder. It is a critique of it.

“Grimdark worlds are bleak dark places. They are taking you into the dark underbelly of human nature, which very clearly includes misogyny, abuse, the degradation of women. Because, hey, take a look outside folks, that’s generally how culture has operated since humanity first evolved. ”—Anna Smith-Spark.

In essence, grimdark doesn't shy away from the nasties of the world, it tells it like it is, draws attention to the ugly to say: this is awful, we should be better than this.

My own thoughts: I don't mind violence and sex in a story, so long as it serves a purpose and doesn't go on for longer than it needs to.

I just wonder if depressing circumstances for my MC might limit the saleability of the work?

I think it's a case by case. Depressing circumstances can be compelling. We'd probably need to know/read more to weigh in.

 

[Andrew Okey]

If it's any consolation... I was at a writing fair recently and pitched a novel based around the Black Death's visitation to Venice in 1576, and the agent I was speaking to was really keen and said "ooooh, we like a bit of plague in the publishing industry"...

 

[Carol Rose]

I'm a firm believer that if you want to write it, there's an audience for it. The challenge is finding an agent who believes they can sell the book to a publisher. Or, if you self-publish, to find that audience.

 

[Leonora]

I think Pete was talking about grim realism, channelling Alan Sillitoe et al. Murder and mayhem are a kind of fantasy too, aren't they? He was talking about escapism I thought.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Misery memoirs sell well, and while I can see that reading about great suffering could be therapeutic to someone who's experienced similar trauma, such immersion can become addictive. I once dated a woman who read only misery lit, supposedly as a way of rationalising her own dreadfully abusive upbringing, but it didn't heal her, rather making her more of a victim—full of self-loathing, anger and suspicion.

People are voyeurs, who like hearing of others' misfortunes...be it factual or fictional. Just think of news reports full of doom and gloom. Broadcasters have experimented with Good News programmes, but they proved unpopular, hence they tag an optimistic story onto the end of each bulletin to try to take the bad taste away. It sounds hard to believe, but back in the 1960s, the BBC had a policy of programme-making where a baddy wasn't allowed to be victorious or go unpunished, for fear of corrupting the morals of the nation, leading to a crime wave! This led to some awful additions to scripts, where the coppers miraculously caught the villain in the last five minutes of the episode.

In my own crime writing, I've sometimes pondered the wisdom of what I'm divulging, for I could be passing on information on how to create an undetectable poison, the best way of weighting a corpse so that it doesn't float to the surface of the water or what to do to make a forced hanging looks like suicide. I tend to keep some information back, though that doesn't mean to say that I haven't given someone homicidal ideas. I might be encouraging an army of murderous grannies, for most fans of crime fiction are 60+ and female.

One of my favourite non-fiction books, which is full of dark occurrences, is Those About To Die by Daniel P. Mannix, which details the world of the Roman arena. The cover of one edition gives you an idea of the subject matter, showing a half-naked virgin about to pulled apart by four oxen:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Those-About-Die-Daniel-Mannix/dp/0345242408

I first read this book at the formative age of 12, thinking that I was glad such times were far behind us. In the last 50 years, I've observed a reversal in morals, encouraged by the voyeurism of the internet and such television shows as Gladiators, Mixed Martial Arts, cage fighting and reality programmes where medical and road traffic emergencies are treated as entertainment. Log onto a newspaper site such as the Daily Mail, and you can watch videos of people dying. With increasing numbers of prisoners incarcerated, it's not difficult to imagine a return of the arenas, where convicted criminals fight for fame and liberty.

Ask yourself—would you go along to watch?

 

[Katie-Ellen]

People are voyeurs, who like hearing of others' misfortunes...be it factual or fictional.

Up to a point. Too many things are just so terrible, I do not want them inside my head. But I may like to know how someone got into this hole or how they get out of it., and will they be able to, and how much do I care, and why do I? But I couldn't sit through 'Saw' or 'The Human Caterpillar.'

But looking at it more widely, there'll always be a need for stories dealing in dark things. 'Dark sacred night' is one thing, but Humanity is hardwired to fear 'the dark', and for profound reasons.

But there is a thing, a mood afoot since 2017; a new genre label, publishers and agents looking for 'up lit.'

 

[Eva Ulian]

One of the comments made by Agent Pete on last week's Pop Up was about dark / depressing subject matter, and that modern reader isn't looking to be depressed (paraphrasing). It struck me because my work has some darker themes, and some of them quite forwardly described. As I edit, I've trimmed some of the detail out, for fear that the scenes that are more graphic - sex, gore, etc. - might limit the appeal of the work to larger audiences. I took King's advice in On Writing as I wrote, tell the truth, but now that I'm trying to put myself in the reader's modality (woot.), maybe some of it is too much. I'm happy with what I've pulled out, I just wonder if depressing circumstances for my MC might limit the saleability of the work?

I don't know if it's like this for you, but I can't stop my characters from making the choices they make - when I go into state, I'm just transcribing... But now that I'm editing, ought I be working to maximize the appeal of the work to the largest audience possible?

Any thoughts on this? Do sexual encounters and metered violence, in the right amounts, sell?

I agree with @AgentPete , people aren’t looking for books that depress them but this does not mean if writers deal with dark subjects, the writing too has to be gloomy. If that were so Charles Dickens would never have gained such enormous popularity, either then or now. What is important is the story, the characters, the suspense, the surprise and an “up” tone in the writer’s choice of words and expression.

 

[ghuffman]

I think in some genres this is true and I can fully appreciate that the world is pretty depressing right now and seeing that reflected in everything you watch and read grows tiring.

However, grimdark fantasy (think Game of Thrones) is still enormously successful (or appears to be) and often ventures down some fairly dark alleys. I'd say the same for crime fiction. And horror.

I recently listened to an excellent interview on Grim Tidings Podcast that explored one of the main criticisms of grimdark: that supports misogyny, abuse and murder. The response from the 3 authors on the panel was so good I actually paused the interview to write them down for an article later.

Their argument: Grimdark is not praise to misogyny, abuse and murder. It is a critique of it.

“Grimdark worlds are bleak dark places. They are taking you into the dark underbelly of human nature, which very clearly includes misogyny, abuse, the degradation of women. Because, hey, take a look outside folks, that’s generally how culture has operated since humanity first evolved. ”—Anna Smith-Spark.

In essence, grimdark doesn't shy away from the nasties of the world, it tells it like it is, draws attention to the ugly to say: this is awful, we should be better than this.

My own thoughts: I don't mind violence and sex in a story, so long as it serves a purpose and doesn't go on for longer than it needs to.


I think it's a case by case. Depressing circumstances can be compelling. We'd probably need to know/read more to weigh in.

I totally agree. I'm not a huge fan of either just for their own sake, it's all about story - if it moves things forward, and is believable/plot appropriate, then I usually leave it in metered amounts. I think going too far detracts attention from the story. I like your description of grimdark saying: this is awful, we should be better than this. In my mind, darkness should be there to put light in relief (to illuminate the more noble parts of us). I think that's why I'm drawn to low fantasy - I can bend the rules of reality to highlight the psychology of people in a way that's almost caricature.

To give more detail without revealing plot specifics, Murdoch, primary antagonist, is certifiably psychotic, and we spend time in his POV. This was tough for me for a few of reasons. 1) The guy's a nut job (evil nut job). 2) But yeah, i wrote him, so... 3) Being in his POV really sucked, because he's a pig. In fact, towards the end of the book, being in his POV was starting to depress me; found myself drinking a little more whisky than I usually do.

My first beta reader? She loved him. Wife hates him. Hates reading his parts of the book. Now as a writer, I take that as a compliment. But i think that demonstrates just how fickle and subjective things can become.

 

[ghuffman]

I'm a firm believer that if you want to write it, there's an audience for it. The challenge is finding an agent who believes they can sell the book to a publisher. Or, if you self-publish, to find that audience.

Carol, one of my biggest weaknesses and something I'm hoping to fix in 2019. I haven't done enough market research to competently place the material into genre. Shame on me. Low fantasy thriller is what I've been told, but I have a lot of homework to do. The more I read, the more I've learned that we're supposed to do this before sinking years away into a novel. So yeah, I hope things work out. /facepalm

 

[Carol Rose]

Carol, one of my biggest weaknesses and something I'm hoping to fix in 2019. I haven't done enough market research to competently place the material into genre. Shame on me. Low fantasy thriller is what I've been told, but I have a lot of homework to do. The more I read, the more I've learned that we're supposed to do this before sinking years away into a novel. So yeah, I hope things work out. /facepalm

Lots of people do that, but what I meant was that there is an audience for all types of books, including darker material, in answer to your original question.

 

[ghuffman]

I agree with @AgentPete , people aren’t looking for books that depress them but this does not mean if writers deal with dark subjects, the writing too has to be gloomy. If that were so Charles Dickens would never have gained such enormous popularity, either then or now. What is important is the story, the characters, the suspense, the surprise and an “up” tone in the writer’s choice of words and expression.

Eva, awesome distinction. As you say, and others have clarified, I think it's more a question of the reader's mind's eye and their emotional state as they consume the work, not necessarily the events, but the presentation of them, the tone.

 

[ghuffman]

People are voyeurs, who like hearing of others' misfortunes...be it factual or fictional.

Up to a point. Too many things are just so terrible, I do not want them inside my head. But I may like to know how someone got into this hole or how they get out of it., and will they be able to, and how much do I care, and why do I? But I couldn't sit through 'Saw' or 'The Human Caterpillar.'

But looking at it more widely, there'll always be a need for stories dealing in dark things. 'Dark sacred night' is one thing, but Humanity is hardwired to fear 'the dark', and for profound reasons.

But there is a thing, a mood afoot since 2017; a new genre label, publishers and agents looking for 'up lit.'

Agree. Those movies, to me, are crap. What's kind of scary, is just how many people want to wade through it. Why though? Do they like the feeling of their skin crawling and despair?

Agree again, profound reasons. I'm a fan of the human condition, and in fact, the Goddess in my book is named Anima. More than a subtle nod to Jung, and his shadow. Always been fascinated by us.

Thanks for link about "up lit", appreciated.

 

[ghuffman]

Misery memoirs sell well, and while I can see that reading about great suffering could be therapeutic to someone who's experienced similar trauma, such immersion can become addictive. I once dated a woman who read only misery lit, supposedly as a way of rationalising her own dreadfully abusive upbringing, but it didn't heal her, rather making her more of a victim—full of self-loathing, anger and suspicion.

People are voyeurs, who like hearing of others' misfortunes...be it factual or fictional. Just think of news reports full of doom and gloom. Broadcasters have experimented with Good News programmes, but they proved unpopular, hence they tag an optimistic story onto the end of each bulletin to try to take the bad taste away. It sounds hard to believe, but back in the 1960s, the BBC had a policy of programme-making where a baddy wasn't allowed to be victorious or go unpunished, for fear of corrupting the morals of the nation, leading to a crime wave! This led to some awful additions to scripts, where the coppers miraculously caught the villain in the last five minutes of the episode.

In my own crime writing, I've sometimes pondered the wisdom of what I'm divulging, for I could be passing on information on how to create an undetectable poison, the best way of weighting a corpse so that it doesn't float to the surface of the water or what to do to make a forced hanging looks like suicide. I tend to keep some information back, though that doesn't mean to say that I haven't given someone homicidal ideas. I might be encouraging an army of murderous grannies, for most fans of crime fiction are 60+ and female.

One of my favourite non-fiction books, which is full of dark occurrences, is Those About To Die by Daniel P. Mannix, which details the world of the Roman arena. The cover of one edition gives you an idea of the subject matter, showing a half-naked virgin about to pulled apart by four oxen:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Those-About-Die-Daniel-Mannix/dp/0345242408

I first read this book at the formative age of 12, thinking that I was glad such times were far behind us. In the last 50 years, I've observed a reversal in morals, encouraged by the voyeurism of the internet and such television shows as Gladiators, Mixed Martial Arts, cage fighting and reality programmes where medical and road traffic emergencies are treated as entertainment. Log onto a newspaper site such as the Daily Mail, and you can watch videos of people dying. With increasing numbers of prisoners incarcerated, it's not difficult to imagine a return of the arenas, where convicted criminals fight for fame and liberty.

Ask yourself—would you go along to watch?

Not personally, and i can understand your thoughts about being careful about your writing and its impact on your readers. As i wrote in another reply, it was pretty shocking to find out that one of my beta readers actually liked the antagonist, the broken Murdoch.

I hear you concerning media, and just general mood all around. Don't know if you've read the Fourth Turning, but I can't disagree with the patterns that they point out; at least, no one would disagree that things seem darker than usual right now. They would say we are in a fourth turning, or crisis period. IMO, art precedes these changes in mood. Notice the huge amount of apocalyptic art that went main stream. And now, crisis.

Sometimes, what I wonder, is whether we called this period out, or did our art simply reflect its inevitable arrival? I'm hoping we can smoothly move back into spring, and away from wholesale loosening of morals.

Up-lit might be a good sign? See, I'm an optimist.

 

[ghuffman]

Lots of people do that, but what I meant was that there is an audience for all types of books, including darker material, in answer to your original question.

Gotcha - just have to find my people! They're out there, but social media is so not my thing... =)

 

[Barbara]

This has got me thinking: I wonder if we can be dark, yet uplifting? And find humour within the dark? It's something I'm exploring in my current WIP. It sounds like you're writing something similar, maybe.

I think there will always be a mass appeal for the dark even though it might not be a trend. In my view, there is a difference between mass appeal and trend. A lot of people buy (mass a), but it isn't necessarily a craze (trend). (No idea if that makes sense.) The dark is part of life. It will always be there, hence there will always be readers. We all go through dark times, and I feel that dark subjects will be sought by the masses despite the times. Or maybe because of the times? It's a way for society to handle the Zeitgeist (a lot of dark art emerges during dark times). Like problem solving real life via art.

Maybe the thing that makes dark subjects appealing is the way we handle the dark. A fighter type character can be so inspirational and uplifting, so engaging if they act a certain way when the sh*t hits the fan. So maybe it's all about an uplifting solution to a dark subject. Or the tone of the darkness. If gloomy and depressing, no, not appealing. If proactive and problem solving, yes, appealing. It's the satisfying resolution to the 'problem' that we seek. We want to know a hard journey ends well, and that there's light after dark = uplifing.

Anyway, I suggest just write it regardless. If the dark hasn't got mass appeal at the moment (I don't know if it does or doesn't), the times will change and soon it'll be the latest craze, and when that happens, you're ready.

 

[yanapuma]

it all depends on context I think and how you tell your story ... I watched Sharp Objects which is based on the book of the same name by Gillian Flynnn ... both of which are incredibly grim ... the TV series is unrelenting but you keep watching because the characters are so great and the story telling is superb ... and there are many other examples ...

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Agree. Those movies, to me, are crap. What's kind of scary, is just how many people want to wade through it. Why though? Do they like the feeling of their skin crawling and despair?

I think it's not cruelty as much as the enjoyable sense of luxury; the feeling of being scared but knowing you're safe. Humanity as both predator and prey animal.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Individually, most people are reasonable and not given to saying extreme things or committing hurtful actions. In large groups, however, people say and do things in an unreasoning way...also, participating in events as an audience, watching things they'd avoid as individuals.

Capital punishment once involved public executions, which were hugely popular spectator treats. In the UK execution for murder was abolished in 1965, with the last hanging taking place the year before. That happened in a prison, but the last public hanging occurred in 1868, when an Irish freedom fighter who'd set an explosion that killed a dozen people, took the 'long drop' in front of a crowd of 2,000 jeering onlookers.

Prior to that, audiences could be huge, including children. It's estimated that 100,000 people watched a forger be hanged at Tyburn in 1824...he hadn't killed anyone, but stole £5,000 and other large sums to support a lavish lifestyle.

Were public executions brought back, it's not hard to imagine crowds flocking to see them...and, there'd probably be a cable television option to watch the event live.

En masse people become a baying mob in the street, sometimes running riot. From the privacy of their own home, individuals watch and read vile things, certain they'll never be found out. There have been all sorts of psychological studies done about the long-term effects of watching violent images. It's undeniable that it leads to a loss of empathy...and, if that happens to an impressionable individual, who can't relate to people compassionately, then they might well commit violent atrocities—such as mass shootings.

Murder and mayhem aren't just things to be talked about in shocked tones, not anymore, they're also sources of entertainment.

Most of us fantasise at some point in our lives, about killing someone and getting away with it. That fantasy might include receiving approval from our peers. It's a tricky area for fiction writers to explore, no easier for non-fiction authors describing wars and crimes, for we're forced to take a moral stance—even the words we use denote our own reaction to the violence.

Leonard Cohen explained the dilemma well in his poem The Reason I Write.

The Reason I Write​

The reason I write​

is to make something​

as beautiful as you are​

When I'm with you​

I want to be the kind of hero​

I wanted to be​

when I was seven years old​

a perfect man​

​

who kills

Leonard Cohen​

​

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Disgusting, but people lived in tougher times altogether. Sooner or later everyone, rich or poor, had to face the enduring of pain without relief. Baying mobs are generally a vile thing, but even that trope doesn't always run true. Baying mobs have famously also been sickened by injustice and cruelty, baying in defiance or even pity, and actively intervened to render an execution more merciful. A hanging in Oxford comes to mind, but there were other instances. Humanity, even en-masse, is not always predictable.