Fantasy Politics

[Robinne Weiss]

Seems to me that in fantasy stories, the solution to conflict between peoples/governments is usually war. I get it. Fight scenes are exciting, easy to write, because they're packed with action and emotion. I love to read a good fight scene.

But it bothers me. Why must fantasy resort to violence? Can diplomacy be written in such a way to be as thrilling as war? Can political thriller mix with fantasy?

I'm currently working on a YA fantasy series in which I'd like to solve the clash between cultures through diplomacy, not bloodshed, and I'm looking for good examples of existing novels that do the same. Have you read any recent fantasy that does this?

 

[CageSage]

There was a story that culminated in a battle of wits in the war-room (sans the war) and was won by the overpowering words of the person who spoke truth to power. I remember the climax, but not the title. Sorry. There are stories out there, but most readers seem to want a battle of some sort and don't like the diluted effect of an ending that 'talks' itself into a resolution.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Remember Peter V Brett's Demon Cycle series, @Robinne Weiss? I loved the first two books, real edge-of-the-seat reading, but then the third title The Daylight War slowed to a crawl for the first two-thirds, mired in politics—as if the author had been listening to tedious political reports while he wrote. It put me off reading the rest of the series.

 

[Mythobeast]

The advantage of war isn't just violence, but the threat of violence, which is a great motivator. "Millions of people might be left without health insurance" just isn't conducive to an exciting plotline.

 

[KateESal]

Can another dramatic event intervene? Bit deus ex machina, perhaps, but a natural disaster, external threat or some such might unite the potentially warring factions and force them to find a solution...

 

[Robert M Derry]

I would highly recommend reading Brent Weeks' Lighthbringer series for effective fantasy politics. I found a lot of the political scenes to be very tense and intriguing. It's also YA. Although there's still a war going on!

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Remember Peter V Brett's Demon Cycle series, @Robinne Weiss? I loved the first two books, real edge-of-the-seat reading, but then the third title The Daylight War slowed to a crawl for the first two-thirds, mired in politics—as if the author had been listening to tedious political reports while he wrote. It put me off reading the rest of the series.

Yes! And that's exactly what I want to avoid--that boring slog through politics. In my MG Dragon Slayer series, I went for a diplomatic solution to the 'dragon problem', but in MG I could simply shunt all the boring scenes at Parliament off screen and focus on the adventure part of it (most of the diplomacy happened between books).

But for YA, I feel like I can't just shove aside all the politics of the situation. There will be plenty of bloodshed (at least one assassination and one attempted assassination, and a lot of violence within one of the factions), but I don't want the main conflict between countries to be solved by war.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I would highly recommend reading Brent Weeks' Lighthbringer series for effective fantasy politics. I found a lot of the political scenes to be very tense and intriguing. It's also YA. Although there's still a war going on!

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll check it out.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Can another dramatic event intervene? Bit deus ex machina, perhaps, but a natural disaster, external threat or some such might unite the potentially warring factions and force them to find a solution...

Hmm...it's possible. But I don't lack for ways they'll find a diplomatic solution--I simply need ideas around how to convey a diplomatic solution in an exciting way that won't feel like reading a transcript from Parliament.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

The advantage of war isn't just violence, but the threat of violence, which is a great motivator. "Millions of people might be left without health insurance" just isn't conducive to an exciting plotline.

Indeed. And there will certainly be a threat of violence--one of the cultures has a long history of armed conflict between clans. But it doesn't seem right for my MC to advocate war (because by the time it comes to possible war, she will have friends on both sides of the conflict, and will understand exactly who is to blame for the problems). She's got to broker a diplomatic solution, or at least do her best to avoid an all-out war.

I'm actually beginning to think of framing the conflict as more of a popular uprising and modelling it around peaceful protest/demonstration in the real world. There's certainly opportunity for drama in that, as there's a faction in the conflict who will react violently to that...and it would allow my MC to continue to advocate for a diplomatic solution, while still having her engage in fight scenes.

 

[Mythobeast]

Have you read the Mistborn series? They do eventually get to the point of war, but he starts out just trying to encourage rebellion. Does your world have democratic elections? If not, then history tells us that the poor will stay oppressed unless violence intervenes. If you're just talking about the lower royalty being oppressed by the higher royalty, then you have more opportunity for intrigue, but pre-1850, the rich just expected to poor to stay in their place.

 

[Catherine Le Bars]

Great thread @Robinne Weiss. Without giving away spoilers (in case our Dr Darwin series ever gets picked up), the boss battles in our fantasy rely on diplomacy and the forces that hinder or help that process. We do build an army but combat skills are not a requirement That said, there is something so stirring about a huge battle - Helm's Deep springs to mind

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Have you read the Mistborn series? They do eventually get to the point of war, but he starts out just trying to encourage rebellion. Does your world have democratic elections? If not, then history tells us that the poor will stay oppressed unless violence intervenes. If you're just talking about the lower royalty being oppressed by the higher royalty, then you have more opportunity for intrigue, but pre-1850, the rich just expected to poor to stay in their place.

Yes. Violence always seems inevitable. The politics of my two cultures is different--one democratic, one not. Both systems are abused by those in power. However, in the case of my story, the poor will have a secret weapon up their sleeve--magic, which has essentially been 'hoarded' by the elite. Not magic in the casting-spells sense, but there is a magical plane in my world that allows better communication and travel than the 'real' world. Part of what will ultimately overthrow the elite is that ordinary people will be given access to this plane. By simple occupation, they'll muck with how the elite have used it to oppress them. And there's a bit of a twist...If your real body dies while you're in the magical realm, you essentially become immortal in the magical realm (so no killing people while they're there). I'm quite certain I can avoid an all-out war. It's just how to make it interesting and suspenseful for the reader.

 

[Nikky Lee]

Have you read Robin Hobb's Tawny Man trilogy? There two cultures/countries who have been at war form an alliance via a political marriage. What made that interesting is seeing the two very different personalities of the betrothed come to slowly understand and care for one another and be a bridge between their peoples.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Have you read Robin Hobb's Tawny Man trilogy? There two cultures/countries who have been at war form an alliance via a political marriage. What made that interesting is seeing the two very different personalities of the betrothed come to slowly understand and care for one another and be a bridge between their peoples.

Yes, I've read that trilogy. TBH, I can't remember much about it, except that I was really glad when it ended...LOL! Maybe I should re-read it. I had been on a Robin Hobb binge, and was getting really tired of the sameness, reading one author for six or seven books in a row.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Of interest: What Does Fantasy Get Wrong about Medieval Warfare?

 

[Barbara]

Of interest: What Does Fantasy Get Wrong about Medieval Warfare?

Hmmm. Read the first half and already disagree with several bits.

Medieval swords being light? I've used a broad sword in a fight scene and there's nothing light about them. Then again, I'm a girl and have skinny arms. Re archery, women may have skinny arms as he says, but I can't see why a female protagonist can't have had practice and training to get fit.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

I

Hmmm. Read the first half and already disagree with several bits.

Medieval swords being light? I've used a broad sword in a fight scene and it's not that easy. Then again, I'm a girl and have thin arms.

I think that how a soldier was armed depended on the wealth of his leader. Many soldiers provided their own weapons, which were adapted farm implements. Supplied with swords, a ruler might be tempted by low prices—meaning low quality metal—that his army appeared to be well-armed was more important than their actual lethality. The same situation has happened with armies since medieval times. For instance, in the Vietnam War, American troops despised their M14 and M16 rifles, which were unreliable in the field. AK47s taken from the enemy were prized, as they worked in rough conditions.

 

[Mythobeast]

Medieval swords being light? I've used a broad sword in a fight scene and there's nothing light about them. Then again, I'm a girl and have skinny arms. Re archery, women may have skinny arms as he says, but I can't see why a female protagonist can't have had practice and training to get fit.

The concept of "light" is relative. If you're looking for a lightweight self-defense weapon, learn to use a poignard or a rapier. If you're quick and well trained, you can use either to good effect against an opponent with a longsword. None of those is suitable for warfare - you'd be killed by a pole arm before you could get within stabbing distance. Think of the difference between a rifle and a pistol. A rifle will kill you before you get into pistol range. When everyone on the battlefield is carrying a spear or halberd, a sword is a light weapon, and a poignard is what you use when you run out of real weapons.

My longsword (real sword, not sword-shaped-object) weighs 3lbs, 2.3oz (1.4 kilos). This equivalent to the smallest exercise weights I own. It's easy to think of a sword as heavy because most of the time you hold it at arm's length. You might see if you can find a book that weighs that much, and time how long you can hold that at arm's length for comparison.

Nonetheless, it's easy to carry such a weight on your belt indefinitely. Compare this to a mace or small war hammer. Pikes are only convenient to carry because you can use them as walking sticks.



You're totally right about the archery thing. Here's what a women's olympic archery champion looks like. Not exactly beefy.

English longbows had a draw weight around 100lbs, but Olympic competitive archery runs around half that. Women generally only shoot 5-7 pounds lighter than men. If you're talking about soldiers, then you're looking for people who can draw closer to the maximum because you want to hit them before they hit you, and you're going for quantity over quality. "One of the pack," however, makes a poor fictional archetype.

 

[Barbara]

halberd

I've got one of those. Wouldn't want to use it tho.

My longsword (real sword

Nice! Pics please. I would love to see it. I collect swords. I've got a couple smallswords (real too from 1770s), couple officer's also antique, a katana. And daggers...

 

[Catherine Le Bars]

My longsword (real sword, not sword-shaped-object) weighs 3lbs, 2.3oz (1.4 kilos). This equivalent to the smallest exercise weights I own. It's easy to think of a sword as heavy because most of the time you hold it at arm's length. You might see if you can find a book that weighs that much, and time how long you can hold that at arm's length for comparison.

Nice! Pics please. I would love to see it. I collect swords. I've got a couple smallswords (real too from 1770s), couple officer's also antique, a katana. And daggers...

My scalpels are feeling VERY inadequate

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I've got one of those. Wouldn't want to use it tho.


Nice! Pics please. I would love to see it. I collect swords. I've got a couple smallswords (real too from 1770s), couple officer's also antique, a katana. And daggers...

I have several machetes, and spent two years with one basically permanently attached to the end of my arm. Not a sword, of course, but I can totally agree that sword fighting is about technique--machete use is, too. If you want to be able to work all day at clearing a field, or if you want to successfully fell a big tree, you need to know how to give your machete that little wrist flick at the end of the swing, or you'll end up wearing yourself out and getting blisters within minutes. The woman who taught me how to get the most out of my machete was a tiny thing--at 5 ft 2 inches I towered over her. But she could take down a tree in no time, and flick the head off a viper without batting an eye. It also makes a huge difference to have a machete that 'fits' you (and I assume the same is true of swords). I struggle to use my husband's machete--it's just too long for me. But using my shorter one, I can be just as effective as he is with his long one.

 

[Mythobeast]

Pix it is.Here's a shot of it sitting on a blanket. It was made by a group here in Colorado called Badger Blades.


Here is the sword in its scabbard on my bedroom wall. I'm far better with the sword than I am with the guitar or the archery glove, although my weapon of choice is the bo staff (off screen far left). Of the four belts on the left, the blue one is mine.

 

[Barbara]

Pix it is.Here's a shot of it sitting on a blanket. It was made by a group here in Colorado called Badger Blades.
View attachment 6650

Here is the sword in its scabbard on my bedroom wall. I'm far better with the sword than I am with the guitar or the archery glove, although my weapon of choice is the bo staff (off screen far left). Of the four belts on the left, the blue one is mine.
View attachment 6651

Oh, cool. LOVE IT. And ... a fellow swords fanatic on this site. At last. Where have you been?

Have you done any re-enactments? In the UK we have lots of groups.

Your wall looks very much like mine do around the house. We have guitars hanging everywhere (himself is a musician), and a punchbag (yes, it's mine) in the living room (don't ask), several of my swords are scattered or hanging in the bedroom (if a burglar comes in at night, I'd rather have them). My halberd is in the hall (for all I care a burglar can try and use it in a narrow hall, I'll be faster with my swords). My sword collection consists of several smalls swords from 1750ish, a Chinese officer's sword from 1890, a British officer's from WW1, Katana from WW2 (not mine though), a dagger from 18th C. All authentic antique. I'm desperately waiting for a cheap enough rapier (my kind of sword fighting. I've done a fair amount of it and love it, and I've got my British stage fight certificate which I'm proud of - I had the honour of tapping into Mike Loades' knowledge for a couple of years). I also have two Tai Chi practice swords. These days, Thai Chi sword is my default martial art (only when it comes to weapons. otherwise I'm a kung fu / Krav M gal). Currently, I don't have anyone else in my life who knows how to use a sword, so I have to practice my sword routine on my own in the garden. I haven't got an archery glove (yet!) but anything is possible, and my belts are in the loft (I think). I love bo staff (!) too but I'm rubbish at it. Ouch, fingers. Swords is my first choice (apart from the heavy two handers - I've seen some in museums and yikes, they're long and and heavy and not for me). And I love knife fights, and I've even used dust bin lids in a choreographed fight. Oh, and I'm keeping an eye out for antique pistols. I should have been a bloke.

I love that sword you have. It's similar to something I've been ogling for a while.

I'll check out Badger Blades. I've used Faganarms (then held my breath and prayed the sword makes it into the UK), but Faganarms can be pricey. There's a Brit company in France, I can't remember their name, where I got one of my small swords from. And I hear Albion Swords are good (they're on your side of the planet, I think).

Have you been to the UK? If not, you should visit the Wallace Collection.

I could go on and on and on.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

The 'other' classic story is where potential rivals/enemies/governments come together to defeat a common or external threat.

'We' did not kill the aliens in War of the Worlds, though we tried to, and accounted for a few. Nature dealt with them, so this was a classic hubris story. The hubris of the invaders who planned to rule the roost but did not know enough about the place they were coming to.

Like it or not, whether or not we see ourselves that way as individuals, we're an active, aggressive species. We were never at any point in our collective story, peaceful chewers of the cud, or gatherers like our cousins the gorillas. We're called hunter-gatherers for a reason, not gatherer- hunters. The appeal of violence in so many stories is our least harmful expression of that very aggression which is a key driver of human nature, which drove our development as a species, and in turn, our cities and technology but also provision and compassion for the weakest members in our societies.

The eternal dichotomy of the human condition.

"We were born of risen apes, not fallen angels, and the apes were armed killers besides. And so what shall we wonder at? Our murders and massacres and missiles, and our irreconcilable regiments? Or our treaties whatever they may be worth; our symphonies however seldom they may be played; our peaceful acres, however frequently they may be converted to battlefields; our dreams however rarely they may be accomplished. The miracle of man is not how far he has sunk but how magnificently he has risen. We are known among the stars by our poems, not our corpses."

• African Genesis: A Personal Investigation into the Animal Origins and Nature of Man (1961)

 

[Mythobeast]

Oh, cool. LOVE IT. And ... a fellow swords fanatic on this site. At last. Where have you been?
Have you done any re-enactments? In the UK we have lots of groups.

I like to think of myself as re-imagining more than recreating or re-enacting. I hung out with the SCA for a bit (for those unfamiliar, SCA stands for Students in Cardboard Armor). I was eventually driven away by the simultaneous insistence that sewing machines weren't authentic enough, but that arrows must have tennis balls on the end of them.

Punching bags don't belong in the living room? Where else would you put them? It's a living room, not a sitting room. The halberd sounds awesome. Due to my high-velocity spinning style, my pole arm of choice was always an ox tongue. I picked the bo staff for home defense specifically because of the ability to use it in tight hallways, plus the probability that an invader wouldn't know what to do with it. With the bo, I can take a typical swordsman 8 of 10 rounds. That is, after all, what the bo was designed for. Not sure how effective it would be against a rapier, though.

Here's something you'll enjoy -- a video of the bat'leth team I coached wiping the floor with some poor unfortunates at a science fiction convention.



Would you happen to have any links to your videos?

I've only been out of the US once, visiting Barbados. I really need to get around to visiting Europe one of these days, but Japan is currently higher on the list.

 

[Barbara]

I like to think of myself as re-imagining

That's a great way of looking at it.

I haven't joined any re-imagining groups. Women tend to be put in the kitchen. Nah. I can do that at home.

sewing machines weren't authentic enough, but that arrows must have tennis balls on the end of them.

I suppose sewing machines don't kill. But I hear you.

There was a case in the UK, or was it Germany? I forget, where a jouster got killed in a freak accident.

bo staff for home defense specifically because of the ability to use it in tight hallways

Jackie Chan would use coat hangers.

Here's something you'll enjoy

Yep, I enjoyed that. Thank you.
I stay away from the camera. Our historic classes were never filmed. My main stuff was back in the 90s where there was no YouTube. Gasp. Some stuff was on stage. Non of the martial arts clubs I frequent /have frequented film stuff. One was very traditional and didn't even do belts or any other grading. The stuff I do now, I don't bother filming. I'm not of that kind of generation.

visiting Europe

[/QUOTE]
You'll enjoy Europe. So much battle history

 

[Barbara]

There was one club I frequented for a while that had an average age of 10 years old. I got fed up pairing off with folk at knee hight.

@Mythobeast I'll dig out some pics of my swords and halberd and send it to you in a pm as not to highjack this thread too much. The halberd is rather lovely.