Help! Boring male characters

[Serra K]

I'll put this here, I know you like your archetypal stuff @SarahC
Can't recommend this channel enough Like Stories of Old. You could check it out, there are other videos on the masculine archetypes, like the king, the warrior, the magician. No matter what kind of story you are writing, I think anyone can gain insight and inspiration from them. It is as confusing for women to understand men as it is for men to understand women, which can make writing some characters difficult for all of us.

 

[Jason L.]

Thank you so much for engaging with this conversation!
@Rich.--Wow. You sound like the best dad I can possibly imagine.
@Brayati--I was thinking about your foster kids. I absolutely think that this might be at the heart of some of the gender differences that reflect some of the ways in which our schools might be failing young men. If women are recalling the abstract more easily, and men are "learning by doing" then having a character who is a doofus in some ways but signals their love by building a birdhouse or quietly repairing a bike can give your reader all the feels.

Tl;dr: deep thoughts on literature, representation, teasing, sports culture

A word about sports talk. Sports talk is a common lingo that we can use to talk to strangers, in the same way that the British talk about the weather. We aren't always watching it because we even like the game (although sometimes we have played it and find it exciting still). We are watching it so that we can open up conversations with strangers about a topic that is both neutral and interesting. If I said that Barella is a better midfielder than Gundogan, I am signalling a variety of loyalties, a trove of statistics at my beck and call, and a willingness to put myself on the line, even if it meant teasing--because I would be wrong. In the right social circumstances--on the job, waiting in line, at a bar--this exchange of information could work the same way that it does when I meet my neighbor downstairs and inquire about her dog. It has now broken the ice and we get a sense of each other. Nobody will seriously hate me if I declare myself all in for a team that they don't like (although let's not push it. In the UK--please correct me if I am wrong--there are literally laws about whether you can cheer for the visiting team. El Salvador and Honduras briefly went into a military clash in 1969 over soccer/football). They might be disappointed in me for having bad taste, or they might find it something that non-personal that they can tease me about. ("So how are those Hornets doing? Are you still hurting from how the ball was stolen right out of Zeller's hands? Boy that hurt my heart because I thought, Poor Jason. He's probably in hell right now because he's still a Hornets guy.")

At a certain point, we have a choice. After several hundred hours of enthusiastic discussion about this, we can either stagnate to this level, and have these reassuringly normal conversations that can distract us from the misery and tedium of our lives. Or, after a while, one of these friends becomes closer, and after building up our confidence and feeling of safety by talking about hockey statistics or golf stats (Full disclosure, there are some people who believe that golf is not a sport. And I happen to be one of them, so I cannot imagine people getting passionate about golf, but you do you. Weirdo.) suddenly things take that personal turn. It follows the same rule and pattern of the car confession. "Jesus, did you see the game yesterday? I was sitting there screaming at Crosby, saying TAKE THE SHOT, TAKE THE SHOT!" "It was painful to watch. I heard that they are trading in that guy from the Canadiens." "They need to do something... Allison left me this morning." "Jesus man, what happened?" "I don't know. I thought we were happy."

Okay, a word about teasing, because I have a lot of thoughts in my mind.

Teasing is something we do, and girls don't. Girls, I hate to say this, go way more personal and way more vicious. If one girl said to another "Did you comb your hair with an eggbeater?" (Okay that was my grandma's expression, so I don't know if people still use it) it would be the kind of insult worthy of Mean Girls level villains. Guys? Not so much. Even virtual strangers can tease me about impersonal things, and declaring my sports knowledge gives them that avenue, because very few people, when sober, will actually have anything more than a laugh about it. As friends become closer, teasing can, very occasionally, take a personal turn, but don't get carried away with that. A close friend might make that comment about my hair with a laugh and I would be like, "Oh, wow. Does it look that bad?" And the next thing that would happen is that that friend would be expected to do something. He's my friend. He has my back. He might tell me that there is a flat spot, or pick that piece of lint out. This is not an attack. It's kind of a constructive criticism that should be coupled with some kind of action. But there's a limit. Male friends can also be negative and try to diminish each other. Part of maturing is being able to suss out when people are teasing you because they like you, and when they are doing it because they dislike themselves and can't cope with it.

Also, that does not apply to LGBT people in the same way. Trauma has made us sharp, and there is a tradition of what's called "reading for filth." It's mostly done by very femme men, but I have seen it happen in other contexts as well. Think of it as a roasting that you are supposed to laugh at--once in a while--but afterwards, it is expected that the person who has just read you should behave in a warm or chummy way to prove that this was all genuinely in good fun. They'll buy you drinks, pat your back, gossip about others, and there can be a sense of camaraderie. Can be: there are some people who dislike it and find it unnecessarily vicious. I am one of them.

I think that one of the major problems that the OP was writing about is that there is simply less writing out there that is focused on men's internal lives. Much of the writing is by women, for women, and much of it echoes earlier writers. If I were fifteen, didn't like fantasy too much, look at the reading options. Let's say I wanted to read something that reassured me that, as an adult:

1. that my friendships would be deep and meaningful.
2. that I would recover from traumas (childhood and otherwise) in a psychologically realistic way
3. that there was a path in which, via hard work, I would achieve my dreams, even if it meant starting at the bottom.
4. that my self-worth was NOT predicated upon finding "the right" partner.

All three of those things sound pretty great and reasonable, right? Okay, name three books in which women accomplish at least three of these objectives, AND pass the Bechdel test. I'll bet that you can name ten without breaking a sweat.

Now do the same for a boy. Ask yourself how old these titles are. If you are thinking about Johnny Tremaine, or The Three Musketeers, think about how dated these books are. Does this pass that same Bechdel test? Probably not. And for those of you who were like, Harry Potter! Harry Potter! remember that this hypothetical boy isn't into fantasy. He wants a realistic depiction in which an ordinary young man without superpowers lives a life that resembles the life he wants. Most of the books that are marketed toward young men fail this test. Is Jack Reacher recovering from traumas? Are his friendships, ultimately, meaningful?

Not convinced? Recently, out of curiousity, I googled "books for young men" and almost all of them were books that young men should read to make them better men: attentive listeners, non-sexists, anti-racists. It was very prescriptive. It was predicated on the idea that these young men need to be lectured to. Doing the same for young women I found a lot more fiction books. That means that many of these same lessons are distilled, often inadvertently, into the characters they read. Studies have shown that when we read, our brains are often flashing with the same distress or pleasure as if these were real situations. In other words, our emotional centers are not processing that there is a difference between these people, and the brain therefore takes a lesson from it. (It's an old study from the early 2010s, but there's an article about it here). If you didn't learn how devastating molestation can be to the victims because you had a wonderful family, reading Vladimir Nabukoff's Lolita can give you the first glimpses of insight. If you want to understand why someone would be so constrained by honor that he must forsake even love for it, Edith Wharton's The Age of Innocence can help. If you want to look at the frustrations that LGBT people feel about queerbaiting and representation of gay people in the media, then Britta Lunden's Ship It can give you that extra flash of insight. Looking at how trauma can play out in the wake of a school shooting? Well, Eli Easton's Boy, Shattered is both a psychological profile of people coping with this trauma in varying ways and a beautifully written story of self-acceptance. It's also marketed towards women and LGBT youth.

If I were a young, straight man, I probably wouldn't read pick it up--not due to anti-gay sentiment, but because I would want to see something that I could resonate with. That's why I am still waiting to read The Kite Runner. I know it's a great book. Everybody says so. And there will be a moment in which I say, "I really want to experience life through the eyes of these people." It hasn't happened yet. But that's why we have TBR lists.

A lot of representation of men is done by women who haven't gone through the trouble of understanding men. This is especially true in MM. I've read some wonderful books, and I have also read some books in which one character thinks and acts like a girl, and the other thinks and acts like a bad romance novel hero. Eighty percent, and probably more, of these books are written by women, for women. (Yes! Really!)

Personally, I try not to mind it. If I don't like it, I remind myself that this author is not writing for me. After all, why would they? Statistically, gay and bisexual men are a pretty scant portion of the population. There are ten or twenty times more female readership for this genre than for me. But periodically I do get irritated, because she has two gay people acting the same way in public that a straight couple would. No. Even as an adult, I would never kiss or hold hands in public with my husband without being EXTREMELY situationally aware. I don't really fear that people are going to attack me in the streets, but by the time we come of age, most of us have had a lifetime of being nervous about this. Even today, anti-gay microaggressions still persist. Every LGBT person has internalized that, and most of us want to not face a barrage of them. Fewer people will coo and say "Isn't that sweet" if we kiss in public. At best, many turn their heads in embarrassment. At worse, I've seen some sneering and some muttered comments about public decency. These are my experiences, and they are not universal--but when I see writing that doesn't take this into account, I am reminded that this is a woman writing out her own fantasies, going to her own happy places, and that the women who are reading this are not getting the kind of empathy-building books that you close and say, Wow. I got something out of that.

Again, I don't mind this. I just have a much stricter diet. Certain writers I can't read because they are recycling their own fetishized gay people as characters. And probably they have many gay friends of a certain kind. Some people just attract a certain kind of personality types to them, and they write within their comfort zone. So I am trying to write outside that comfort zone, even if it means writing some LGBT characters as negative people from time to time. Being a minority does not mean that they get a free pass. It just means that I have to be more careful about balancing out other representations of that same minority. In the book I am working on right now, there are six characters who are part of this community. Four are good, one is weak and anxious about protecting his future, and then one is deeply negative. I know that I will get a lot of clapback about that one who is negative, but to idealize a group of people as always good and noble simply because decades of prior representations have all been negative is a reductive and deeply fetishized vision of who LGBT people are. That doesn't mean that I like writing LGBT villains. I won't do it unless there are also a lot more LGBT heroes on the other side to provide more nuance.

 

[Serra K]

If I were fifteen, didn't like fantasy too much, look at the reading options. Let's say I wanted to read something that reassured me that, as an adult:

1. that my friendships would be deep and meaningful.
2. that I would recover from traumas (childhood and otherwise) in a psychologically realistic way
3. that there was a path in which, via hard work, I would achieve my dreams, even if it meant starting at the bottom.
4. that my self-worth was NOT predicated upon finding "the right" partner.

There's a shortage of this. Paper Planes by Steve Worland is good for boys and my son loved it when he was younger. This is an MG example however, and off the top of my head I couldn't think of an anything YA (which highlights the problem).

It's really good to read what all you guys have to say about this topic. Refreshing and insightful.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Great discussion here! Going back to the original question of how to breathe life into a two-dimensional character... My go-to technique when I have a character who feels flat is to write them into some 'backstage' scenes. These scenes won't show up in the story--they show the character struggling with something difficult, or going about their normal day, or talking with their dog, or whatever. Basically, I spend some quality time with them, and let them show me who they are. Sounds weird because why couldn't I just decide who they are? But throwing a character into a situation and seeing how they react is where you go from 'Bob is kind to animals' to 'Bob will risk eviction to take in stray cats despite the no pets policy of his apartment, especially if they are grey with green eyes, because he got a grey kitten for his sixth birthday and the kitten provided unconditional love at a time when his parents were going through a divorce and he felt unwanted'.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

I've written a novel, first person male POV. I started out writing him third person, finished the thing, then rewrote the whole thing again from scratch x 3.

Why did I do this? To get inside his head- and it was liberating. I 'knew' this person. There is no such person, except that perhaps he's an 'Everyman'. but I 'knew' him, I understood his problem- impossible to resolve by any practical yardstick of measurement- and I wanted to tell his story. He was not me, but he came from some part of me and I knew him like a friend.

I am noticing that agents - and the market is very female driven agent wise, are largely not going for male driven stories unless they are within the crime/thriller/police genres. It's all feisty females or downtrodden females discover their feistiness in commercial fiction, as if there is still something to prove and as if that too, is not sexist- and in danger of being boring. Fiction writing should not have an agenda, and there is such a thing as protesting too much.

"We are legion. We contain multitudes."

You just haven't quite worked out yet, who your male character is, what his problem is, such that you have a feel for him as a real person. Once you do, the flow will come.

 

[SarahC]

So many great insights in this conversation. It does seem that in MG there's loads of great male protagonists - thinking of Anthony Horowitz, the Percy Jackson books, Artemis Fowl etc etc. But as soon as you get to YA that appears to fall off a cliff edge.

I've just finished the first two in Joe Abercrombie's Age of Madness series - brilliant books, highly recommended, but even at that - the female characters were so finely drawn, complex, manipulative, intelligent, aware of their own vulnerability, surprising. And most of the male characters just wanted to kill each other. In fact, one of the main male characters is so idiotic and dim-witted that it's commented on throughout the books.

I felt like my character was unintentionally edging toward the empty-headed - easily led and lacking agency. Lots of interesting ideas to ponder.

 

[Hannah F]

Great male main characters in The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern. University age so not far off YA.

 

[izi 出久]

The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern.

If we're going here, then also The Night Circus.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Your male love interest could have a really redeeming feature, such as volunteering for a local charity in his spare time, or being the lead singer in a rock band. Musicians can be complete arseholes, yet still be sexy.

Hmmm, the voice of experience.

 

[Pamela Jo]

This helped me raise two very complex sons. I think it might give you more insights than YA comps. Testosterone and social structure and that existential Freudian dilemma of "If I can't be Mom, then what am I." Raising Boys | STEVE BIDDULPH

 

[Pamela Jo]

About teasing. It is a cultural thing. Even in an Irish-American family there was no difference between girls and boys in teasing.

and of course Shakespeare's example.

What I saw raising sons was very much the boys have to work harder at connecting with their own emotions. The consequences with that is a difficulty finding intimacy if you are male, having been hard-won, once found it is valued more. The basis of Band of Brothers. Steve Biddulph gives some neurological basis for that. Testosterone inhibits neural connections on the right half of the brain. That means in general men just have less network to reach them. I do agree that among males it feels safer to express emotions in teasing. One of the differences testosterone release creates is the need for muscular development which means boys have more trouble sitting still in classes. Thinking is connected with motion. You see this in movies and old novels that portray the general pacing before making a major decision. This is why it is easier for girls to sit in school for longer periods of time. Swiss schools do not start until the age of 7 mostly to help boys develop. And Waldschule (wood schools)from age two up are there to help neural development in all children. It's about learning about weather, how water, mud and fire reacts...just as children did when humans were rural based.

 

[Jason L.]

Hi Pamela! I was actually referring to friendship rather than family dynamics. Family dynamics are unique and individual, and teasing can be equal-opportunity. I was more referring to males (and females) interacting with coworkers, colleagues, fellow students, and strangers.

I just had this populate in my YouTube algorithm: 10 Best Tips for Writing Men - Maybe there are some nifty tips there?

 

[Rich.]

@Rich.--Wow. You sound like the best dad I can possibly imagine.

I almost choked on my coffee reading this! I'm far from the best dad, and I'm sure all parents feel like they're messing things up a lot of the time -- just when you think you've got something worked out, they grow up some more and it's back to square one! But I do appreciate the sentiment. Thank you

 

[Peyton Stafford]

My question is about men who feel heroic impulses within themselves, and how to convey this as a motivation in a story. Specically, in my current WIP, the protagonist is napping in his hotel room when he hears a woman scream. Instantly, he is awake. He opens the door to the hallway and counterattacks a half dozen men who seem bent upon raping a woman.

He does not wonder why he should care, or why he would feel motivated to deal with the situation. He does not close the door and go back to sleep.

In my little Pacific NW America world (Oregon, Washington, BC, west of the mountains) this would be normal. No one would ask, what is his motivation? He is a guy, and that's what men do. If he did not step in, people would consider him a pathetic coward. He did what people expected him to do. His heart led him. That was his motivation.

Yet in comments from Litopians, there is the question about his motivation? Why would he do this? In later scenes, Litopians ask why he cared about her, why he wondered if she were safe. Again, in my little world, people care about each other, at least the people I write about care.

I bought groceries for the week, early this afternoon. An accordion virtuoso sat on a folding chair on the edge of the parking lot with his wife and their children. The external air thermometer in my car said 94 Fahrenheit. I love Libertango by Astor Piazzola. He played it. I got cash back when I bought my food, and I dropped a twenty into his accordion case. His wife, his kids, and he thanked me. I tried to chat, but "Thank you. God bless," was their English vocabulary. My twenty was the only donation in his case. It was black leather on the outside. On the inside, blood red velvet.

 

[Brayati]

My question is about men who feel heroic impulses within themselves, and how to convey this as a motivation in a story. Specically, in my current WIP, the protagonist is napping in his hotel room when he hears a woman scream. Instantly, he is awake. He opens the door to the hallway and counterattacks a half dozen men who seem bent upon raping a woman.

He does not wonder why he should care, or why he would feel motivated to deal with the situation. He does not close the door and go back to sleep.

In my little Pacific NW America world (Oregon, Washington, BC, west of the mountains) this would be normal. No one would ask, what is his motivation? He is a guy, and that's what men do. If he did not step in, people would consider him a pathetic coward. He did what people expected him to do. His heart led him. That was his motivation.

Yet in comments from Litopians, there is the question about his motivation? Why would he do this? In later scenes, Litopians ask why he cared about her, why he wondered if she were safe. Again, in my little world, people care about each other, at least the people I write about care.

I bought groceries for the week, early this afternoon. An accordion virtuoso sat on a folding chair on the edge of the parking lot with his wife and their children. The external air thermometer in my car said 94 Fahrenheit. I love Libertango by Astor Piazzola. He played it. I got cash back when I bought my food, and I dropped a twenty into his accordion case. His wife, his kids, and he thanked me. I tried to chat, but "Thank you. God bless," was their English vocabulary. My twenty was the only donation in his case. It was black leather on the outside. On the inside, blood red velvet.

I think all people have a heroic impulse when things go down, but most people have also learned fear by the time they're adults, so unless it's their kids, or someone who sparks all the right fuel of their heroic impulses, most people won't and don't interfere/intervene. It takes, often, a trained person to do that, or a personal history.
Story, although a metaphor for some aspect of life, needs a reason for things to happen. Life isn't like that. Life isn't fair or just or obvious. People learn from the things that happen to them, and respond based on those life experiences.

Thank your for sharing your goodwill with that man and his family, and for creating the picture in my mind of his case. And the sense of desolation that your note was the only donation - a deft indication for the lack of empathy in the world. Those moments belong in a story to help otherwise ordinary people make choices that align with their optimism, rather than their learned pessimism.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

My question is about men who feel heroic impulses within themselves, and how to convey this as a motivation in a story. Specically, in my current WIP, the protagonist is napping in his hotel room when he hears a woman scream. Instantly, he is awake. He opens the door to the hallway and counterattacks a half dozen men who seem bent upon raping a woman.

He does not wonder why he should care, or why he would feel motivated to deal with the situation. He does not close the door and go back to sleep.

In my little Pacific NW America world (Oregon, Washington, BC, west of the mountains) this would be normal. No one would ask, what is his motivation? He is a guy, and that's what men do. If he did not step in, people would consider him a pathetic coward. He did what people expected him to do. His heart led him. That was his motivation.

Yet in comments from Litopians, there is the question about his motivation? Why would he do this? In later scenes, Litopians ask why he cared about her, why he wondered if she were safe. Again, in my little world, people care about each other, at least the people I write about care.

I bought groceries for the week, early this afternoon. An accordion virtuoso sat on a folding chair on the edge of the parking lot with his wife and their children. The external air thermometer in my car said 94 Fahrenheit. I love Libertango by Astor Piazzola. He played it. I got cash back when I bought my food, and I dropped a twenty into his accordion case. His wife, his kids, and he thanked me. I tried to chat, but "Thank you. God bless," was their English vocabulary. My twenty was the only donation in his case. It was black leather on the outside. On the inside, blood red velvet.

 

[izi 出久]

In my little Pacific NW America world (Oregon, Washington, BC, west of the mountains) this would be normal. No one would ask, what is his motivation? He is a guy, and that's what men do. If he did not step in, people would consider him a pathetic coward. He did what people expected him to do. His heart led him. That was his motivation

I argue this is not common. At all. And not a man vs woman thing. Once when at the skate rink, I was smoking and listening to music outside. Facing the parking lot. There were about 40 people outside just chilling and chatting. Anyway, out of the corner of my eye, I see movement, so I turn. An elderly man had fallen trying to step on the curb and hit his head on the concrete base of the light post. I pulled my headphones out and rushed over to him, and only when I told someone to call 911 (his head was bleeding and he was super confused) did anyone move.

Same thing happened with a woman on a skateboard. Was about 50 meters away from her, saw her fall, everyone just stepped around her until I ran over to help.

Same thing when I was on a walk and saw one man pushing his vehicle to the auto shop with one guy steering. Went to help, and BOOM ten guys came out of nowhere and helped. But it was not until I acted.

One time I was out running and I passed a girl sobbing. Stopped to ask her if she needed help. She said no, but she was comforted that I asked.

I have tons of stories like this.

I'm not heroic in anyway. I have a deep seated fear of being a bystander. In when I was in China, there was this 5 yo girl who was hit by a car. Didnt die by the first one. She lay in the road as people watched and waited for someone else to help, and four cars hit her before she died. This is not against Chinese people. Humans in herd (whatever we're called) always expect someone else to do it. After reading that story, I decided I would never be a bystander. But it's not heroism. It just comes from a deep disgust of what I realize is human nature.

Point is, I have a clear reason for why I do what I do. And, again, I argue that women and men both have reasons why they do this, or don't. Nothing to do with gender.

 

[izi 出久]

I have a lot of opportunity to see and act because I hang out in the shadows and seedy places. Those are my favorite places.

 

[izi 出久]

This article is pretty tight, I think.

Bystander Effect In Psychology

The bystander effect is a social psychological phenomenon where individuals are less likely to help a victim when others are present. The greater the number of bystanders, the less likely any one of them is to help.

www.simplypsychology.org

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Uh-oh, brace yourselves, I think I might be about to "use my words" If I had to generalise about guys, I'd say a reticence to share feelings is probably the defining trait (if there is one) – I think Jason is spot on to say that. I certainly see it in my male friends who are variously struggling with too many kids, not enough time, failing marriages, and unfulfilling careers – the usual stuff. And I see it in myself.


I'm a stay-at-home dad in Spain and my wife is the family breadwinner. Spain is a curious country in that feminism is alive and well here, but most of the guys haven't noticed. I've had many conversations when I'm asked what I do, and when I answer 'house husband', I often feel the need to follow it up with my best gimlet stare – "you gotta a problem with that, mo'fo'?"

I'm a big guy, with tattoos, scary looking if I want to be. I also cry at movies and encourage my boys to paint their nails and wear dresses if the fancy takes them, and I always point out to them the things I think are beautiful, using the softest words I know. But I'm always ready with that gimlet stare. And I struggle to open up to people with whom I'm not really, really comfortable – which is probably why I write, I suppose.


My dad was a soldier, saw action, and was a boxer. I can relate to this. I expect many of us can in some form or another. It certainly makes for stormy relationships, that I'll say.

I'm sharing all this because I thought Jason really hit on something with his last post:

Until my generation of conscientious objectors, every male ancestor fought in wars. Korea, WWII, WWI, Civil, 1812, and being on the wrong side of Henry VIII, and then the county sheriffs... Talk about trauma... PTSD as a family trait. I'm another big guy. No tattoos. People just stop talking when I walk into a room. I try to be friendly, but they can feel what is going on under my skin. Enemy, kill. Friend, hug. Woman, love. Children, adore.

I smile but nobody wants to mess with me. I hate that. I want a hug, but I scare everyone. I try to accept this about myself. I am a big, terrifying guy. But I want to be a big saving hero.

LBJ ???

Lyndon Baines Johnson, president of the USA, a liberal, who turned the conflict in Viet Nam into a disaster.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I read this as Lyndon B Johnson (Vietnam) but I think Matt was talking Iraq War. Or something around that time.

Of course. Different wars for different traumas. But the traumas all all the same.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I read this as Lyndon B Johnson (Vietnam) but I think Matt was talking Iraq War. Or something around that time.

Of course. Different wars for different traumas. But the traumas all all the same.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Okay, so maybe I am way late to this party, and I might not be saying anything new, but I will try to chip in. Guys are complex. More complex than they given credit for. They have complex relationships with other men, and it's not just about sports and girls. They also have dreams, and they are actually slightly less encouraged now than they were in prior decades, and less encouraged to articulate that. Most decent guys believe that there is room for more women in STEM, management, and at the top levels, and are happy to see it happen.

I teach. My male students, on average, score over ten points less on average at the end of class than my female students. What does that mean? Does it mean that there is something I am doing wrong that is not reaching them? Probably. When I discussed the actual gender-based inequalities, did it occasion alarm? No. One experienced teacher (whom I have, full disclosure, never respected) told me that "Boys just aren't good students." Imagine how alarming that be if it were women who were scoring lower! People would be saying, "Something we are doing is wrong. It's not connecting with the way these young women are learning." Instead, educators themselves are relatively indifferent to the fact that well-meaning young men are falling through the cracks. Believe me, I am delighted that women are excelling. But that doesn't mean that I should chalk up a win. It's not. It's alarming.

Boys can surprise you. They can have rich inner lives. One of the things that I really liked about the series "Love, Victor" was that, even though it was about a gay relationship, the straight males in the story were complex and conflicted. They were trying to hide things for fear of being shamed. They were sometimes confronted with the ugliness of their actions and capable of doing better. They were, at times, awful and embarrassing, but they were fairly fleshed out.

A few things as a guy: it is entirely possible to have a very close friend you've decked in the face. Most of us shave our faces in the shower. Many of us are still encouraged to do only gender-appropriate things, regardless of our interests. That means that even though we might think baking of cool, or want to play the flute, or even learn how to dance, it's strongly discouraged in a way that it would never be discouraged for women. That means that there are fewer avenues of "acceptable" behavior. Put simply, your character's sole interest in sport is a reflection of the fact that his parents were afraid that him having less aggressively-masculine interests would "encourage" homosexuality. Guys tend to confess things during car trips. Women tend to do so making eye contact, but most of my guy friends tend to do it while driving, so that we can both be turned straight ahead. Guys DO cry but most of us have to feel REALLY safe about it. An eighteen year old male who has a gay friend has to often make difficult choices if they want to protect those people from bullies, but especially in this day and age, a lot of them will do it. Young men want to be "good" at things in the same ways that girls are, but they are viewed as less dependable.

All of the complexities of women's friendships can absolutely be reflected in males, although there are some things that might change. In fact, sometimes the struggle to get them to be comfortable enough to talk about their feelings or "use their words" can be the most touching part.

So just a thought.

You and I are on the same wavelength, brother. To me, the gender issue comes down to a humanity issue: can we all humans discuss our issues.

Love your thoughts.

 

[izi 出久]

He does not wonder why he should care, or why he would feel motivated to deal with the situation. He does not close the door and go back to sleep.

He's on the run. He doesn't want people to know who he is or where he is. The Bystander Phenomenon would predict he would stay hidden in his room and hope someone else would go out and save her. Even if he does decide to help, he wouldn't do so immediately. He'd wrestle with if there was actually a problem or not. It's a fantasy world, and seemingly a bit violent. I'm sure it's not the first time he's heard someone scream. And there's going to be the question of if he can actually help or not. He's not a swordsman; he's a musician. He only has a dirk. He would be thinking about.

Unless something happened in his past that causes him to act immediately. But then we'd need to know that. Because the above is human nature.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I can't afford a decent lathe, so I use a drill press for boring male characters. Most of mine are quite wooden, so it works.

It's a bit more awkward with painted male characters coz I usually have to strip them first.

The Lathe of Heaven?

 

[Peyton Stafford]

He's on the run. He doesn't want people to know who he is or where he is. The Bystander Phenomenon would predict he would stay hidden in his room and hope someone else would go out and save her. Even if he does decide to help, he wouldn't do so immediately. He'd wrestle with if there was actually a problem or not. It's a fantasy world, and seemingly a bit violent. I'm sure it's not the first time he's heard someone scream. And there's going to be the question of if he can actually help or not. He's not a swordsman; he's a musician. He only has a dirk. He would be thinking about.

Unless something happened in his past that causes him to act immediately. But then we'd need to know that. Because the above is human nature.

He's on the run. That does not mean he would chicken out. He is not a bystander. He is a hero. This is not a fantasy world. It is the world he lives in, the world we live in. Fantasy for us; reality for him.

A woman screams for help. The question is not about his swordsman skills. It is about his willingness to give his life to help save someone else's honor.

 

[izi 出久]

He's on the run. That does not mean he would chicken out. He is not a bystander. He is a hero. This is not a fantasy world. It is the world he lives in, the world we live in. Fantasy for us; reality for him.

A woman screams for help. The question is not about his swordsman skills. It is about his willingness to give his life to help save someone else's honor.

But check out the article I posted. It's not normal.

 

[izi 出久]

This article is pretty tight, I think.

Bystander Effect In Psychology

The bystander effect is a social psychological phenomenon where individuals are less likely to help a victim when others are present. The greater the number of bystanders, the less likely any one of them is to help.

www.simplypsychology.org

@Peyton Stafford this one here.

 

[RK Wallis]

My question is about men who feel heroic impulses within themselves, and how to convey this as a motivation in a story. Specically, in my current WIP, the protagonist is napping in his hotel room when he hears a woman scream. Instantly, he is awake. He opens the door to the hallway and counterattacks a half dozen men who seem bent upon raping a woman.

He does not wonder why he should care, or why he would feel motivated to deal with the situation. He does not close the door and go back to sleep.

In my little Pacific NW America world (Oregon, Washington, BC, west of the mountains) this would be normal. No one would ask, what is his motivation? He is a guy, and that's what men do. If he did not step in, people would consider him a pathetic coward. He did what people expected him to do. His heart led him. That was his motivation.

Yet in comments from Litopians, there is the question about his motivation? Why would he do this? In later scenes, Litopians ask why he cared about her, why he wondered if she were safe. Again, in my little world, people care about each other, at least the people I write about care.

I bought groceries for the week, early this afternoon. An accordion virtuoso sat on a folding chair on the edge of the parking lot with his wife and their children. The external air thermometer in my car said 94 Fahrenheit. I love Libertango by Astor Piazzola. He played it. I got cash back when I bought my food, and I dropped a twenty into his accordion case. His wife, his kids, and he thanked me. I tried to chat, but "Thank you. God bless," was their English vocabulary. My twenty was the only donation in his case. It was black leather on the outside. On the inside, blood red velvet.

I'd say by showing your protag's the reaction (as you have done), you show the reader the type of character he is.

If a woman cries 'help!' and someone has to think 'why should I help a stranger,' or ignores the cry, that tells me the person is self-centered. If someone just acts, that tells me they are empathic. I'll like an empathic person and follow them. The self-centred, I won't like, but if they have redeeming or interesting traits, I'll follow them too (they'd be challenging to write but fun for some). There's a place in fiction for unlikeable characters - Scrooge. The question is, 'what type of character do you want to write?'

Once you have your answer, ignore comments to the contrary. They have no relevance to your story. Stick with your gut

 

[Brayati]

He is a hero.

It is about his willingness to give his life to help save someone else's honor.

My concern with the above is whether the character is someone who doesn't have a reason to grow and change. Some people call these characters Mary Sue or Gary Stu characters - too good to be true.
What is the lesson/change he learns/earns through undertaking this journey?
Is his fear of not reaching the goal of the things he wants to get/do/become enough to give him second thoughts about coming out of hiding to be the protector?