Help! Boring male characters

[SarahC]

Hi all,

I just realised all of my male characters are...well...idiots, frankly. And worse, boring and two-dimensional.

The main character I am trying to fix is an 18 y/o boy. I just can't fix on his personality. He's meant to be the love interest, but to be honest I can't see why my protagonist would bother with him.

I've tried rewriting him in several different ways to no avail.

I understand it's probably because most of the women I know are complicated, neurotic, contradictory creatures and most of the men I know are happy enough as long as there's some sport on the TV

I need inspiration. Can anyone recommend YA/Millenial fiction/fantasy with young but complex/interesting male characters? Or offer any words of wisdom on when a character just isn't working?

 

[Serra K]

Here's a topic I care deeply about. Our male counterparts have had a rough go of it in entertainment and literature lately, often being depicted as goofy/stupid, shallow... all kinds of unflattering representations.

The only advice I can give is to have a think about why it is that your subconscious wants to write and rewrite your male characters in a bad light. Is there something personal preventing you from seeing your male characters as strong, respectable, likeable people? Obviously these are just questions to answer only to yourself, but I think it's worthwhile.

I have problems connecting to or respecting some of my own characters and I've found that it helps to 'take them for a walk'. Take them seriously, have them tell you where they're coming from, and find genuine reasons to 'get them' and respect them.

I think two-dimensional characters are just characters you haven't spent enough time getting to know. Make time for them, so they can show you who they are.

Your characters will only be as real to readers as they are to you, so don't stress if you have to take time away from the desk to work out who it is you're dealing with.

 

[izi 出久]

I need inspiration. Can anyone recommend YA/Millenial fiction/fantasy with young but complex/interesting male characters? Or offer any words of wisdom on when a character just isn't working?

Please read The Queen's Thief series by Megan Whalen Turner. Eugenides is one of my favorite characters of all time. He's brilliant, mysterious, and always one step ahead of everyone, including the reader. Doesn't mean he has no issues.... but the story is sooo good. I can never not recommend these books. The series is mythic fantasy.

 

[izi 出久]

Here's a topic I care deeply about. Our male counterparts have had a rough go of it in entertainment and literature lately, often being depicted as goofy/stupid, shallow... all kinds of unflattering representations.

The only advice I can give is to have a think about why it is that your subconscious wants to write and rewrite your male characters in a bad light. Is there something personal preventing you from seeing your male characters as strong, respectable, likeable people? Obviously these are just questions to answer only to yourself, but I think it's worthwhile.

I've had the privilege to know some pretty great guys in my life (also, some pretty terrible ones, but that goes for women, too), and also I thought of myself as a boy until I was about twelve. Periods have a way of dashing all those childish dreams of just binding one's chest.

My advice: choose anyone from literature or real life that you found endearing for some reason (girl or guy) and start with that as your skeleton. Build up from there.

Random side question: Does this character get a POV? that might influence how much research you'd need to do.

I just came to the realization that, other than Mika, Pedra, and Kilatra, all the other salient characters in my story are men. And Pedra barely counts (don't tell her I said this) because she's androgynous. My favorite character is a guy. It's a pity since he's going to die at the end of this book. *tear*

What do men struggle with? Basically, the same things as women minus the period. Although in different ways, society also places a heavy burden on them for how they should act with each other, toward women, toward the arts, toward warfare, toward conflict in general. Like women, they can allow themselves to cave under this burden, they can struggle with it daily, or they can cast it aside and be a bit of an eccentric entity.

I was close to someone for awhile who was deeply intrigued by philosophy. He loved to engage in long discussions over beer. Both my brothers love strategy; one of them spent hours each weekend playing chess with my father. The kid (not a kid anymore) I babysat for two years as a preteen has gone on to place first in high school wrestling nationally and third in chess nationally. Don't mind me over here, just puttering along on my little stories.

I guess I'm just tossing some thoughts around. I agree with @Serra K . Spending some time with your male characters might make you more comfortable with them as deeper personalities. Perhaps also write scenes completely unrelated to the story. Maybe he's waiting in line at a coffee shop and sees the barista is having a bad day. What does he do? Maybe he's buying food at the store and the guy in front of him drops a fifty. What does he do? Learn a bit about him. Maybe your MC doesn't know all these things, but you do.

 

[Dorm Ant]

Your male love interest could have a really redeeming feature, such as volunteering for a local charity in his spare time, or being the lead singer in a rock band. Musicians can be complete arseholes, yet still be sexy.

 

[Rich.]

The main character I am trying to fix is an 18 y/o boy. I just can't fix on his personality. He's meant to be the love interest, but to be honest I can't see why my protagonist would bother with him.

Well, I might be barking up the wrong tree, but you could try...

Whatever makes your protagonist laugh, make the boy able to cause that laughter. If he's 18, give him a specific interest that he's knowledgeable about (doesn't matter how low- or highbrow), and make him slightly awkward about sharing that knowledge or passion with people who aren't in it; make him interested in the world in general but through a particular lens – politics, art, professional hierarchy, how people feel about lighting their own farts, whatever, but make sure the lens is there; and then decide how self-aware he is of these traits, how introspective, and how much of that he shares and with whom (as applicable to your story).

That is, to be sure, a pretty rough an ready psychological model upon which to build a character, but it might give you somewhere to jump off from (particularly the bit about making your protagonist laugh).

As for books, Kell is pretty cool in Schwab's Shades of Magic series, as is (for different reasons) Brashen in Hobb's Liveship Traders trilogy (and Kennit from that trilogy is awesome in a grimacingly anti-hero kind of way, but he's probably too old to be a model for an 18 year old).

 

[izi 出久]

Whatever makes your protagonist laugh, make the boy able to cause that laughter. If he's 18, give him a specific interest that he's knowledgeable about (doesn't matter how low- or highbrow), and make him slightly awkward about sharing that knowledge or passion with people who aren't in it; make him interested in the world in general but through a particular lens – politics, art, professional hierarchy, how people feel about lighting their own farts, whatever, but make sure the lens is there; and then decide how self-aware he is of these traits, how introspective, and how much of that he shares and with whom (as applicable to your story).

Yessss couldn't put my finger on it but this is what I love. The annoying but also endearing trait of passion about a subject that just must be shared.

 

[SarahC]

why it is that your subconscious wants to write and rewrite your male characters in a bad light.

Yeah...there's definitely something in that.

Please read The Queen's Thief series by Megan Whalen Turner

I certainly will, looks right up my street.

My advice: choose anyone from literature or real life that you found endearing for some reason (girl or guy) and start with that as your skeleton. Build up from there.

This is great advice.

Your male love interest could have a really redeeming feature,

I did try sticking in a few "save the cat" moments for him, but it felt a bit superficial, probably because his character isn't really formed properly. He's not an asshole, he just doesn't seem to have any agency. He's kind of the foil to more fiery/eccentric characters. The "straight man", as it were. Which is fine, but I would still like him to have depth and complexity.

Thank you all for your advice. I shall read, and ponder and write a few random scenes.

 

[MattScho]

The male characters from lots of war novels, movies are 18 year olds. Wars are fought by 18 year olds.
Quick story, in 2003, I was in the passenger seat of a Humvee, driven by an 18 year old kid, with a boot full of 18 and 19 year olds. The driver had never driven a car before landing in Kuwait. These kids were supposed to be among the first US personnel to the exterior 10 meter high sand berm separating Kuwait and Iraq, as part of that US invasion. His job was to drive us, while under artillery fire, on a cleared path through a series of minefields, swinging back and forth between the holes already punched in the two sand berms leading to that final one. Once there, the kids in the back would roll out, and get up that berm as quickly as they could, and one was assigned to look over the top and see what in the pre-drone world could be seen about the resistance. His job came with a life-expectancy of six seconds (meaning he'd be okay if he could survive those first six seconds). So, when it was time to leave, the driver, who was crying, grabbed some eye-black, using his thumbs, made a couple crosses on his cheeks, shouted, "Let's fucking do this" jumped in and drove like a bat out of hell. We might have spent half a second on the cleared path, but probably not. We drove at about 40 (racing in without a road) through minefields. In the end, he did a power slide into the berm, lifting the vehicle up on two wheels, the kids in the back used that to jump out and race up the berm. the kid with the "hope you can survive the full six seconds" job, scampered to the top, yelling "I am gonna die" and lifted his head over the top, fully expecting to have it shot off.
So, this is 18 year old males, in a nutshell. They can be idiots. They can be noble. They can be confused. they can be stubborn. They can be tragic and funny and horrible and fragile and strong. They can be, and often are, all of these things at the same time.

 

[Hannah F]

Caroline O'Donoghue's All our hidden Gifts YA Fantasy. Roe O'Callaghan is a side kick with complex gender issues of his own.

Bridget Collins The Binding It's not YA but the two male protagonists would work just as well as 18 year olds.

A 17yo, I taught was quite a girl chatter-uperer (made up word) until one girl really took his fancy. He sat near her, joked and teased with her (ie teasing both ways), eventually asked her out to a burger type restaurant one notch more posh than McDonalds. He borrowed money from his mum to buy new clothes, got his hair cut (bet he chose new cologne but I didn't get to hear of that part). On the day, she texted and broke it off. The next time they came to class, he didn't know what to do with himself, whether to talk to her or stay away. To me, that was all evident in his sliding glances, the way he would edge closer then away. So, I suggested to her to break the ice, share a joke with him or something. She did and the relief on his face and in his shoulders was palpable.
In my experience, deep inside, 18 year old boys are just like girls with dicks.

 

[Brayati]

'take them for a walk'.

This is good, and sit them down with coffee while you interview them. See what they look at, how they answer (not just what), ask deep, serious questions -- and remember that all foetuses begin as female until a specific hormone is introduced - they are the same, but with dangly bits created by the hormonal difference.

 

[SarahC]

So, this is 18 year old males, in a nutshell. They can be idiots. They can be noble. They can be confused. they can be stubborn. They can be tragic and funny and horrible and fragile and strong. They can be, and often are, all of these things at the same time.

Yes, I can feel the truth of this.

I think I'm letting some negative experiences (understatement alert) from my past colour my writing too much. I'm trying to write a relatively sympathetic and likeable character, but some part of me obviously doesn't feel particularly inclined to make him so.

Bridget Collins The Binding It's not YA but the two male protagonists would work just as well as 18 year olds.

I loved this book so much! So good.

Maybe I'll just stick a post-it on my laptop saying "remember - not all men are assholes" and see if that helps

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Please read The Queen's Thief series by Megan Whalen Turner. Eugenides is one of my favorite characters of all time. He's brilliant, mysterious, and always one step ahead of everyone, including the reader. Doesn't mean he has no issues.... but the story is sooo good. I can never not recommend these books. The series is mythic fantasy.

Which is the first book in the series?

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I've had the privilege to know some pretty great guys in my life (also, some pretty terrible ones, but that goes for women, too), and also I thought of myself as a boy until I was about twelve. Periods have a way of dashing all those childish dreams of just binding one's chest.

My advice: choose anyone from literature or real life that you found endearing for some reason (girl or guy) and start with that as your skeleton. Build up from there.

Random side question: Does this character get a POV? that might influence how much research you'd need to do.

I just came to the realization that, other than Mika, Pedra, and Kilatra, all the other salient characters in my story are men. And Pedra barely counts (don't tell her I said this) because she's androgynous. My favorite character is a guy. It's a pity since he's going to die at the end of this book. *tear*

What do men struggle with? Basically, the same things as women minus the period. Although in different ways, society also places a heavy burden on them for how they should act with each other, toward women, toward the arts, toward warfare, toward conflict in general. Like women, they can allow themselves to cave under this burden, they can struggle with it daily, or they can cast it aside and be a bit of an eccentric entity.

I was close to someone for awhile who was deeply intrigued by philosophy. He loved to engage in long discussions over beer. Both my brothers love strategy; one of them spent hours each weekend playing chess with my father. The kid (not a kid anymore) I babysat for two years as a preteen has gone on to place first in high school wrestling nationally and third in chess nationally. Don't mind me over here, just puttering along on my little stories.

I guess I'm just tossing some thoughts around. I agree with @Serra K . Spending some time with your male characters might make you more comfortable with them as deeper personalities. Perhaps also write scenes completely unrelated to the story. Maybe he's waiting in line at a coffee shop and sees the barista is having a bad day. What does he do? Maybe he's buying food at the store and the guy in front of him drops a fifty. What does he do? Learn a bit about him. Maybe your MC doesn't know all these things, but you do.

Speaking as a guy, I can vouch that being male is anything but easy. We are expected to provide for our families and anyone else in need, i.e., homeless people we meet on the street, charities, or anyone who needs anything whatsoever. They are our responsibility, and we swear that we will die rather than not rescue them. We are expected to be wise and kind, no matter how idiotic and emotional our families, friends, and colleagues get. We are expected to be tireless. We must rise before dawn, work hard until midnight, and do it again the next day. We never get a day off.

Guys who spend their time watching sports on TV while drinking beer are losers. They are blowing off their responsibilities, and with those responsibilities, they are rejecting their heritage and their potential. Real guys want to help them become who they were born to be, but there is a lot of resistance. Beer or take out the garbage? Sports or take the kids to the beach? These are win/lose questions, and a lot of males flunk the test. Nevertheless, we real guys keep trying. That's a real guy characteristic. No matter what happens, we keep trying. We never give up on anyone.

But a lot of us will take out the garbage. We will take the kids to the beach. We will vacuum the floor and scrub the toilet. We will hold the women in our lives in the most tender, caring arms. We will never abandon anyone in need.

Please keep this in mind. We guys are all born with the instinct to become heroes. That's what we want for ourselves. That is our mission in life. Even if we have to die trying, we will do what is right, we will rescue anyone in danger, and we will bring peace and safety to everyone.

This is a big issue in my own writing. A Trembling Wind is about a guy, a wandering troubadour, who finds himself becoming a hero. Pixie is about a middle-aged businessman who finds himself by accepting the unconditional love of a woman who seems to be from another world, but who guides him through a series of horrific events. The Manuscript is about a writer who loses his WIP, goes mad, and finds his way to sanity by helping a woman who seems to appear from nowhere.

An anecdote from my own life:

When I was sixteen and just learning to drive, my father, my brother, and my little sister drove from our home in Eastern Oregon to Walla Walla, Washington, which is famous for its agriculture production--grapes for wine, peaches, cherries--anything that grows. Dad was a college professor. We were not migrant laborers. He wanted us to understand what it meant to harvest food and bring it home, where we would work with Mom (who was a psychotherapist by day) to freeze or can the harvest. He and Mom had grown up on farms, so harvesting and canning were pleasures, not burdens. They wanted to share their joy with us kids.

Dad had me drive. On the way home, he and my siblings needed to empty their bladders. Dad told me to pull to the side of the road. It was a narrow gravel road with a ditch on both sides. I obeyed. When the time to leave came, our rear wheels spun. We were stuck in the ditch.

I hopped out of the van and waved at the next passing vehicle, a pickup truck driven by Mexican migrants. We could not communicate with words. No English for them. No Spanish for us. But they understood the situation. Their truck had a winch attached to the front. They tucked the hook under our front bumper and pulled our van onto the road.

Dad dug into his wallet and offered a twenty-dollar bill. The Mexican guy driving the truck held up his hands. He laughed and waved them to the side. Clearly, he would not take the money.

"Amigos," he said, as he jumped back into the truck and drove away.

This always stuck with me. Guys who drive around with winches on their pickup trucks so they can rescue people. That's what a guy is. Not the one guzzling beer and spacing out on sports TV.

I hope this all makes sense to you ladies. Guys live to fall in love with ladies like you, or with guys. You may see yourselves as undesirable or ugly or hopeless, but the real guys in the real world see you as desirable, beautiful, and as harbingers of hope not only for yourselves but for them.

As Stan Lee said, "Nuff said."

 

[Peyton Stafford]

The male characters from lots of war novels, movies are 18 year olds. Wars are fought by 18 year olds.
Quick story, in 2003, I was in the passenger seat of a Humvee, driven by an 18 year old kid, with a boot full of 18 and 19 year olds. The driver had never driven a car before landing in Kuwait. These kids were supposed to be among the first US personnel to the exterior 10 meter high sand berm separating Kuwait and Iraq, as part of that US invasion. His job was to drive us, while under artillery fire, on a cleared path through a series of minefields, swinging back and forth between the holes already punched in the two sand berms leading to that final one. Once there, the kids in the back would roll out, and get up that berm as quickly as they could, and one was assigned to look over the top and see what in the pre-drone world could be seen about the resistance. His job came with a life-expectancy of six seconds (meaning he'd be okay if he could survive those first six seconds). So, when it was time to leave, the driver, who was crying, grabbed some eye-black, using his thumbs, made a couple crosses on his cheeks, shouted, "Let's fucking do this" jumped in and drove like a bat out of hell. We might have spent half a second on the cleared path, but probably not. We drove at about 40 (racing in without a road) through minefields. In the end, he did a power slide into the berm, lifting the vehicle up on two wheels, the kids in the back used that to jump out and race up the berm. the kid with the "hope you can survive the full six seconds" job, scampered to the top, yelling "I am gonna die" and lifted his head over the top, fully expecting to have it shot off.
So, this is 18 year old males, in a nutshell. They can be idiots. They can be noble. They can be confused. they can be stubborn. They can be tragic and funny and horrible and fragile and strong. They can be, and often are, all of these things at the same time.

These were guys at their best. Often idiotic but noble. I am glad you survived LBJ and I hope they did too.

 

[izi 出久]

Which is the first book in the series?

The Thief

 

[Vagabond Heart]

Sarah,

Well done for recognising what wasn’t working with your WIP and wanting to do something about it.

After reading Matt’s account, I’m staggering. But I have sons (40 and 31), and I’ve watched them and all their friends become men after various moments of total dickishness as teens, so I know how true that heroic potential is.

Two things that might help come to mind.

1. Imagine your character as a girl. Think of what a complex person she’d be, what her motivations might be, and how you’d make her interesting. Then change her back to being male, and use what you’ve learnt to flesh your character out.

And/or

2. Watch SEX EDUCATION. At least all of season 1, but all of it if you can. It is chock full of teenage male characters that are anything but one-dimensional, and even the ones you start off thinking are just stereotypes completely surprise you.

Hope this helps, and sorry you’ve only met the dicks.

 

[MattScho]

I think I'm letting some negative experiences (understatement alert) from my past colour my writing too much. I'm trying to write a relatively sympathetic and likeable character, but some part of me obviously doesn't feel particularly inclined to make him so.
... Maybe I'll just stick a post-it on my laptop saying "remember - not all men are assholes" and see if that helps

Question: Why make him likeable?
Literature is full of memorable male characters who are total asshats. You need it to be believeable that she likes him? Make him handsome. I believe there just might be some real world precedence for staying around an attractive man (or woman) despite everything else about them. There's probably a formula to determine how attractive someone has to be to overcome their personality. At the top of the attractive scale, he can be a serial killer who lives with the dead body of his mom. ("OMG,'" she thought, "how long has his dead mom been in the chair in the living room? On the other hand, look at his eyes, and that ass..."
The asshats are a ton of fun to write. You know them, so you know they're real. They also serve the purpose of giving your protag a relateable flaw.

 

[SarahC]

You need it to be believeable that she likes him? Make him handsome

Actually, this is an extremely valid point

 

[Rich.]

/irrelevance on

I keep thinking about this thread's title.​

​

– So, how does this work, then?​

– Look, there, in the box marked male characters. Grab one, any one, and chuck him over here.​

– All right. Here, catch.​

– Great, now, I slot him into the grips at each end of the lathe and then... Let me see, three eighths should do him. We'll bore him out to three eighths of an inch. That'll leave a good bit of two-dimensional idiot to vex the writer, but there'll be just enough hollow in the tube to pour in some interest and complexity.​

– Always three eighths?​

– Depends. For an eighteen year old, yeah probably. I went up to an inch once. Took out all the idiot. Didn't ring true. Boring male characters is a delicate art, my friend, and no mistake.​

/irrelevance off

 

[Serra K]

@Rich. had to read twice to get this

 

[Rich.]

Yeah, it's not a Pulitzer winner, is it? If anyone asks, I'll say my kids wrote it, nothing to do with me at all.

 

[Bloo]

I can't afford a decent lathe, so I use a drill press for boring male characters. Most of mine are quite wooden, so it works.

It's a bit more awkward with painted male characters coz I usually have to strip them first.

 

[Jason L.]

Okay, so maybe I am way late to this party, and I might not be saying anything new, but I will try to chip in. Guys are complex. More complex than they given credit for. They have complex relationships with other men, and it's not just about sports and girls. They also have dreams, and they are actually slightly less encouraged now than they were in prior decades, and less encouraged to articulate that. Most decent guys believe that there is room for more women in STEM, management, and at the top levels, and are happy to see it happen.

I teach. My male students, on average, score over ten points less on average at the end of class than my female students. What does that mean? Does it mean that there is something I am doing wrong that is not reaching them? Probably. When I discussed the actual gender-based inequalities, did it occasion alarm? No. One experienced teacher (whom I have, full disclosure, never respected) told me that "Boys just aren't good students." Imagine how alarming that be if it were women who were scoring lower! People would be saying, "Something we are doing is wrong. It's not connecting with the way these young women are learning." Instead, educators themselves are relatively indifferent to the fact that well-meaning young men are falling through the cracks. Believe me, I am delighted that women are excelling. But that doesn't mean that I should chalk up a win. It's not. It's alarming.

Boys can surprise you. They can have rich inner lives. One of the things that I really liked about the series "Love, Victor" was that, even though it was about a gay relationship, the straight males in the story were complex and conflicted. They were trying to hide things for fear of being shamed. They were sometimes confronted with the ugliness of their actions and capable of doing better. They were, at times, awful and embarrassing, but they were fairly fleshed out.

A few things as a guy: it is entirely possible to have a very close friend you've decked in the face. Most of us shave our faces in the shower. Many of us are still encouraged to do only gender-appropriate things, regardless of our interests. That means that even though we might think baking of cool, or want to play the flute, or even learn how to dance, it's strongly discouraged in a way that it would never be discouraged for women. That means that there are fewer avenues of "acceptable" behavior. Put simply, your character's sole interest in sport is a reflection of the fact that his parents were afraid that him having less aggressively-masculine interests would "encourage" homosexuality. Guys tend to confess things during car trips. Women tend to do so making eye contact, but most of my guy friends tend to do it while driving, so that we can both be turned straight ahead. Guys DO cry but most of us have to feel REALLY safe about it. An eighteen year old male who has a gay friend has to often make difficult choices if they want to protect those people from bullies, but especially in this day and age, a lot of them will do it. Young men want to be "good" at things in the same ways that girls are, but they are viewed as less dependable.

All of the complexities of women's friendships can absolutely be reflected in males, although there are some things that might change. In fact, sometimes the struggle to get them to be comfortable enough to talk about their feelings or "use their words" can be the most touching part.

So just a thought.

 

[Hannah F]

Reminds me of a boy (10 to 11) in my trampoline class. He lived in a really rough estate. His big brother was a boxer, his dad a lorry driver. They and his pals pressurised him to do boxing and not a "sissy" sport. The thing was, he was extremely good at trampolining. Luckily his primary school supported him and funded his lessons. At 12 years old and in senior school, he really wanted to keep trampolining but peer pressure won - he was losing out on being one of the lads - and he gave up and joined the boxing class. I often wonder how he is. I wonder if he'll ever excel at boxing like he did at trampolining.

 

[Rich.]

sometimes the struggle to get them to be comfortable enough to talk about their feelings or "use their words" can be the most touching part

Uh-oh, brace yourselves, I think I might be about to "use my words" If I had to generalise about guys, I'd say a reticence to share feelings is probably the defining trait (if there is one) – I think Jason is spot on to say that. I certainly see it in my male friends who are variously struggling with too many kids, not enough time, failing marriages, and unfulfilling careers – the usual stuff. And I see it in myself.

Many of us are still encouraged to do only gender-appropriate things, regardless of our interests.

I'm a stay-at-home dad in Spain and my wife is the family breadwinner. Spain is a curious country in that feminism is alive and well here, but most of the guys haven't noticed. I've had many conversations when I'm asked what I do, and when I answer 'house husband', I often feel the need to follow it up with my best gimlet stare – "you gotta a problem with that, mo'fo'?"

I'm a big guy, with tattoos, scary looking if I want to be. I also cry at movies and encourage my boys to paint their nails and wear dresses if the fancy takes them, and I always point out to them the things I think are beautiful, using the softest words I know. But I'm always ready with that gimlet stare. And I struggle to open up to people with whom I'm not really, really comfortable – which is probably why I write, I suppose.

His big brother was a boxer, his dad a lorry driver.

My dad was a soldier, saw action, and was a boxer. I can relate to this. I expect many of us can in some form or another. It certainly makes for stormy relationships, that I'll say.

I'm sharing all this because I thought Jason really hit on something with his last post:

All of the complexities of women's friendships can absolutely be reflected in males, although there are some things that might change.

 

[Bloo]

These were guys at their best. Often idiotic but noble. I am glad you survived LBJ and I hope they did too.

LBJ ???

 

[izi 出久]

LBJ ???

I read this as Lyndon B Johnson (Vietnam) but I think Matt was talking Iraq War. Or something around that time.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I read this as Lyndon B Johnson (Vietnam) but I think Matt was talking Iraq War. Or something around that time.

You're right. Different decade. Same mindset.

 

[Brayati]

afraid that him having less aggressively-masculine interests would "encourage" homosexuality

Patrick Swayze, anyone? A man whose mother bullied and beat him, taught him ballet and toughness, and who did his life as a male in a world of both men and women, respected by both, honoured by both, and never ashamed to cry or chest-thump.

This is the most amazing discussion, and @Jason L. - your insights are amazing. I have two foster boys (now adults), and I'm sharing your words with them. They didn't do well in school, but at home it was different. They used the things they learned in a real-world setting rather than theoretical (measuring timber to make a wardrobe/bed/drawers; measuring a room for paint; determining actual day-length to ensure the small solar panels on the fence had enough charge to maintain an electric fence overnight, etc.) - maybe that's a different angle to help the boys come back up the ladder. Real, practical, social effects of the things that need to be learned through an education. I'd like to see boys do better, dream harder, achieve a high-stakes purpose in life.