Does anybody know what this is?

[Emily]

I am in the middle of reading Five Children and It (E. Nesbit) to my smallies and we came across a sentence that I have not been able to decipher; Google drew a blank too. Anyone have any idea what this is?:

"...or to be able to lick Simpkins Minor thoroughly when he went back to school."

What is a Simpkins Minor?! I told the children it was "an English thing", and now they all want me to bring back a Simpkins Minor to lick when I come home from the Litfest (they think it involves sugar, but I'm not as confident that it has anything to do with edibles).

 

[P C Lieunoir]

In English boy's private schools, everyone was (is?) called by their surname. If there were brothers, the yonger brother would get the word minor added to his surname to distinguish him from his older sib. Dont think it happened in girls' schools...

 

[Emily]

Thank you. I'll have to carefully explain what "licked" meant in this context so...

 

[Paul Whybrow]

It's probably best if you steer clear of stories set in British public schools with their fagging system!

Fagging - Wikipedia

 

[Webbwalker]

Thank you. I'll have to carefully explain what "licked" meant in this context so...

Licked = beaten in a fight. Presumably (without the whole quote/context to hand), He's saying he's hoping to be able to thrash Simpkins Minor thoroughly in a fight when he gets back to school.

And some girl's schools did use minor and major, and sometimes one, two three, if there were multiple sisters. Mine did.

My private education has proved useful at last.

 

[Webbwalker]

It's probably best if you steer clear of stories set in British public schools with their fagging system!

Fagging - Wikipedia

Peter Cook's autiobiography has a bit to say on that, if anyone needs context.

 

[Emily]

It's probably best if you steer clear of stories set in British public schools with their fagging system!

We lightly touched on it in some Enid Blyton stories, my kids are completely fascinated by English boarding schools... the "jolly hockey sticks" kind of ones; I think I'll let them discover the other kind themselves later on

And some girl's schools did use minor and major, and sometimes one, two three, if there were multiple sisters.

So I'd be Rainsford Minor One (second eldest) and subsequent siblings would be Minor Two and so on? Oh, that hilarious. We are going to have a whole new naming system in my house, I can feel it!!

 

[Leonora]

The charm of boarding schools never fades in fiction. Malory Towers. Hogwarts.

 

[E G Logan]

"...or to be able to lick Simpkins Minor thoroughly when he went back to school."

I think "lick thoroughly" may be as in bash the daylights out of, beat.

I'm not sure what the middle brothers were called, the biggest was definitely Maximus or Major and the smallest Minimus, or Minor. Maybe Rainsford secunda? See Jennings and Darbyshire, etc, that's a whole series, and very funny. Or the Billy Bunter books.

I remember I had to explain a coal scuttle to my son when I was reading him one of the William books. No one in London has had coal for many years -- we had underfloor heating. And the grandparents had logs.

 

[Leonora]

I've resurrected my coal scuttle just in time for them to ban coal fires, even in the country.

 

[Jonny]

Yep, licked in public school vernacular is beaten - thrashed etc.

So - to be able to lick Simpkins Minor thoroughly when he went back to school."

trans: to be able to give Simpkins Minor (as opposed to say Simpkins Major his / her older brother / sister - or Simpkins Minimus his / her younger brother / sister a good thumping.

I didn't spend my formative years Reading Billy / Bessie Bunter stories for nothing you know

 

[Webbwalker]

See Jennings and Darbyshire, etc, that's a whole series, and very funny. Or the Billy Bunter books.

I used to love the Jenning's books. I have a few, haven't read one for years. You've made me want to read them all again now.

I had to explain a coal scuttle to my son when I was reading him one of the William books. No one in London has had coal for many years -- we had underfloor heating. And the grandparents had logs.

I can send him a picture if he wants. I still have and use one.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

When I look back on my grammar school it seems like I was part of some historical anachronism, even when I started there in 1966. Alleyne's Grammar School was founded in 1558, as the rousing school song attested. An all boys school, we wore dark blue uniforms, including caps, with the school crest embroidered on the cap and jacket chest pocket. When entering the grounds through the school gate, we dipped our heads and doffed our caps or forelocks in respect of the old boys who'd lost their lives in various wars; their names were engraved on plaques attached to the brick gate posts.

In 1966, many of the teachers, who were known as masters, still wore gowns and mortar boards when they taught.

This ridiculous outfit was phased out as the 1970s began, though one elderly master sometimes wore his to annoy the headmaster!

Corporal punishment was still in force, if detentions hadn't worked to discipline a boy. 'Six of the best' bent over the headmaster's desk, while he thrashed your buttocks with a willow cane gave a lad a reputation and made the head feared and loathed.

Although it wasn't a fee-paying school, it was a prestigious place to study and snooty with it. I soon worked out that there were three groups of pupils whose fate was quickly decided. Alleyne's was a feeder school for Oxford and Cambridge Universities and if you weren't good enough for them, then some redbrick university in the provinces, or, heaven forbid a polytechnic. The second group of boys was steered towards professions, such as banking, accounting or lawyering. The dregs were largely ignored by the masters, as they were headed towards waged jobs as labourers or factory workers. All of us were expected to present ourselves for action, should another world war start. Up until 1964, the school had its own rifle corps, where boys were instructed in the use of a Lee Enfield .303 on the remotest playing fields shooting at targets set up against a bank of sand

All but two of the masters were male. The women were referred to as 'lady masters', rather than mistresses! Several of the masters were gay, though this was usually accepted graciously, as Alleyne's was a polite place, though one inexperienced teacher was tormented about his sexuality to such a degree that he committed suicide by hanging himself in the fives court.

The masters referred to us by our surnames, including the minor and major appellations, and we called one another by our surnames or whatever horrid nickname we'd earnt.

It was an intimidating place to study, as I realised I was part of history, one of thousands of boys through four centuries. This was brought home to me by the wear on the stairs that led to the upper floors of The Grange, the oldest part of the school. I was following in the footsteps of ghosts.

 

[Jonny]

Interesting post @Paul Whybrow

I read all the books as a youngster Bunter - Billy & Bessie (lots of references to fives bats in Billy tales) Interestingly of course they fell victim to the rising tide of political correctness. Trying to get hold of copies of now isn't particularly easy but I do have one in my bookcase.




Also read all the Jennings & Derbyshire books I could get my hands on.

I think it was the evocation of all that grounding at a young age that make me feel immediately at home with the Harry Potter series.

 

[Emily]

Crikey @Paul Whybrow , sounds charming.... We had "Christian Brothers" over here, a kind of a lay priest who taught boys (we had nuns). From what I gather, they were mostly gay and savage. I remember my uncle telling me of the ones that they all avoided being anywhere alone with. They were usually teaching little boys The beatings were vicious. I think most men I know have very ripe memories of the Christian brothers, who weren't terribly Christian after all.

See Jennings and Darbyshire, etc, that's a whole series, and very funny

I must do a search, I've never heard of them!

 

[Jonny]

I must do a search, I've never heard of them!

Here you go. Little bit of background then an old radio "audio book"

Harking back to gentler times and before pandemics

Jennings Goes to School

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Whatever the sexuality of the masters and lady masters at my school, they were entirely benevolent and not predatory at all. The Physics master and History master were a long-established couple who lived together. Incidentally, the Physics master also taught a classical music appreciation class, in which he got us boys to sing the first seven minutes of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, groups of us impersonating sections of the orchestra! It almost put me off classical music for life and I still shudder when I hear the opening bars.



Not all was sweet harmony, as the popular and long-serving headmaster who'd been there when I started retired and was replaced by one of the most repellent men I've known. A manipulative psychopath, he'd previously been a lecturer at Oxford University but was let go for plying undergraduates with marijuana before sexually molesting them. Somehow, he got the post of head at a school full of innocent young boys! He once attempted to cane me, for the infraction of not accompanying him into a pub when we were on a school trip to Stratford-upon-Avon to see a Shakespeare play. He'd selected three of the most handsome boys to travel in his Vauxhall saloon and was noticeably drunk when we set off. He drank from a hip flask as we motored erratically northwards. I and another boy refused to go into the pub, though one lad did.

My mate was called into his study first the next day and was soon out again warning me that he'd try to cane me. His father was a police officer, which dissuaded the head from carrying things further, but when I got in there, he immediately grabbed me. He'd forgotten that I boxed and I easily shoved him off me. He reeled back from one blow smashing his head into his framed degree certificate on the wall, breaking the glass. I thought that I was going to get expelled! Instead, he ordered me out of his study. He never spoke to me again for the next two years and gave me an indifferent leaving report even though my grades were good. It made me realise how evil people in positions of power can wreck the lives of the powerless.

Fast forward ten years and I'd decided to retrain as a teacher, after being a librarian. Before going to teacher training college and to raise funds for the life of a student, I was working in the local pub. A couple of my old masters entered the bar and ordered beer. I asked my geography teacher what became of the evil headmaster. It came as no surprise to me, that he'd been fired after the school secretary caught him buggering a 14-year-old boy in his study! The incident was hushed up, as was the practice in those days.

I don't know what became of the headmaster, but I hope it was painful and humiliating.

 

[Emily]

Paul, there are many extraordinary novels in those posts alone...!

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Paul, there are many extraordinary novels in those posts alone...!

Maybe...I find trawling through my past disturbing. Some things are better left undisturbed. Briefly described, they surface for a moment before sinking to the depths again. Expanding upon them would give bad memories oxygen and life. I should be a psychiatrist!

 

[Eva Ulian]

I think "lick thoroughly" may be as in bash the daylights out of, beat.

I think so too. "I'll lick the living daylights out of you if you don't shut up!" Typical conversations between friends in the backstreets of Walsall where I was brought up.

 

[Eva Ulian]

In English boy's private schools, everyone was (is?) called by their surname. If there were brothers, the yonger brother would get the word minor added to his surname to distinguish him from his older sib.

And this is how you get working class lingo blend with the upper class- and all in one sentence- stroke of genius, I would say.

 

[Webbwalker]

I read all the books as a youngster Bunter - Billy & Bessie (lots of references to fives bats in Billy tales) Interestingly of course they fell victim to the rising tide of political correctness. Trying to get hold of copies of now isn't particularly easy but I do have one in my bookcase.

Whack-O is played from time to time, and is on at the moment (Sunday, 8am, Radio 4 Extra. Followed by Harry Worth. Quite the blast from the past. ). I was quite surprised to catch it by accident one morning. I suppose they stick it on for the oldies . It's not at all PC!