Editors

[Steve C]

I keep reading it is absolutely essential to have your book edited by a professional before self-publishing it. It is also expensive which I can understand as it is a time-consuming exercise.
My question is why? What do they do that a writer competent in grammar ( there are decent programmes that can help) and beta readers cannot do? Plus it is not too hard to read your book aloud to yourself in order to spot hiccups, even if you need to do it repeatedly.
I have also seen a couple of samples here that have been professionally edited which beggar belief and suggest court action might be in order and I am no editor.
I am at a point now where I must decide on whether to employ outside help or go with the help I've been given for free (mostly here, so big big thank yous) + trust myself to produce a readable book.
Would appreciate any feedback from those with experience of such matters.

 

[Barbara]

A few thoughts. You've probably thought of them already but I'm going to rabbit on anyway so get yourself one of these:

I've used a couple of different editing services for my first two novels (but only for the first 3 chapters to get them agent ready), and found the service varied greatly. But I picked cheaper editing services, which in my view was a mistake. I went for price not editor. I think you'll get what you pay for. It hasn't put me off though, and if I were to self-publish I would def make use of someone, I'd just be pickier about who. I used a slightly different editing service for the first ten pages of novel three and it was immensely useful and actually helped me develop my new MC (Mia).

I think the quality of the feedback depends on the editor. And the price, like you already mention. Someone with a low fee might not have the incentive to put your MS through the mill, while someone with a higher fee should. A high fee, though, doesn't necessarily guarantee quality.

I'd check out their credentials too. As with everything, they matter.

As for why not a beta reader only? Publishing houses use editors for a reason. If you self-publish, you're your own publishing house. If I were you, I'd publish to the same spec as the p house. Why do any less?

A professional editor has an incentive to give you good feedback. It's their livelihood. You might use them for the next book. A beta reader may wish you well of course, but they don't have the same incentive (that's not a judgment, btw). They're just doing you a favour. A good editor will think deeply which takes time, but beta readers might not spend hours pondering just one chapter (again, that's not a criticism, purely the reality that when we do stuff for free we do it differently). I also think a good editor has a different eye as well as the experience to see the nitty gritty which a beta reader might not have. And a good editor knows the market, genre expectations, they have seen similar works etc.

There are some WONDERFUL beta readers (on this site especially). Total gems who read with high skill. But I can't expect them to read to the kinds of depths as I'd like them to, and then keep going back and forth with my fixes. Like you say, it's so time consuming and an imposition to expect that kind of work for free which is why an editor can be good. Yes, we trade, but I can't expect a friend to go to the same lengths, even if it is reciprocal.

As for this:

I have also seen a couple of samples here that have been professionally edited which beggar belief and suggest court action might be in order and I am no editor.

Three things:

1) an editor can help someone's work, they can't save someone's work.
2) just because someone had a crit doesn't mean they can, or want to, sort what the editor has flagged.
3) that novel might not sell because it doesn't fit with current markets

From how I understand it there're several types of editors: structural, developmental, copy etc, you probably know more about that. You probably wouldn't need all.

If you won millions in the lottery, would you get an editor?

Of course, an editor isn't always right.

The guy on pop-up panel yesterday, John, said he uses a several (I think he said) types of editors. You could get in touch with him and ask who. John has a fair amount of success with his work, so....

You're self-publishing. Personally, I'd give it the best treatment possible, because the work will be out there for eternity. And well, it will cost you, but to build a loyal readership I'd do what is necessary (which includes a good cover designer).

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I always have my books professionally edited. I've used several different editors, and as Barbara said not all are equal. You want to find someone who edits in your genre--they'll give you the best bang for your buck because they'll know what works and doesn't work for your audience and can flag the problems. With that said, each editor has a different eye and will find different things. I find every edit is like a writing class focused solely on my writing--I learn stuff every time. I tend to use beta readers as my developmental editing--with a good mix of readers (some within my target market, some writers, some outside my target market), I can generally catch and correct the big stuff. Then after I've done the major edits and gone through once looking for small stuff, I send it to my editor. She does a copy edit--looking for inconsistencies, clunky wording, grammar and such. She sees things I simply can't--places where I've put a character in two locations at once, places where I've subtly started spelling a character's name differently, places where I've inserted the wrong character's name altogether, places where someone buckles up an already buckled seatbelt ... She flags A LOT of stuff, even after I think the MS is great. After her edits, I then go through and do (at least) three proof-reading passes--one from front to back on the screen, a second from back to front (one sentence at a time from the back of the book) on the screen, and then a final one from front to back on the proof copy. If I'm still finding too many problems, I do a second backwards reading on the print copy. By this time, I'm so sick of my book, I can't imagine anyone wanting to ever read it, so I publish it in disgust. LOL! But it goes out with very few errors, which is important to me--I'm a reader who sees every darned typo in a book and am irritated by them.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Oh, and two more notes--the 'cleaner' your manuscript is, the cheaper the editing (and the more detailed your editor can get in their comments). So do your own editing first, before paying someone else to do it--that way you're only paying them to find what you can't see.

Most professional editors will do a sample edit for you (the first 1000 words or so). Get a few sample edits before choosing an editor--some things in editing are down to style, not what's right or wrong. You want an editor who works with your own style.

 

[Jonny]

Hi Steve,

I think what both Barbara and Robinne have said is really great advice. It must be quite a daunting prospect laying your work open to such forensic scrutiny, but in the long run, and considering the self publishing aspect I think it's a wise course of action.

I've never done it myself, but as the others have said, there's quite a bit of important research work to do to get the right type of editor for your project - but it must make all the difference.

Very best of luck as I know the amount of really hard work you've put into this already. But I think you want to send it out there so well-polished and shining bright that you could shave in it.

 

[Victoria Bastedo]

I keep reading it is absolutely essential to have your book edited by a professional before self-publishing it. It is also expensive which I can understand as it is a time-consuming exercise.
My question is why? What do they do that a writer competent in grammar ( there are decent programmes that can help) and beta readers cannot do? Plus it is not too hard to read your book aloud to yourself in order to spot hiccups, even if you need to do it repeatedly.
I have also seen a couple of samples here that have been professionally edited which beggar belief and suggest court action might be in order and I am no editor.
I am at a point now where I must decide on whether to employ outside help or go with the help I've been given for free (mostly here, so big big thank yous) + trust myself to produce a readable book.
Would appreciate any feedback from those with experience of such matters.

I've been writing novels for almost twenty years, and I'm still figuring out all the things an editor can help you with. I'm now, finally, at the place where I feel I can self-publish, but please note, I still come here and ask my friends in my local writing group for help before I do. We just need help. One of the issues I've encountered is, that I personally know some paid editors just starting out, and I've learned to edit better than they do. It's like finding a good auto-mechanic or someone to cut your hair. Ask for advice in finding a good editor, also, know exactly what type of editing you need.

 

[Steve C]

Thanks Barbara.

get yourself one of these:

9am here so a bit early even for me it is

I used a slightly different editing service for the first ten pages of novel three and it was immensely useful and actually helped me develop my new MC (Mia).

I am toying with something similar re my first two chapters which is what a prospective reader is likely to preview before buying. Can you PM me with some details as personal recommendation trumps all, I feel?

If I were you, I'd publish to the same spec as the p house. Why do any less?

Because it is expensive and no guarantee sales will cover costs.

If you won millions in the lottery, would you get an editor?

Not necessarily. I'd still weigh the pros and cons. I need a new car though!

an editor can help someone's work, they can't save someone's work.

Well put. As a first-timer I may need saving but if an editor can't do that then ...?

 

[Steve C]

Thanks Robinne. Getting a better feel of what goes on.

She sees things I simply can't--places where I've put a character in two locations at once, places where I've subtly started spelling a character's name differently, places where I've inserted the wrong character's name altogether, places where someone buckles up an already buckled seatbelt

Ah, now this sort of stuff I am quite good at. I am happy with the consistency of my book. I've been through it enough bloody times!! And this is the main thing your editor does for you. You seem to do everything else yourself?

one from front to back on the screen, a second from back to front (one sentence at a time from the back of the book)

Amazing! Never thought of doing that. Will give it a try, but not sure I'll be able to stick with it.

the 'cleaner' your manuscript is, the cheaper the editing

I thought they charge by the word count. My book is 116k so I reckon a full edit is going to be around 1200 quid or more.

Most professional editors will do a sample edit for you (the first 1000 words or so). Get a few sample edits before choosing an editor--some things in editing are down to style, not what's right or wrong

Never knew that. Maybe I'll line up 20 of them and send them different samples and get the whole book done for free

 

[RK Wallis]

Fabulous advice from everyone above, the only thing I'd add is you need to find an editor you mesh with. I've only dipped my toe in with one (good) developmental editor and some of the things she picked up were priceless and showed me I had a lot to learn (which is basically why I hired her, I had no intention of self-publishing because it's harder to manage with my disability). Remember you're readers, don't they deserve the best product you can provide? Because there are a lot of polished books out there, traditional and self published, whose ranks do you want to join? Those who do or those who don't?

Three things:

1) an editor can help someone's work, they can't save someone's work.
2) just because someone had a crit doesn't mean they can, or want to, sort what the editor has flagged.
3) that novel might not sell because it doesn't fit with current markets

So on point!

This video could help (Jenna has a good vlog geared toward self publishing - warning, some language in videos, this one is tame). Info starts around 2 mins:

 

[Steve C]

I've been writing novels for almost twenty years, and I'm still figuring out all the things an editor can help you with. I'm now, finally, at the place where I feel I can self-publish, but please note, I still come here and ask my friends in my local writing group for help before I do. We just need help. One of the issues I've encountered is, that I personally know some paid editors just starting out, and I've learned to edit better than they do. It's like finding a good auto-mechanic or someone to cut your hair. Ask for advice in finding a good editor, also, know exactly what type of editing you need.

Yeah, it's good here. I would still be floundering if I hadn't stumbled across this place. It seems you now do everything yourself. I wish I could. It feels a bit of a lottery with editors and you might get back a load of suggestions which you totally disagree with leaving you back in square one and out of pocket.
I have dipped my toe in the water and requested a critique from a writer of my sort of book. Cost about a fifth of the price of a full edit but get a 10-15 page report which I hope will highlight what I need to do. I just hope he doesn't suggest I need a full edit!!!

 

[Barbara]

Because it is expensive and no guarantee sales will cover costs.

Yes it is expensive. I guess you have to take the view if it's worth the investment. No business functions without an upfront set up cost. When I started up I spent a grand on products and equipment. That was a lot to me but not a lot compared to other businesses but I needed to spend it to kick off. I ran it for 15 years then got bored cos I hated the industry. As an author YOU are your business creating your product. I would treat it the same way you launch any new business. Get a good product with good branding and a good marketing strategy then run.

You can fund stuff with cutting out chocolate (GASP), beer (YIKES) coffees (OH NO) at starbucks (well, ok maybe), etc it just takes a little longer to get there.

I agree you have no guarantee. But sales don't necessarily come from the quality of the product, not initially at least. They come from your marketing strategy. But the quality ensures trust in the brand and ongoing sales i.e. your second book, so this novel needs to be a strong debut. You could write a terrible book but with a fab strategy still sell tons. Until the reviews come in.

You have a lot of uniqueness about you, which you can build on when you establish the brand that is you. But that's now going down the marketing subject.

 

[Barbara]

Ps

. As a first-timer I may need saving but if an editor can't do that then ...

I haven't seen much of your work so can't comment on what kind of editng you need. But from what I have seen, you definitely don't need saving. You've got a good commercal story which I think could do well. I hope to see it out there.

 

[David Y]

Yes it is expensive. I guess you have to take the view if it's worth the investment. No business functions without an upfront set up cost. When I started up I spent a grand on products and equipment. That was a lot to me but not a lot compared to other businesses but I needed to spend it to kick off. I ran it for 15 years then got bored cos I hated the industry. As an author YOU are your business creating your product. I would treat it the same way you launch any new business. Get a good product with good branding and a good marketing strategy then run.

You can fund stuff with cutting out chocolate (GASP), beer (YIKES) coffees (OH NO) at starbucks (well, ok maybe), etc it just takes a little longer to get there.

I agree you have no guarantee. But sales don't necessarily come from the quality of the product, not initially at least. They come from your marketing strategy. But the quality ensures trust in the brand and ongoing sales i.e. your second book, so this novel needs to be a strong debut. You could write a terrible book but with a fab strategy still sell tons. Until the reviews come in.

You have a lot of uniqueness about you, which you can build on when you establish the brand that is you. But that's now going down the marketing subject.

I suppose too there comes a point when we have to consider setting ourselves up as companies, rather than individuals, then the outlays you and @Steve C mention can be attributed to business costs, and the sales are taxed differently too? Apart from the basics, I wouldn't know where to start. Does anyone know if there any posts on Litopia about this, please?

 

[Steve C]

That's one advantage of living in Thailand - no UK taxes even if my receipts are sent there. My God, I'm a tax exile! Always wanted to be one of those

 

[Barbara]

That's one advantage of living in Thailand - no UK taxes even if my receipts are sent there. My God, I'm a tax exile! Always wanted to be one of those

Ah, yes, maybe, but ... because I did my taxes, I could make use of the government COVID self-employment income support scheme which meant I could sit on my lazy backside (with a tightened belt) and write, instead of worrying my time away in lockdown. Sometimes it pays off to be above board.

I suppose too there comes a point when we have to consider setting ourselves up as companies, rather than individuals,

Are you in the UK?

An accountant would know more, but I think as a writer you'd always be a self-employed individual, not a company. From what I know, writers are like musicians, actors, etc. I'm a self-employed therapist / sole trader as my day job. I'd never set myself up as a company. I don't need to. It's easier to be an individual. The outlays we mentioned above still come into consideration as a sole trader. I can claim all sorts against taxes. I'll PM you some tips.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Ah, now this sort of stuff I am quite good at. I am happy with the consistency of my book. I've been through it enough bloody times!! And this is the main thing your editor does for you. You seem to do everything else yourself?

I generally have 8-12 beta readers, so that's hardly doing it by myself. LOL! Consistency isn't only one thing my editor looks for--she'll smooth out clunky sentences or overlong paragraphs, address any remaining plot problems (not necessarily a 'copy editing' job, but she's good that way), and check to make sure I'm using the appropriate language/spelling (I work in both British and American English). She'll also warn me if something isn't quite on genre (usually not an issue after beta reads, but because she's being paid, she looks more closely than beta readers).

Amazing! Never thought of doing that. Will give it a try, but not sure I'll be able to stick with it.

It's truly a horrible experience. If it weren't so darned effective...

I thought they charge by the word count.

Yes...and no. Many will have a look at your sample and if it's 'clean' they'll give you a slightly better rate, because they know it will take them less time. I even had one editor read my sample and tell me she didn't think it needed a copy edit--she'd just do it at her proofreading rate (which was much cheaper). Having done editing myself, I know that from an editor's standpoint, you can provide much more 'picky' editing if you're not fixing every third word. So as an author, I want to give a clean manuscript, because I'll get a better final edit.

 

[Steve C]

Having done editing myself,

Interesting. You are an editor but feel you need an editor for your own work. I guess it's the old thing about not being able to view your own stuff objectively.

 

[Hannah F]

Ah, yes, maybe, but ... because I did my taxes, I could make use of the government COVID self-employment income support scheme which meant I could sit on my lazy backside (with a tightened belt) and write, instead of worrying my time away in lockdown. Sometimes it pays off to be above board.


Are you in the UK?

An accountant would know more, but I think as a writer you'd always be a self-employed individual, not a company. From what I know, writers are like musicians, actors, etc. I'm a self-employed therapist / sole trader as my day job. I'd never set myself up as a company. I don't need to. It's easier to be an individual. The outlays we mentioned above still come into consideration as a sole trader. I can claim all sorts against taxes. I'll PM you some tips.

You can make yourself a limited company even if you are an individual, but, personally, in the UK, I don't see the point, because as @Barbara says, self-employment status is usually all you require. Perhaps, if you're raking it in and setting up a legacy, or if you expect to get sued . . .

An accountant will be able to answer your questions though much better than the writers on this site (unless they are accountants of course).

 

[RK Wallis]

You can make yourself a limited company even if you are an individual, but, personally, in the UK, I don't see the point, because as @Barbara says, self-employment status is usually all you require. Perhaps, if you're raking it in and setting up a legacy, or if you expect to get sued . . .

An accountant will be able to answer your questions though much better than the writers on this site (unless they are accountants of course).

Bear in mind, you need enough sales before you worry about an accountant. As Hannah said, worrying about tax before you earn the money is pointless.

Do you have a tax threshold in your place of residence for tax purposes? Many first time authors don’t reach that, not because the product isn’t good, but because they haven’t got a following yet.

The best person to ask is @Robinne Weiss, she’s been there.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Interesting. You are an editor but feel you need an editor for your own work. I guess it's the old thing about not being able to view your own stuff objectively.

I wouldn't call myself an editor--not of fiction anyway. For a few years, I did editing for pollution prevention training manuals and later, for environmental policy documents. I'm completely unqualified to edit fiction. But even if I were writing environmental policy documents, I'd hire an editor. I find it impossible to catch my own mistakes--I know what I mean, and so if something is confusing or wrong, I won't pick it up because my brain fills in the information.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Bear in mind, you need enough sales before you worry about an accountant. As Hannah said, worrying about tax before you earn the money is pointless.

Do you have a tax threshold in your place of residence for tax purposes? Many first time authors don’t reach that, not because the product isn’t good, but because they haven’t got a following yet.

The best person to ask is @Robinne Weiss, she’s been there.

I've no idea what the laws are like in the UK. Here in NZ, my understanding is it's always technically beneficial (from a tax standpoint) to set yourself up as a limited liability company (though not at all required). However, I've never done it--my small-business income has never been terribly big anyway (so my tax burden has been small), and to set up an LLC takes a fair bit of paperwork. I also pay taxes in the US (because I'm a citizen in both NZ and the US), and have never set up a company there either--just work as a sole trader. Again, not because it wouldn't have had some benefit, just that the benefit has always been too little to justify the dreaded extra paperwork involved.

When my business involved science outreach to children, I carried business insurance to deal with any potential liability issues. As a writer, I reckon that's not necessary (my books don't bite, like the animals I used to take into schools could ).

 

[E G Logan]

I thought they charge by the word count. My book is 116k so I reckon a full edit is going to be around 1200 quid or more.

Not necessarily – when I edit, I charge by the hour (but I am mainly an academic editor).
Hence, cleaner copy takes less time, costs less.