Welcome… I’m New Here! Hello World (& prologue question)

[Ed Simnett]

First post here- enjoyed my engagement with the pop-up process today (even if @AgentPete made fun of one of my comments ).

Writing historical and geopolitical thrillers.

Question- I often find myself wanting a sort of prologue or preamble to set the scene- i.e. to be the inciting incident. This can serve to both start with action and do some show not tell, and avoid a requirement to jump back in time, or worse do some heavy exposition, to explain why the protagonist was (say) breaking into the house/about to shoot someone etc. But it also means that the protagonist might not enter for a chapter or two (From Russia with Love and Doctor No both work like this, as does Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, some of Mick Herron's Slough House books, Tatiana (Cruz Smith), and Lee Child and Jeffrey Deaver also do this at times). Even with those examples, it's been drummed into me that the first page is critical, and in the pop-up submissions I am usually seeing the protagonist front and centre from minute one...

Thoughts?

RgNw

 

[Dorm Ant]

Hello and welcome.

My PERSONAL opinion, as a reader and writer (as opposed to an industry professional): I *hate* prologues. Especially backstory ones. The only time a prologue works, for me, is if it's very short (a page, not a chapter) and something really weird and intriguing happens, like it's from the POV of a character who is then found dead at the beginning of Ch1. If you want to set the scene, it should be done in chapter one, with your main protag front and centre. If you want to add backstory, it should be drip-fed during the opening chapters, or maybe have chapter three set in the past, for example.

 

[CageSage]

The reader meets the person on the first page, and that's the character they assume has a big part to play in the story - which means if they don't like that person, they don't read on.
It pays to get the main character front and centre, in a situation that demonstrates character and need.
I'd also suggest looking up the MICE quotient to see what situation to put the character in at the open, and why it matters to how the story ends.

 

[Jonny]

HI @Rivergate Nowinter

A very warm welcome to Litopia. Hope you really enjoy it.

Here's a good link to point out a few of the key areas of activity.

How-to Guide

If you need any further help getting around the colony, then please send me a PM and I’ll be happy to assist if I can.

On the question of “to prologue or not to prologue”. There’s no right or wrong answer. Sometimes they work if handled correctly. Other times they don’t.

But my own view is why take the risk of starting a book twice? It’s hard enough getting it right once

Often the vital information we feel needs imparting to readers at the beginning of a project, can be fed in more organically as the story develops and without needing to rely on a backstory info dump.

 

[RK Wallis]

Welcome aboard @Rivergate Nowinter

Your question is toughie because in your genre prologues are common. So I understand the pull to write one. Personally, (and I'm sorry this won't help) but I dislike prologues until I enjoy something about them. Off the top of my head, Karen Slaughter's The Good Daughter has the kind of thriller prologue that I enjoy. For me, prologues need to engage more than the first chapter. I've put traditionally published books down because of poor use of prologues. Seasoned authors seem to have a better track record with prologues, which is no surprise. But it is possible for a debut author. Our very own Pop Up guest, Peter Laws, debuted his thriller Purged with a prologue (though it's called Chapter 1) and that engaged me. A different thriller to your kind, but something that worked.

@Jonny is right though, it is hard enough to get one start right! Meet the Huddle engagement requirements, then bring what you have to a Huddle or ask them that question. Chat about it with everyone, including Agent Pete, but remember, you know your genre and your story.

Very often it's confidence and freedom that gives us the voice to do what we want to do regardless of what we hear or learn. Like that Pop Up entry last night with the heist. No writer or teacher would recommend starting like that but it worked for a lot of us. This writing gig isn't an easy business!

 

[gbhunt]

Hi @Rivergate Nowinter , great to meet you! This is definitely an anti-prologue site, and with good reason I don't mind a prologue as long as it grips me from the start and I don't feel that I've been sucked into investing in a character or situation only to be dragged away from them. So, if it makes sense, it can certainly work in my mind. The art is making it work...

 

[JohnBertel]

I'm a bit confused — are we defining "prologue" as anything that is in the book before we meet our main character, whether that text is headed "prologue" or not? And no matter how strongly it is connected to the main story?

 

[AgentPete]

Prologues are a bit of a bête noire for me, I’m afraid

Lee Child / Clancy / name-any-other-bestselling-genre-author includes a prologue in their latest oeuvre, which makes first-time writers think it’s the thing to do. But it’s not. Aforementioned writers can do almost anything they like… they’ve already established their reputation and built their readership base.

However, for first-timers trying to break in, the bar is far higher.

Now, I’m not laying down an edict in stone here. The one constant rule of writing is - if it works, it works! Just occasionally, on Pop-Ups we do indeed see a prologue that works well. But they are few and far between.

 

[Hannah F]

I am not against prologues per se. I have read some very good ones, but you're swinging off a rope over a cliff if you use one as a newbie author going for traditional publishing. The number of bad prologues agents/publishers get has turned them into a bit of a red flag. You may never get that debut.

One problem I've found with a great prologue is that it can make the first chapter an anti-climax. Your main character who should have piqued immediate interest and investment doesn't because the reader's mind is still in the prologue. So, a great prologue may actually end up encouraging your reader to give up on your story in chapter one! Jojo Moyes "The Horse Dancer" had such a great prologue, i was very disappointed when the story started. Luckily, I don't give up on books easily so I kept reading and it turned out to be a great read, but I'd wavered.

If your prologue involves a character who is not your main protagonist, that might cause initial confusion in your reader's brain as to who your main protagonist is (that certainly happens to me with books that have been on my tbr shelf long enough for me to have forgotten the blurb). The confusion can be off-putting, and it can have a whiplash effect on your reader.

If you love your prologue, a good practice is to re-write your first few chapters without it. Start with your main character. Get your information in by drip-feeding or a chapter 3 or 4 (if it's a particular scene you need early on). Does your story work just as well? (Other readers will likely be able to answer this better than you can). If the answer is "yes" then kill your darling. Good as your prologue may be, you do not need it. Without it, you will not annoy the substantial number of people who hate prologues or have the people who simply skip them miss out on vital information.

I've practiced stories with and without prologues. I haven't yet come up with a version that couldn't lose the prologue no matter how much I like it.

 

[Dorm Ant]

Re: "I've practiced stories with and without prologues. I haven't yet come up with a version that couldn't lose the prologue no matter how much I like it."

Exactly this.

(I haven't figured out how to quote on here, sorry.)

 

[Ed Simnett]

I'm a bit confused — are we defining "prologue" as anything that is in the book before we meet our main character, whether that text is headed "prologue" or not? And no matter how strongly it is connected to the main story?

Great question. In my case I am in prologue lite territory, it's immediately before the main action- <not a murder mystery> as someone mentioned earlier this is essentially how the body got there, for the protagonist to investigate. The main reason I think of it as a prologue is that I am not in the head of the protagonist (only scene in the book where (s)he is not present).

 

[Ancora Imparo]

Welcome, Rivergate! Great to see you here. I see Jonny has already given you the How To link. If you need any more information, just holler I'm also one of the Guardians — happy to help any time.

Some great information above on the whole Prologue conundrum. They're not an automatic turn-off for me because I've read some books where I thought the writer got it right, piqued my interest and then got on with the story. As Pete says, it's not written in stone. I love it when a writer breaks the rules and it works.

But I agree with everyone else that the chances of getting it wrong are high, especially for writers who aren't established. You would probably be as well to start at Chapter One and weave any necessary backstory in as unobtrusively as possible. Don't make your life (as a writer) any harder than it needs to be.

Look forward to seeing you around the Colony.

 

[Ancora Imparo]

(I haven't figured out how to quote on here, sorry.)

@SM Worsey – highlight the words you want to quote
A small box will appear under them saying QUOTE/REPLY
Click on QUOTE
Then go to the box where you are writing your reply. Click on that post where you want the QUOTE to appear.
Outside the box of the Post, at the bottom, you'll see Attach Files... and "Insert quotes...
Click on Insert quotes
A box will appear with Quote Messages at the bottom right. Click on that.
The quote will appear in your post and you can start typing underneath it.

Hope this helps!

 

[Barbara]

Welcome to the Colony.

Ah, the 'P' word.

Personally, I'm not keen on prologues. They feel like a false start. Most of the time they contain story parts I can happily wait for to find out later. Not knowing everything up front helps create a page turner because I will want to know more. To me, a 'P' is often a sign the author has overwritten the book, or isn't in charge of the story telling, or doesn't trust their story telling and is over explaining it because they don't realise what readers do and do not need to know (but I may very well be wrong on that. It's just the impression I get when I read a book containing one.)

Like Cage says, we do / should meet the MC on page one. I agree. But I also think we need to meet the actual storyline up front, the tease of where this novel is going to take us. Prologues often look back, or sideways. Personally, I'd rather have the promise of where the MC might be going over the next x amount of pages. I don't need anything else for now. A prologue often answers questions I don't yet have but enjoy asking during the rest of the book.

But like I said, this is just my taste

 

[Dorm Ant]

Something I've come across as well, is a few amateur writers using a prologue as a way to get around the "first three chapters" submission requirement that many agents still specify (as opposed to a word count). They think that they can get that extra bit of writing in; a cheat way to send four chapters, actually.

 

[Hannah F]

Something I've come across as well, is a few amateur writers using a prologue as a way to get around the "first three chapters" submission requirement that many agents still specify (as opposed to a word count). They think that they can get that extra bit of writing in; a cheat way to send four chapters, actually.

And many agents now say "A prologue counts as your first chapter" in their submission guidelines.

 

[JohnBertel]

In my case I am in prologue lite territory,

ha, ha

About From Russia With Love and Dr No: very few readers have started to read them without knowing that this Bond guy would appear and in general what kind of book they could expect. Bond was already a brand when they were released. However, in the very first Bond novel, Casino Royale, he was introduced on page 1.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Welcome to the Colony!

 

[James Marinero]

Welcome to the Colony! You've already become aware that this is a great place for writers and you've barely crossed the Welcome mat.

Prologues? Quite simply, I cheat.

When I've finished writing, I copy what I consider to be the piece that's likely to be the most engaging to my target readers and paste it into the 'Prologue'. I may edit it a little and change some wording. It usually involves violence.

Calling it Chapter 1 would not make sense and Chapter 1 for me is not necesarily the strongest.

The idea is to hook the book browser.

I'm obviously not a rich and famous author and too old to care about it, I'm just doing things the way I like to read them myself in books I browse. I rarely read the rear blurbs because they often give away too much. Each to their own and devil take the hindmost, or some such convolution.

 

[CageSage]

Welcome to the Colony! You've already become aware that this is a great place for writers and you've barely crossed the Welcome mat.

Prologues? Quite simply, I cheat.

When I've finished writing, I copy what I consider to be the piece that's likely to be the most engaging to my target readers and paste it into the 'Prologue'. I may edit it a little and change some wording. It usually involves violence.

Calling it Chapter 1 would not make sense and Chapter 1 for me is not necesarily the strongest.

The idea is to hook the book browser.

I'm obviously not a rich and famous author and too old to care about it, I'm just doing things the way I like to read them myself in books I browse. I rarely read the rear blurbs because they often give away too much. Each to their own and devil take the hindmost, or some such convolution.

I think that makes it something else. A flash-forward, maybe?
A prologue comes before the beginning of a story, and an epilogue is after the story ends.

 

[James Marinero]

Yes

I think that makes it something else. A flash-forward, maybe?
A prologue comes before the beginning of a story, and an epilogue is after the story ends.

, I understand all that. As I said, I cheat.

 

[KateESal]

Welcome aboard, @Ed Simnett