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I've been reluctant to join this discussion because 1) I'm not a man 2) Even if I were, I don't believe that one man can speak for all men, just as one woman can't speak for all women 3) I would want to see robust, statistically significant, reliable data, as anecdotal evidence can only go so far.

It's interesting to read each other's thoughts on this topic. I agree with @AgentPete that a healthy dose of sodium is required when reviewing what's being put out there.

As for 'huffing and puffing' and lamentation @RedSquiggle, as you say, agreement isn't necessary, but getting personal and minimising the points of view of others isn't either. 'Would it hurt us to open up a line of dialogue to perspectives that are different...' This whole thread is a dialogue. People should be able to weigh up the info shared and express their thoughts on it without the suggestion of closed-mindedness. This just shuts the conversation down.

'perspectives that are different than what's been trickled down to us by those trying to "get you published" these last several years' - this assumes that Litopians are incapable of critical thinking, mindlessly bobbing their heads along en masse to whatever they're told. Sweeping statements that suggest the commenters are not open to discussing different perspectives are not helpful. Just because an opinion is expressed doesn't mean that they're not open to hearing and discussing the opinions of others in a respectful manner.
 
I was unaware when I posted that this video created such a firestorm here. I'll just say as a mother of a boy and girls, and having a husband of thirteen years, it is obvious to me that male and female brains are not the same. The discussion does require some nuance, and nuance wasn't a priority for these podcasters in this episode, and some of the theorizing (autism brain?) is rickety at best. But let us not return the broad-brush by claiming these men are saying adventure is "masculine."

It's not that any story aspects are masculine or feminine in themselves, it's that men and women *tend to* prefer different ratios of these things. I thought differences were supposed to be celebrated--or are we not in 2025?

Tradpub leans into a mix (adventure, description, problem-solving, romance, etc.) that appeals more to women. I really find this conclusion hard to argue with. While Mr. Umstadtt certainly has his biases, so does everyone here huffing and puffing about (gasp! Horror!) Jordan Peterson, who was barely mentioned in the video. Oh, lament! Lament that men like myth and meaning and purpose because you don't agree with the politics of the Daily Wire.

Y'all, we don't all have to agree. But would it hurt us as writers to open up a line of dialog to perspectives that are different than what's been trickled down to us by those trying to "get you published" these last several years? Would it hurt to consider that may be some of the things in our writing we've been told to suppress are just the things that could appeal to an underserved fiction audience?
I do believe on here we accept honestly given comments as part of a proper discussion. we have to examine all sides of an issue in order to write about it, at least well.
Your post sounded as if you were a bit nervous about the reaction, but it's going to be positive
People will disagree, that is simply life.
Also, you mentioned PHM. And there are a school of us on here who adhere to the WWAWD approach.
My criticism of the piece was that they offered clearly bogus, but trendy bogus, science to justify a position.
 
I do believe on here we accept honestly given comments as part of a proper discussion. we have to examine all sides of an issue in order to write about it, at least well.
Your post sounded as if you were a bit nervous about the reaction, but it's going to be positive
People will disagree, that is simply life.
Also, you mentioned PHM. And there are a school of us on here who adhere to the WWAWD approach.
My criticism of the piece was that they offered clearly bogus, but trendy bogus, science to justify a position.
I don't understand the acronyms (sorry! Maybe because I'm American?) but I appreciate your sincerity and goodwill.
 
I've been reluctant to join this discussion because 1) I'm not a man 2) Even if I were, I don't believe that one man can speak for all men, just as one woman can't speak for all women 3) I would want to see robust, statistically significant, reliable data, as anecdotal evidence can only go so far.

It's interesting to read each other's thoughts on this topic. I agree with @AgentPete that a healthy dose of sodium is required when reviewing what's being put out there.

As for 'huffing and puffing' and lamentation @RedSquiggle, as you say, agreement isn't necessary, but getting personal and minimising the points of view of others isn't either. 'Would it hurt us to open up a line of dialogue to perspectives that are different...' This whole thread is a dialogue. People should be able to weigh up the info shared and express their thoughts on it without the suggestion of closed-mindedness. This just shuts the conversation down.

'perspectives that are different than what's been trickled down to us by those trying to "get you published" these last several years' - this assumes that Litopians are incapable of critical thinking, mindlessly bobbing their heads along en masse to whatever they're told. Sweeping statements that suggest the commenters are not open to discussing different perspectives are not helpful. Just because an opinion is expressed doesn't mean that they're not open to hearing and discussing the opinions of others in a respectful manner.
I apologize
I've been reluctant to join this discussion because 1) I'm not a man 2) Even if I were, I don't believe that one man can speak for all men, just as one woman can't speak for all women 3) I would want to see robust, statistically significant, reliable data, as anecdotal evidence can only go so far.

It's interesting to read each other's thoughts on this topic. I agree with @AgentPete that a healthy dose of sodium is required when reviewing what's being put out there.

As for 'huffing and puffing' and lamentation @RedSquiggle, as you say, agreement isn't necessary, but getting personal and minimising the points of view of others isn't either. 'Would it hurt us to open up a line of dialogue to perspectives that are different...' This whole thread is a dialogue. People should be able to weigh up the info shared and express their thoughts on it without the suggestion of closed-mindedness. This just shuts the conversation down.

'perspectives that are different than what's been trickled down to us by those trying to "get you published" these last several years' - this assumes that Litopians are incapable of critical thinking, mindlessly bobbing their heads along en masse to whatever they're told. Sweeping statements that suggest the commenters are not open to discussing different perspectives are not helpful. Just because an opinion is expressed doesn't mean that they're not open to hearing and discussing the opinions of others in a respectful manner.
I apologize, Claire G. I think I was a little triggered from watching years of social media commentary (and discussions in other writer forums) go awry. Maybe I had more to do with that than I thought.

I don't think anyone here is close-minded. A big reason I am writing fiction and trying to find new community around that is to escape politics. Then I saw the reactions on this video and it hit a little close to home.

Once again, sorry.
 
I apologize

I apologize, Claire G. I think I was a little triggered from watching years of social media commentary (and discussions in other writer forums) go awry. Maybe I had more to do with that than I thought.

I don't think anyone here is close-minded. A big reason I am writing fiction and trying to find new community around that is to escape politics. Then I saw the reactions on this video and it hit a little close to home.

Once again, sorry.
I understand and thanks for explaining. I've got to say Litopia is a wonderful community full of thoughtful, respectful people, which really does stand out against what other forums can be like. It's a credit to @AgentPete and the guardians.
 
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Hi Squiggle:
I was surprised at your response because the source of the video is very clearly conservative Christian and political. His zeitgeist video he actually posted on election day presents a chart where strong men create weak men that breed strong men etc. This video also supports a strong man vs weak woman election... Cant get more political than that. Wo giving a stiff-armed salute.

Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph, an Australian psychologist is a wonderfully clarifying source for understanding the concepts that need to be discussed about masculinity and boys. He later wrote Raising Girls , about what little girls need growing up. Testosterone and Estrogen when released in utero do affect the brain. Nature evolved testosterone and estrogen for sex and evolution.

( I would agree boys are in trouble, but I would argue the underlying message of the Netflix series is, "Everything you do is wrong. Act at once." which breeds inertia. This from a parent who told her sons they could have a phone when they could buy it with their own money- here's a sword and a horse now go out and play.)

But it is men who control publishing. They are deciding to print more books written by women, especially sexy finger banging books by young women. Which is something the conservative christan author of the videos was especially disapproving of. Personally I think there are probably men interested in what women find sexy. Male porn is quite taken with girl on girl.

Yes there are more women workingin publishing-but frankly it is because the pay is lousy. And notice how the earnings for writers have gone down since women became the predominant readers?

There are Christian publishers who are looking for exactly the books described as "masculine" in the video. Anyone who wants to write for "men" can submit there, but the market principle remains. You may be better off self-publishing and not with the established Amazon choices now. Look for higher risk bigger return new options. Forge a new path.

The premise that men are underserved would mean that a political bias rather than market forces prevail in publishing. Which is the argument of Novel Marketing, the guy in the video. "The libs are starving your testicles of adventure nutrients."

Litopia was founded and is husbanded by one of those poor bastards who has to try, "to get you published." We have often discussed what needs to be suppressed at Huddle. Our conclusion has always been it is unclear, unpolished, self-indulgent , info dumping (and by the way the guy in the video makes clear elsewhere info dumping is bad), writing that doesn't give a damn about the poor reader.
 
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@AgentPete I wish I had posted a brief after listening to the videos. They are interesting in that he has an astute business sense outside of his political bias. The one that I think would be fodder for Huddle is where he asked Chat GPT for publishing predictions in 2025. Ifound them fascinating-maybe because they confirm my hunch to invest in audiobooks wo going into print. Starting at 12:22 you will see the conservative Christian host crowing about young men joining the Catholic and 'Orthodox' churches-something written about in Vanity Fair. Those young men are not religious per se-that is the scary part. They are there for Peter Thiel's movement w Steve Bannon grabbing his share of "peasants" as he refers to them.

 
Hi Squiggle:
I was surprised at your response because the source of the video is very clearly conservative Christian and political. His zeitgeist video he actually posted on election day presents a chart where strong men create weak men that breed strong men etc. This video also supports a strong man vs weak woman election... Cant get more political than that. Wo giving a stiff-armed salute.

Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph, an Australian psychologist is a wonderfully clarifying source for understanding the concepts that need to be discussed about masculinity and boys. He later wrote Raising Girls , about what little girls need growing up. Testosterone and Estrogen when released in utero do affect the brain. Nature evolved testosterone and estrogen for sex and evolution.

( I would agree boys are in trouble, but I would argue the underlying message of the Netflix series is, "Everything you do is wrong. Act at once." which breeds inertia. This from a parent who told her sons they could have a phone when they could buy it with their own money- here's a sword and a horse now go out and play.)

But it is men who control publishing. They are deciding to print more books written by women, especially sexy finger banging books by young women. Which is something the conservative christan author of the videos was especially disapproving of. Personally I think there are probably men interested in what women find sexy. Male porn is quite taken with girl on girl.

Yes there are more women workingin publishing-but frankly it is because the pay is lousy. And notice how the earnings for writers have gone down since women became the predominant readers?

There are Christian publishers who are looking for exactly the books described as "masculine" in the video. Anyone who wants to write for "men" can submit there, but the market principle remains. You may be better off self-publishing and not with the established Amazon choices now. Look for higher risk bigger return new options. Forge a new path.

The premise that men are underserved would mean that a political bias rather than market forces prevail in publishing. Which is the argument of Novel Marketing, the guy in the video. "The libs are starving your testicles of adventure nutrients."

Litopia was founded and is husbanded by one of those poor bastards who has to try, "to get you published." We have often discussed what needs to be suppressed at Huddle. Our conclusion has always been it is unclear, unpolished, self-indulgent , info dumping (and by the way the guy in the video makes clear elsewhere info dumping is bad), writing that doesn't give a damn about the poor reader.
"The premise that men are underserved would mean that a political bias rather than market forces prevail in publishing. Which is the argument of Novel Marketing, the guy in the video. "The libs are starving your testicles of adventure nutrients."

This is not what they said at all. This is NOT a politically motivated shift, it's a demographic one. Of course, if you really believe that's what they think it's going to color your whole perspective.

Now, I think the term "info dump" deserves some clarity. In the video, it is a tongue and cheek use of the term, and obviously the clickbait. I try to abide by what Abraham Lincoln used to say: "whatever you are, be a good one."

Sometimes exposition is necessary to help the reader, and sometimes it can enhance a story--if it's done well. That is the core contention if we're being charitable. Umstadtt often says that none of his advice matters if the book isn't good, so the priority is a good book.

Sometimes back story is necessary, but what do you do with world backstory in a 350 page thriller? You gonna take an extra fifty pages to "work it in so it feels natural" or are you going to pick the right spot and tell it in an engaging and concise way that fits the context?

I think part of the art of fiction is knowing when telling helps and when it hurts. Honestly, I read Blake Crouch's Upgrade recently and was shocked at how quickly and dumps world-building on the table so he can move the story forward. (Honestly it was a little mechanical for me, but would my husband enjoy it? Yeah.)

And what I mean by people "trying to get you published" is a class of mostly female influencers who want to train you along a very specific way of writing fiction. (I waded through a lot of that before I found people like BookFox, who takes a more nuanced approach.) This way (no exposition, no prologues, loads of interiority, relationship focus vs. physical problem focus) happens to favor female editors and female readers. Given these influencers are trying to help you get traditionally published in a (yes, it is) female-populated industry that caters to a mostly female audience, it's pretty good advice. But the result (again, not political, just demographic) is less stuff that interests men.

Nobody is trying to push men out of novels, as if they don't deserve to read. Novel Marketing did not argue that, neither did Kristan McTiernan, who also did a video on this topic. Men just aren't a priority demographic. You can argue that maybe they shouldn't be, because they're content with their video games and their Manga. Others are making a different calculation, thinking they can attract this demographic back to novels as steady readers. It's up to you as a writer what kind of novel you want to write and what kind of readers you want to target. Sex is one factor of many, but an underestimated one.
 
I walked along the riverside with my dog. On a grassy stretch, where Canada geese stood staring at the water, a young man sat on a bench reading a paperback. I glanced at the cover as I passed: Stuart MacBride novel - a traditionally published crime thriller . . . Just sayin' . . .
 
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"The premise that men are underserved would mean that a political bias rather than market forces prevail in publishing. Which is the argument of Novel Marketing, the guy in the video. "The libs are starving your testicles of adventure nutrients."

This is not what they said at all. This is NOT a politically motivated shift, it's a demographic one. Of course, if you really believe that's what they think it's going to color your whole perspective.

Now, I think the term "info dump" deserves some clarity. In the video, it is a tongue and cheek use of the term, and obviously the clickbait. I try to abide by what Abraham Lincoln used to say: "whatever you are, be a good one."

Sometimes exposition is necessary to help the reader, and sometimes it can enhance a story--if it's done well. That is the core contention if we're being charitable. Umstadtt often says that none of his advice matters if the book isn't good, so the priority is a good book.

Sometimes back story is necessary, but what do you do with world backstory in a 350 page thriller? You gonna take an extra fifty pages to "work it in so it feels natural" or are you going to pick the right spot and tell it in an engaging and concise way that fits the context?

I think part of the art of fiction is knowing when telling helps and when it hurts. Honestly, I read Blake Crouch's Upgrade recently and was shocked at how quickly and dumps world-building on the table so he can move the story forward. (Honestly it was a little mechanical for me, but would my husband enjoy it? Yeah.)

And what I mean by people "trying to get you published" is a class of mostly female influencers who want to train you along a very specific way of writing fiction. (I waded through a lot of that before I found people like BookFox, who takes a more nuanced approach.) This way (no exposition, no prologues, loads of interiority, relationship focus vs. physical problem focus) happens to favor female editors and female readers. Given these influencers are trying to help you get traditionally published in a (yes, it is) female-populated industry that caters to a mostly female audience, it's pretty good advice. But the result (again, not political, just demographic) is less stuff that interests men.

Nobody is trying to push men out of novels, as if they don't deserve to read. Novel Marketing did not argue that, neither did Kristan McTiernan, who also did a video on this topic. Men just aren't a priority demographic. You can argue that maybe they shouldn't be, because they're content with their video games and their Manga. Others are making a different calculation, thinking they can attract this demographic back to novels as steady readers. It's up to you as a writer what kind of novel you want to write and what kind of readers you want to target. Sex is one factor of many, but an underestimated one.
Quick addition: "Strong" in "strong men" is not a judgment on virtue. But it is the archetype, if you will, that the T-word fits, and it's why he gained so much traction ("he fights!"). Andrew Jackson fit this archetype, too.

I don't know how it's perceived in your country, but in the States I can tell you many, many Christian conservatives are uneasy about this populist shift toward the strong man and the weakening commitment to rule of law. It is the people least connected to their local churches or foundational theology that are most taken in by T-word, even during this supposed "Catholic revival."

As far as the "weak woman" you perceive as the counterpart, I don't think that's a fair extrapolation. Our previous *male* president was widely considered weak, which is why his v.p. had to step in. I think anthropologically, a "strong woman" could easily come to power in modern society that fits the archetype. "Strong man" is a gendered term, but the fulfillment doesn't have to fit that gender.

Just thought I'd add context for those who didn't watch either video. It's not a necessary discussion for marketing, which is likely why Umstadtt didn't bother to delve into the nuance.
 
I only watched a few minutes of the video, so I can't comment on it. I fancied adding a family note to the books men like debate. Read or ignore, upto you.

My wife and myself are both book readers. We have two 21 year old sons and when they were growing up we encouraged them to read a variety of books. In their teenage years the reading dried up, to be replacing by the X-box.

As adults, one son spends his leisure time on gaming, girlfriend and exercising, in that order. He reads no books at all. I asked him if he had to read a book what would it be? He advised a real life crime biography. He does not watch traditional TV either.
My other son spends his leisure time on gaming, exercising and collecting and studying fossils, in that order. He does not read much, but when he does he prefers non-fiction such as geology and fossil text books, and occasionally history books of WW1 and WW2. The only fiction he would read is on WW1 or WW2. I know he read All Quiet on the Western Front recently. He told me he has Catch 22 on his book shelf ready to read later this year. These two came from a top ten list of war books he saw on the internet.

My wife writes this - "I feel I am a stereotypical female reader; I enjoy books written by Marian Keyes, Katie Fforde and the like!"

I write this - "When I was younger I read mostly fiction; James Clavell, Ian Fleming, Alistair Maclean, Agatha Christie, Raymond Chandler, Charles Dickens, jane Austen. Now I read mostly non fiction, because I can't find well written fiction. Maybe I'm a stereotypical male reader? just completed reading a biography on Burt Reynolds and am now reading Rocket Men by Craig Nelson - about the race into space and Apollo 11.

I would be interested in reading about you and your families reading habits- or not reading habits. All the best. PC.
 
With the exception of Kindle stats being excluded from sales statistics I think this video presented sweeping generalizations about men and women and what they prefer.


I stopped watching when they claimed that in an egalitarian society women gravitated towards nursing and men towards engineering. Of course, referring to Jordan Peterson's writings should've raised a red flag for me.
I also got that far.

As someone who has a 30+ career as an analyst in the STEM field, I can say with confience, that the more specific a statistic is (percent of women in nursing in one society vs another) and the more general the conclusion (women like relationships and men like machines), the more ridiculous the study is.
 
I'd like to introduce Honkai into the discussion, if I may. For those who don't know (like me before hanging out with teens and young adults), Honkai are games with deeply developed narratives involving mainly female protagonists. Of the 50 million players, about 70% are men aged 18 to 34. Yes, there is an Asian focus, but judging by the Reddit community, there is plenty of English-language interest.

I mean, just look at this:

1743556788930.png

Masculine or no?

I cannot emphasize enough that the narrative depth of these games goes beyond button mashing and monster hunting. They deliver intricate evolving storylines that explore profound themes in politics, community, science and philosophy. Characters undergo meaningful transformations throughout their journeys, with complex and satisfying arcs. These stories are so well-written that they create lasting emotional connections between characters and players.

Of course games offer an experience that books can't, but Honkai has also spawned vast quantities of fan fiction on platforms like AO3 and Wattpad with an eager and voracious audience. I have a 15-year-old student who writes Honkai Star Rail fan fiction on Tomato Novel. He once turned his phone on after the lesson, it pinged and he rolled his eyes. We asked why and he shrugged sheepishly and said his readers were notifying him of their desperate need for the next installment of his fan fiction.

So they do read and are capable of diving into intelligent, long-form entertainment, but there is no traditionally published book that would interest this student or his audience. Believe me, I have tried.
 
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