Nicole Wilson
Basic
- Jun 14, 2015
You probably pressed "reply" which drags his post into the text box where you type.
Do Novelists Have to Be Politically Correct?
- Thread starter Paul Whybrow
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Paul Whybrow
Full Member
- Jun 20, 2015
- Thread starter
- #32
A strange aspect about political correctness is that the people who are being correct paint themselves into a corner with their moral rectitude, while being insulted by the people they've shown respect to. Minority groups of whatever race, sexual persuasion, political belief, physical or mental disability aren't guardians of right and wrong, and they can be just as bigoted as anybody.
It's common for jokes to be told about a neighbouring country's residents. Certain nationalities come in for a lot of stick, such as the Mexicans, French, Irish, Russians and Germans, but disrespect is common worldwide—Swedish people look down on people from Finland, for instance.
When I lived in Atlanta I ran a landscaping and house remodelling business. We had twenty regular full-time employees, but hired day labourers as and when needed. Many of these were probably illegals, as they were chosen from where they congregated at filling stations on the main highways. All sorts of nations, skin colours and religions were represented, and some of them hated each other. As one of the few white-skinned workers, the boss and a Brit at that, I had to be politically correct but that didn't matter to the temporary hands who formed odd factions. For some reason, which I could never fathom, the Haitians were the most vilified by other races.
There's a similar situation with sexuality.I couldn't care less what someone does with their genitals, as long as they're happy and not hurting anyone vulnerable. There's lots of inflammatory insults that straight people aren't meant to use, but which are bandied about as a matter of habit within the gay or lesbian community as descriptions of types and even used affectionately. I once worked as a barman in a busy pub, where one of the regular drinkers a 65 year-old antiques dealer answered to the name of Queen Brian.
One of the most unexpected examples of double standards I came across was when I worked with the deaf. I knew a bit of sign language, and was shocked to see hearing people disparaged as 'hearies', along with some insulting comments signed about them to their face. This is an advantage of speaking a largely secret language, I guess, but it made me realise that we all carry some unwarranted dislikes within us.
It's common for jokes to be told about a neighbouring country's residents. Certain nationalities come in for a lot of stick, such as the Mexicans, French, Irish, Russians and Germans, but disrespect is common worldwide—Swedish people look down on people from Finland, for instance.
When I lived in Atlanta I ran a landscaping and house remodelling business. We had twenty regular full-time employees, but hired day labourers as and when needed. Many of these were probably illegals, as they were chosen from where they congregated at filling stations on the main highways. All sorts of nations, skin colours and religions were represented, and some of them hated each other. As one of the few white-skinned workers, the boss and a Brit at that, I had to be politically correct but that didn't matter to the temporary hands who formed odd factions. For some reason, which I could never fathom, the Haitians were the most vilified by other races.
There's a similar situation with sexuality.I couldn't care less what someone does with their genitals, as long as they're happy and not hurting anyone vulnerable. There's lots of inflammatory insults that straight people aren't meant to use, but which are bandied about as a matter of habit within the gay or lesbian community as descriptions of types and even used affectionately. I once worked as a barman in a busy pub, where one of the regular drinkers a 65 year-old antiques dealer answered to the name of Queen Brian.
One of the most unexpected examples of double standards I came across was when I worked with the deaf. I knew a bit of sign language, and was shocked to see hearing people disparaged as 'hearies', along with some insulting comments signed about them to their face. This is an advantage of speaking a largely secret language, I guess, but it made me realise that we all carry some unwarranted dislikes within us.
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Fran Connor
Guest
In our own lives I think we often mix up PC with good manners. If you have good manners then you don't have to worry about being PC. But the thread refers to its use in our work. Unless it is intended to incite hatred and/or violence against an individual or group or could reasonably be expected to do so, then I do believe we have a free rein to do as we think is relevant to the time and location the action in the writing takes place or express our POV. I would not advocate censorship. We all have a choice. If we don't like what we read we can put it down or, God forbid, burn it. But the burning is for the individual to carry out not the state or its agents. When they do it, it's called fascism. Having said all this, we should really be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes and not search out something for which we can then take offense or sue. Remember the mantra when we were kids and being picked on 'Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me'. Anyway, that is my humble opinion. Fran Connor
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Stephen Drake
Guest
I disagree, @Fran Connor . Being PC has nothing to do with manners. In fact, a lot of the "PC Police" (self-appointed) in the US have no idea what manners are. I equate being PC with group-think (shades of "1984"). It is a tool used to confuse and control. Personally, I think the world is on the cusp of becoming the world that Orwell described in "1984".
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Fran Connor
Guest
Stephen, my point is that if you have good manners you don't have to worry about being PC. I am not equating manners with PC. The PC police may be aggrieved with us but they will not have a any grounds for taking us to task if we have treated people fairly and how we would like to be treated ourselves which is what good manners is about in my opinion.
- Aug 17, 2014
The sorry fact is that on the extreme left we have an attempt to control the debate by labelling opponents as -ists of various kinds (many of them are, obviously!) while on the right you have populist shock locks like Trump pushing buttons and equally trying to control the debate in their favour.
KG Christopher
Basic
- Oct 25, 2015
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K.J. Simmill
Guest
Hiya, to be honest I think political correctness is writer's discretion, although I am sure all characters aren't equally respectful of each other, or we would just choose from uniform cookie cutter personalities to work with.
That said, I happened upon a conversation myself where Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn was getting abused due to the frequency of the word Nigger in his work. What people need to realise is we can't whitewash over things in history we don't like, if we keep doing so, soon there will have been no world wars, no Holocaust and the world will be a shiny place filled with angry people who have lost large portions of their heritage because people don't want to believe they happened. Times change, but the past should not be forgotten, it's only by the past we can learn and shape the future. Ignoring something because it isn't nice, doesn't change the fact it happened.
Oops off on a tangent there.
If your character is racist (for example), then it is unlikely he'll treat everyone the same, and let's face it, not everyone in the world is politically correct, thus it would be ridiculous to believe everyone in a book world is.
That said, I happened upon a conversation myself where Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn was getting abused due to the frequency of the word Nigger in his work. What people need to realise is we can't whitewash over things in history we don't like, if we keep doing so, soon there will have been no world wars, no Holocaust and the world will be a shiny place filled with angry people who have lost large portions of their heritage because people don't want to believe they happened. Times change, but the past should not be forgotten, it's only by the past we can learn and shape the future. Ignoring something because it isn't nice, doesn't change the fact it happened.
Oops off on a tangent there.
If your character is racist (for example), then it is unlikely he'll treat everyone the same, and let's face it, not everyone in the world is politically correct, thus it would be ridiculous to believe everyone in a book world is.
Nicole Wilson
Basic
- Jun 14, 2015
Just a sidenote to this, they're actually trying to get the n-word removed from all of Twain's work.
Katie-Ellen
Full Member
- Sep 25, 2014
Let story be king, and if it is vile and objectionable, let the meaning of the story decree its success or failure. Not purpose. We don't want lecturing. The Klansman was the vilest story I ever read. I wish I hadn't read it, because of the terribleness. However, the goodies lost their lives, totally unjust and tragic, but the baddy sheriff lost his child. It was actually a deeply moral tale.
The film '300', bloody, violent, perverse, likewise, is a deeply moral tale of a king who decides he must do his duty, no matter what the personal cost.
The film '300', bloody, violent, perverse, likewise, is a deeply moral tale of a king who decides he must do his duty, no matter what the personal cost.
Paul Whybrow
Full Member
- Jun 20, 2015
- Thread starter
- #43
Retrospective correction of racist and sexist language can be over-sensitive as well as a bit nutty. An art gallery in Amsterdam has altered the titles of paintings which have potentially offensive words in them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ch-gallery-removes-racist-artwork-titles.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ch-gallery-removes-racist-artwork-titles.html
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Fran Connor
Guest
I cringe at the thought of someone considering that they have the right or creative ability to edit Mark Twain. The N word crops up in his writing and it is a nasty word that has no useful contribution to modern life. But, oh dear, it is of another time and is crucial to understanding the period and people where the stories are set. We can't or should I say we must not try to change history in the form of written works or art. We can learn from it.
Carol Rose
Basic
- Sep 13, 2014
Yep. The whole idea of white-washing any written work gives me a creepy 1984 vibe.
KG Christopher
Basic
- Oct 25, 2015
I think this is the tragedy. I am reminded of a film - The Cannon Ball Run, with Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder, a really funny film. There is one scene where they have to get back on the train and Gene Wilder has to 'black up' and pretend to be a black man, he is taught how to speak, how to walk by a cleaner in the toilets. Its a very funny scene, poking fun at white sensibilities more than anything else. I saw it recently, probably 2 years ago on Channel 4 in the UK, and they cut the whole scene, because it was deemed offensive.
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Jennifer Stone
Guest
It is a shame such things get cut these days, on the premise that someone might get offended.
Are you sure it's 'The Cannon Ball Run'? If so, there's another film by the same name. Or I don't remember Gene Wilder being in the film I'm thinking of.
It's... Captain Chaos!!
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K.J. Simmill
Guest
That's what spurred the discussion, but I couldn't find the link to the conversation to double check I had remembered it correctly
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