Help with plot needed

[Richard Turner]

Hello all
I've been absent for quite a long time because I have been unable to write. Starting again is another story which I will explore later. For the moment I've revived an idea I worked on 2 years ago which involves a very difficult and complicated plot.
Are there any books, articles, software etc. which members have found helpful in planning the structure of a novel?
I've tended to write first and link up sections later, but this leads to 10 or more different versions of the story all saved on my hard drive. Sometimes I think I would be better off deleting most of them, but I can't bear to delete bits of writing which seem good in themselves.
Any advice appreciated.

 

[Rich.]

Hi Richard,

When I announced to the world (ahem) a few years ago that I was writing a novel, a writer friend of mine bought me a copy of Save the Cat by Blake Snyder. It's a screenwriting book, but there's a lot there for a novelist struggling with plot. I've subsequently discovered that the book's loved and loathed in equal measure. But I certainly found it a good place to start.

The other book I've used a lot is Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight V Swain. Again, these kinds of writer's manuals are not to everyone's taste, but I found these two to be immensely helpful when I was trying to get my head around the complexities of plot. They're good jumping off points for developing your own methods.

I hope they help. Good luck with it!

 

[Island Writer]

Hi Richard and welcome back!

I have found Cathy Yardley's book: Rock Your Plot incredibly helpful. She lays out a workflow that is easy to follow and it works!

Good luck !

 

[Paul Whybrow]

I recommend two books by Noah Lukeman. The Plot Thickens discusses plot development, using examples from classic stories. The First Five Pages is about much more than the opening of your novel, exploring such subjects as showing versus telling, characterisation and hooks.

Welcome back, and good luck with your new novel.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

I also found some thought-provoking ideas on plotting on Shawn Coyne's Story Grid site:

Story Grid - What Good Editors Know

He's often collaborated with novelist Steven Pressfield, whose publishing history is inspiring for he surmounted many setbacks and disappointments before achieving success.

Steven Pressfield Online

 

[Quillwitch]

Hello all
I've been absent for quite a long time because I have been unable to write. Starting again is another story which I will explore later. For the moment I've revived an idea I worked on 2 years ago which involves a very difficult and complicated plot.
Are there any books, articles, software etc. which members have found helpful in planning the structure of a novel?
I've tended to write first and link up sections later, but this leads to 10 or more different versions of the story all saved on my hard drive. Sometimes I think I would be better off deleting most of them, but I can't bear to delete bits of writing which seem good in themselves.
Any advice appreciated.

Hi Richard. Glad to see you back. I have that exact same problem. I´ve tried all sorts of stuff ( books, pgs, etc) and the one that seems to help the most ( in my case, at least) --because my novel is complex ( lots of characters, long timeline, lots of plots/subplots) and simple stuff just doesn´t work...is dramatica. It shows you ( the caveat being you have to read a lot to understand the mechanics) --but it shows you how to layer the information so that it works and how to plot all of it together so it works. It´s hard work but very satisfying. ( And you can really decide what to take and what to discard from the program). I´ve never bought the entire program but i´ve got lots of notes on it that have been very helpful. Here are some links:
this one is very easy to navigate and very useful: How to Write a Book Now -- Tools for Emerging Authors
Dramatica Story Development Software
Theory - Dramatica
Downloadable Items - Dramatica

And the thing about the 30,000 chapters/ files --well, I am about to look at Scrivener and I´ll let you know if that worked for me.
Good luck!

 

[Matnov]

I have only ever read one book on writing, at least all the way to the end, and that was 'On Writing' by Stephen King but the one, and most important, thing I took from it was the importance of just fucking writing. Bang out a first draft and worry about all the other stuff later. Give it a beginning, a middle and an end and then fret about character arcs or plot structure and so on when you start to reshape it. Because that is when you start to create a novel but certainly not before you have thrown all the main ingredients into the pot.

Write first and foremost for the sheer bloody fun of it because if it ain't part of how you get your kicks, at least with clothes on, then I struggle to understand why anybody would sit down and do what we all do without being paid a bloody large sum up front. Write because its what you like to do, feel driven to do. I am not saying that there is not a craft to be learnt, and I KNOW I could do with paying a whole lot more attention to that but without a first draft, then its nothing more than intellectual onanism.

And yes, your first draft is going to be dreadful. Shocking in fact. Bad beyond belief. But that's the point. Only you get to read it and cringe accordingly but without that awful piece of prose that has more holes in it than the current defence of my beloved CPFC, you aint got nothing. Nada. Zilch. And all the books on craft will only serve to act as handy door stops or to prop up that wobbly table you keep on meaning to get fixed.

One word at a time. That is all this is when push comes to shove. Worry about if they make any sense once you have 100,000 plus of the bastards down in front of you and your main character has resolved whatever shit you put them in at the beginning.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

There's a timely reminder of Stephen King's thoughts on how to write a book in today's Independent newspaper:

22 lessons from Stephen King on how to be a great writer

 

[Richard Turner]

Thanks to everyone for these very helpful answers. I'll respond I more detail when I've digested all the information.

 

[Matnov]

Thanks to everyone for these very helpful answers. I'll respond I more detail when I've digested all the information.

Best of British. And apologies if my own response seemed a little base. I am under no illusions about my own lack of technical ability when it comes writing and having had no formal training nor qualifications I am no doubt amongst the least competent people on here to advise on anything to do with craft.

But for me, and I bring a LOT of personal baggage here in terms of decades wasted believing that inspiration lay in the bottle rather than the more tedious reality of arse on chair and fingers on keyboard routine, the choice ultimately comes down to do you aspire to be a writer or do you want to write? There is, in my opinion, a huge difference with the later option being what works for me.

Try and write at least 200 words a day. It can be utter tripe, it can be fan fiction if you lack the inspiration, it can be comedy, tragedy, what ever you want it to be. Write it as pure dialogue in the most bizarre scenario that you can envisage.

But JFW. Every day come rain, shine or all points inbetween. Because that is what it all boils down to. Everything else is merely shiny baubles.

Have a smashing day !

 

[Richard Turner]

Well - lots of different advice. I've bought the kindle edition of Island Writer's (which island by the way?) suggestion "Rock Your Plot" and am about to start reading it. I've also read the STephen King notes - thanks Paul - and had a go at Drmatica as suggested by Quillwitch. Although I've got nowhere near absorbing all the material, and have fought shy of buying the whole thing, I did find some of the concepts immediately useful, and I am now making progress on the book. Most of the shape of the plot was done 2 years ago, but it became far too complex and I gave up. This is the prologue and sets out the central idea:

“A story has no beginning or end: arbitrarily one chooses that moment of experience from which to look back or from which to look ahead.”

― Graham Greene

We all have our recording devices. They store and replay moving images captured from the life before our eyes. The act of recording creates a story. Some of them are stories of imagined lives, but they are all stories. They hide or reveal our identities as we choose, or as someone else choses. Most of us decide to watch these stories from where the recording starts, but what if the beginning was actually somewhere in the middle? We live in a world of virtual reality and we can now go quickly to any point on the timeline of the story, and move the recording in both directions. Time has become pliable; we control its flow. We can change the polarity of movement. Just as you could pull an image through itself to become its mirror, so we can pull our recording through itself until the story faces the other way.

Alex, my old school friend, the great wheeler-dealer, the man who invented re-minding: he should get the credit for putting all this together. I now think he masterminded the whole thing. Somehow he kept all the elements in play. He persuaded me to sell my greatest invention, and I'm sure he had a hand in my rapid rise through the ranks of the party. There's so much now I don't remember, but there is a shadow, a door closes, something goes past the window. Clever, clever Alex. What a prick.

 

[Andrew Okey]

Well - lots of different advice. I've bought the kindle edition of Island Writer's (which island by the way?) suggestion "Rock Your Plot" and am about to start reading it. I've also read the STephen King notes - thanks Paul - and had a go at Drmatica as suggested by Quillwitch. Although I've got nowhere near absorbing all the material, and have fought shy of buying the whole thing, I did find some of the concepts immediately useful, and I am now making progress on the book. Most of the shape of the plot was done 2 years ago, but it became far too complex and I gave up. This is the prologue and sets out the central idea:

“A story has no beginning or end: arbitrarily one chooses that moment of experience from which to look back or from which to look ahead.”

― Graham Greene

We all have our recording devices. They store and replay moving images captured from the life before our eyes. The act of recording creates a story. Some of them are stories of imagined lives, but they are all stories. They hide or reveal our identities as we choose, or as someone else choses. Most of us decide to watch these stories from where the recording starts, but what if the beginning was actually somewhere in the middle? We live in a world of virtual reality and we can now go quickly to any point on the timeline of the story, and move the recording in both directions. Time has become pliable; we control its flow. We can change the polarity of movement. Just as you could pull an image through itself to become its mirror, so we can pull our recording through itself until the story faces the other way.

Alex, my old school friend, the great wheeler-dealer, the man who invented re-minding: he should get the credit for putting all this together. I now think he masterminded the whole thing. Somehow he kept all the elements in play. He persuaded me to sell my greatest invention, and I'm sure he had a hand in my rapid rise through the ranks of the party. There's so much now I don't remember, but there is a shadow, a door closes, something goes past the window. Clever, clever Alex. What a prick.

Richard - that really sounds intriguing. I'm too much of a newbie to dare give any substantial advice, but there is one useful thing I've learned about pl0t and plot structure (not from any guide to writing, my own view being that we are each in charge of our writing and all the most valuable things we learn come from our own practical experiences - as Caravaggio learned to paint by ignoring everything his tutor every told him in favour of just painting!).

My experience is - research drives plot, twice over. It so happens that most of my writing is set in the past, so I read a lot of history, and lots of what I read (often unexpectedly) allows new ideas to form and flower. Which is great, but additionally, as a point of practice, if I find out something that I think is useful and/or fascinating, I read it, absorb it, and then I try to recount it verbally (pity my poor long-suffering wife...), and that really helps me decide how, in narrative terms, the information can be delivered in a way that is clear and vibrant and engrossing for my listener/reader.

I guess that, even if you are writing about something entirely current, there are still articles in papers, snippets of other people's novels, TV news items etc that can drive that flowering of ideas, and allow you to experiment with the narrative expression of those ideas...

Good luck!

 

[Richard Turner]

Richard - that really sounds intriguing. I'm too much of a newbie to dare give any substantial advice, but there is one useful thing I've learned about pl0t and plot structure (not from any guide to writing, my own view being that we are each in charge of our writing and all the most valuable things we learn come from our own practical experiences - as Caravaggio learned to paint by ignoring everything his tutor every told him in favour of just painting!).

My experience is - research drives plot, twice over. It so happens that most of my writing is set in the past, so I read a lot of history, and lots of what I read (often unexpectedly) allows new ideas to form and flower. Which is great, but additionally, as a point of practice, if I find out something that I think is useful and/or fascinating, I read it, absorb it, and then I try to recount it verbally (pity my poor long-suffering wife...), and that really helps me decide how, in narrative terms, the information can be delivered in a way that is clear and vibrant and engrossing for my listener/reader.

I guess that, even if you are writing about something entirely current, there are still articles in papers, snippets of other people's novels, TV news items etc that can drive that flowering of ideas, and allow you to experiment with the narrative expression of those ideas...

Good luck!

That's interesting partly because it goes directly against the advice of the book I am currently reading - "Rock Your Plot" by Cathie Yardley, which advocates plot first, research later, and research to be kept in the background. I too am very dubious about writing courses and how-to-do-it books, but they can, just like history, get ideas going. I'm writing in an imagined near future, so my main concern is that the scenes are believable given what we know now.

 

[Andrew Okey]

That's interesting partly because it goes directly against the advice of the book I am currently reading - "Rock Your Plot" by Cathie Yardley, which advocates plot first, research later, and research to be kept in the background. I too am very dubious about writing courses and how-to-do-it books, but they can, just like history, get ideas going. I'm writing in an imagined near future, so my main concern is that the scenes are believable given what we know now.

There you go, Richard, I've always been a total maverick!

My own creative arc is always - IDEA!! >> Lots of research >> Lots of ideas, plot grows up like coral >> Write some stuff. I guess that's just what works for me, though...

 

[Richard Turner]

Best of British. And apologies if my own response seemed a little base. I am under no illusions about my own lack of technical ability when it comes writing and having had no formal training nor qualifications I am no doubt amongst the least competent people on here to advise on anything to do with craft.

But for me, and I bring a LOT of personal baggage here in terms of decades wasted believing that inspiration lay in the bottle rather than the more tedious reality of arse on chair and fingers on keyboard routine, the choice ultimately comes down to do you aspire to be a writer or do you want to write? There is, in my opinion, a huge difference with the later option being what works for me.

Try and write at least 200 words a day. It can be utter tripe, it can be fan fiction if you lack the inspiration, it can be comedy, tragedy, what ever you want it to be. Write it as pure dialogue in the most bizarre scenario that you can envisage.

But JFW. Every day come rain, shine or all points inbetween. Because that is what it all boils down to. Everything else is merely shiny baubles.

Have a smashing day !

Thanks for your thoughts. One of the things I have gained from this post and subsequent reading, is a change in my basic method. I have two semi-readable books, one "published" by what turned out to be a cheap vanity publisher, the other sitting in my computer. In both I found that I couldn't imagine a plot element until I started writing, so I ended up with lots of "pieces of writing", many of which I considered to have artistic merit, but which were difficult to string together into a believable plot. Some I would delete, but saved all the deletions. The result of this was that I had a confusing muddle of documents. I would be writing some description and realise that I'd already written stuff on that theme so would retrieve it and paste it into the new piece. Very bad practice! I now think it's OK to keep everything but not to resurrect it in the same project. How far I will get with plot planning I don't yet know, but it's something I have felt unable to do before, and now seems to be working.
As to the thorny question of "why do you write" I think I am moving towards the simple goal of my own satisfaction, but I don't think any of us can ever be free of the desire to be a successful author!

 

[Sea-shore]

Hi Richard, welcome back.

I recommend:

Story: Substance, Structure, Style, and the Principles of Screenwriting by Robert McKee

My brother bought this book for me, though I only grudgingly thanked him as it was quite pricey at £22.95. I thought it wouldn’t be useful for my writing, as it is about screenwriting, but I was wrong. It has been invaluable to me, making me think carefully about the fundamental truths about story, the art of story, elements of story and useful section for' writers at work'. Also, it’s a good/entertaining read.

@Quillwitch, I saw that Dramatica did a comparison with this book:
ROBERT McKEE: I read Robert McKee's book, “Story.” It's a good book with lots of great story examples. His “Chinatown” example of writing from the inside out is brilliant (pp 154-176) and shows his writing technique to its best advantage. There is no question that McKee loves story, knows film and theatre intimately, writes well, understands screenwriting as a specialized form, and has a lifetime of experience to back up his writing advice. In many ways, “Story” is inspirational. I recommend reading this book, especially if you are a screenwriter.

 

[Island Writer]

Well - lots of different advice. I've bought the kindle edition of Island Writer's (which island by the way?) suggestion "Rock Your Plot" and am about to start reading it. I've also read the STephen King notes - thanks Paul - and had a go at Drmatica as suggested by Quillwitch.

I'm in Antigua in the West Indies, dodging hurricanes! Our sister island, Barbuda, was demolished by Hurricane Irma but we survived unscathed!

I hope Rock Your Plot works for you - Cathy has read pretty much every 'how to' book out there and has distilled it all down into a step-by-step process. She also offers plot coaching by Skpye, a one hour session where she takes you through your plot. I've done it twice and found it incredibly useful. She often offers a discount in October just ahead of NaNoWriMo.

Good luck!

 

[Quillwitch]

Most importantly, @Richard Turner everyone eventually finds their own way of working. Whatever works best for you is the way to go.

 

[Quillwitch]

Hi Richard, welcome back.

I recommend:

Story: Substance, Structure, Style, and the Principles of Screenwriting by Robert McKee

My brother bought this book for me, though I only grudgingly thanked him as it was quite pricey at £22.95. I thought it wouldn’t be useful for my writing, as it is about screenwriting, but I was wrong. It has been invaluable to me, making me think carefully about the fundamental truths about story, the art of story, elements of story and useful section for' writers at work'. Also, it’s a good/entertaining read.

@Quillwitch, I saw that Dramatica did a comparison with this book:
ROBERT McKEE: I read Robert McKee's book, “Story.” It's a good book with lots of great story examples. His “Chinatown” example of writing from the inside out is brilliant (pp 154-176) and shows his writing technique to its best advantage. There is no question that McKee loves story, knows film and theatre intimately, writes well, understands screenwriting as a specialized form, and has a lifetime of experience to back up his writing advice. In many ways, “Story” is inspirational. I recommend reading this book, especially if you are a screenwriter.

Yep, McKee is the man! He knows storytelling, and though it helps to flesh out your story --really well, it still caters to a 90 minute film ( 90 -120 pgs of writing. I tried him and save the cat and i love both, but it still caters to film. In that sense, I find dramatica much more novel worthy.

 

[Luciferette]

Richard - that really sounds intriguing. I'm too much of a newbie to dare give any substantial advice, but there is one useful thing I've learned about pl0t and plot structure (not from any guide to writing, my own view being that we are each in charge of our writing and all the most valuable things we learn come from our own practical experiences - as Caravaggio learned to paint by ignoring everything his tutor every told him in favour of just painting!).

My experience is - research drives plot, twice over. It so happens that most of my writing is set in the past, so I read a lot of history, and lots of what I read (often unexpectedly) allows new ideas to form and flower. Which is great, but additionally, as a point of practice, if I find out something that I think is useful and/or fascinating, I read it, absorb it, and then I try to recount it verbally (pity my poor long-suffering wife...), and that really helps me decide how, in narrative terms, the information can be delivered in a way that is clear and vibrant and engrossing for my listener/reader.

I guess that, even if you are writing about something entirely current, there are still articles in papers, snippets of other people's novels, TV news items etc that can drive that flowering of ideas, and allow you to experiment with the narrative expression of those ideas...

Good luck!

Agreed. I write historical fiction, and so many times I've been reading around a subject and a tiny, inconsequential bit of info has provided a pivotal plot point. Specific research is different (e.g. Getting dates right so no anachronisms); I do that as I go along, otherwise you can get bogged down and never get on with the actual writing!

 

[Rachel Caldecott]

I have only ever read one book on writing, at least all the way to the end, and that was 'On Writing' by Stephen King but the one, and most important, thing I took from it was the importance of just fucking writing. Bang out a first draft and worry about all the other stuff later. Give it a beginning, a middle and an end and then fret about character arcs or plot structure and so on when you start to reshape it. Because that is when you start to create a novel but certainly not before you have thrown all the main ingredients into the pot.

Write first and foremost for the sheer bloody fun of it because if it ain't part of how you get your kicks, at least with clothes on, then I struggle to understand why anybody would sit down and do what we all do without being paid a bloody large sum up front. Write because its what you like to do, feel driven to do. I am not saying that there is not a craft to be learnt, and I KNOW I could do with paying a whole lot more attention to that but without a first draft, then its nothing more than intellectual onanism.

And yes, your first draft is going to be dreadful. Shocking in fact. Bad beyond belief. But that's the point. Only you get to read it and cringe accordingly but without that awful piece of prose that has more holes in it than the current defence of my beloved CPFC, you aint got nothing. Nada. Zilch. And all the books on craft will only serve to act as handy door stops or to prop up that wobbly table you keep on meaning to get fixed.

One word at a time. That is all this is when push comes to shove. Worry about if they make any sense once you have 100,000 plus of the bastards down in front of you and your main character has resolved whatever shit you put them in at the beginning.

I must admit I have many, many versions of everything I've written on my pc too. Like Matnov, Stephen King's book is the only book on writing I've ever read too and it made sense to me. But I'm relatively new to writing so what do I know? I'd say write... leave the first draft for a couple of months and do something else (gardening?)... then go back and re-write/edit. I also find putting sections of text into a very light grey helpful. That way I can pretend I've deleted them and see if the story works well enough without them. If not, I pop them back into black. I did try complicated visual charts with colour coding to keep a track of everything, but I'm not sure that was very useful. When I'm feeling a) organised or b) disorganised and lost, I put together an index of chapters and the main events/characters in each. (For example: Chapter One in which Barbie stumbles upon a goat. Chapter Two in which Ken learns to abseil, and his best friend dies.. etc, etc) Then you can see on one page the way your story is working out and if it makes any sense.

 

[Richard Turner]

Thanks to all contributors to this. I've taken lots of ideas from this, including the last one of greying out type - never tried that. Anyway, I've got past the initial plot block, but am now on the more familiar "Why bother writing more of this crap?" When it doesn't work it gives me belly-ache, but when I re-read stuff I've written a while back I often find some sections which even I (my greatest critic) admit is pretty good. So I persevere, and hope for the early return of those times when it flows and gets exciting.

 

[Rachel Caldecott]

Are we allowed to say 'Good Luck' to writers? Or should it be 'Break a Leg'? (Certainly not a finger!) Whatever it is... hope it works out for you and that you rediscover your joy of writing.

 

[Rich.]

... I also find putting sections of text into a very light grey helpful. That way I can pretend I've deleted them and see if the story works well enough without them. If not, I pop them back into black.

Genius! I will be doing this from now on.

 

[Rachel Caldecott]

Genius! I will be doing this from now on.

Brilliant! I'm so happy I could say something useful!

 

[Quillwitch]

I must admit I have many, many versions of everything I've written on my pc too. Like Matnov, Stephen King's book is the only book on writing I've ever read too and it made sense to me. But I'm relatively new to writing so what do I know? I'd say write... leave the first draft for a couple of months and do something else (gardening?)... then go back and re-write/edit. I also find putting sections of text into a very light grey helpful. That way I can pretend I've deleted them and see if the story works well enough without them. If not, I pop them back into black. I did try complicated visual charts with colour coding to keep a track of everything, but I'm not sure that was very useful. When I'm feeling a) organised or b) disorganised and lost, I put together an index of chapters and the main events/characters in each. (For example: Chapter One in which Barbie stumbles upon a goat. Chapter Two in which Ken learns to abseil, and his best friend dies.. etc, etc) Then you can see on one page the way your story is working out and if it makes any sense.

OOH! This is a cool idea! Thank you!