Question: Asking for feedback: pros and cons

[Mel L]

I'm just wondering what fellow Litopians think about seeking feedback from other writers on a WIP.
How often do you do this and at what stage(s) of your process? Does input from beta readers always help you? Do you ever find it confusing or distracting to get different opinions on your work rather than follow your own muse?
Trying to decide if I should plough through a redraft of my novel (based on earlier input here) before seeking feedback again, or take the chance on losing my mojo in asking what others think earlier in the process, ie several chapters in, to potentially avoid wasting time on something that's not working.

 

[Vagabond Heart]

Utterly great question.

Speaking only for myself, I get as much feedback as I can, as often as I can.

Got it for a completed novel, and it helped enormously with the rewriting.

Am getting it on first chapters, to see if I engage the reader in the right way. Has helped me realise whose story I needed to start with (have 2 alternating character narrators).

Got more feedback when I was 10,000 words in, to make sure I was pushing the story along, and not info-dumping too much (I was info-dumping too much).

Have had Beta readers comment on whole books (terrifically helpful) and help me start the way I need to go on (frankly, even more helpful).

Yes, we'd all like it if they fed back that this was the novel that changed their life, oh my god, what a masterpiece, lol.

But when they don't (notice it's a when, not an if in my case), I just take a deep breath and go, 'okayyyy'....
Then I read the notes over a few times so they sit in the back of my head, and start over.

And every frigging time I produce something better than I previously had, or than I knew I could.
And I'm learning to trust that that will keep happening.

So I don't lose my mojo even if, for a while, I'm thinking, 'fuck, how do I do this then?'

And also, any time spent working on something is NEVER time wasted. Is called practicing your craft, baby girl.

 

[CageSage]

I keep a little note near the computer to remind me that the story is meant to be read by other people, which also reminds me to get some of those other people to help me make it as clear and concise and meaningful to them as possible. At all stages of the process, often including the initiating idea - which can save me a lot of time if no one thinks it has legs.
Beta readers are the last in the process before it goes out to become independent of the writer.

 

[RK Wallis]

Such a good question!

For me (completely respecting everyone has a different process and path), I've written by ear (or gut), by beat sheet, by the method in Story Genius (and I'm sure there's more) and every time, eyes on my WIP has been an essential part of the process. With the first chapter, I prefer a wide cross-section of readers to give me their reactions. After that, I have critique partners read the first third/half (a few times), so I can channel the book in the right direction. They are trusted people who also write in my genre (and preferably read it too). I'm constantly throwing something up for critique (a private group), and I make sure every week I'm doing critiquing for others because I learn how to fix something in my WIP when I help someone else.

I try to learn to recognise for myself what's working and what isn't (and helping to organise the Craft Chat from here has helped me greatly with that) but I fully intend to have critique partners read the full book when cooked, and then after their feedback, I'll move on to beta readers (and at this stage, I'll be asking readers not writers for their reaction).

Any queries sent off before I'm finished are just to keep my writing of my queries/synopsis skills as sharp as they can be. I'm hoping for rejection until I'm done. I don't want the pressure.

Ultimately, the way I see it, I'd rather a critique partner tell me something is off. Better that than a reviewer.

 

[Hannah F]

We as writers are always blind to certain loop-hopes or inconsistencies, omit-ers of important info (because we already know it) and other flaws which will lower reader satisfaction/increase likelihood of rejection (which is high to start with). The only people who can make you aware of these problems are those giving you feedback. So, yes, feedback on your WIP is very important. Feedback with differing opinions is fine too. Read them, mull over them and decide which resonates with you.

 

[Matteon]

I learnt early on in my (short) writing journey, feedback and critique are invaluable. Also, learning how to give critique makes you a stronger writer, as you find out what makes for better reading. And anytime is the right time to request feedback; it's the nourishment needed in the novel marathon. I'm at the early stage of my craft and don't have beta-readers, but I'd love to get to know some. Which reminds me, I must post a piece for comment soon.

 

[Eva Ulian]

@Mel L Why don't you join our live huddle meetings on Saturdays at 5pm UK time and ask that same question? That way we will get to know each other better and get a feel of what each other's writing is about. We also critique each other's writing at the meetings too and I can't tell you how valuable that is, I for one have benefitted loads... besides, I'd love to meet you face to face Saturday Writers' Huddle

 

[RK Wallis]

@Mel L Why don't you join our live huddle meetings on Saturdays at 5pm UK time and ask that same question? That way we will get to know each other better and get a feel of what each other's writing is about. We also critique each other's writing at the meetings too and I can't tell you how valuable that is, I for one have benefitted loads... besides, I'd love to meet you face to face Saturday Writers' Huddle

Brilliant idea, Eva! Do come with that question @Mel L

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I echo what others have said--feedback is essential. And even when I don't ultimately agree with the feedback, it often makes me consider more carefully my intent in a particular place or work. I may say, "Yep, you don't like the feeling you got reading that bit, and that's exactly what I was aiming for." Or I might consider whether the contentious part is even necessary, or whether it needs to be reframed or moved to a different place in the story, or whatever.

I generally don't ask for feedback until I've completed the first draft and an initial round or two of edits--I don't want to waste my feedback on problems I can see myself. For short stories, I'll usually only have one or two people read them, but for novels, I have my husband do an alpha read--he's good at picking up inconsistencies, characters acting out of character, and areas of confusion (he also always asks for dragons, so I do have to take his suggestions with a grain of salt. LOL!). After another round of edits of my own, I send it out to up to a dozen beta readers--both fellow writers and folks in my target market. I guide their feedback with a questionnaire that helps them provide useful comments, not just stuff like--it was great. After I incorporate beta readers' comments, I do another couple of edits, just to pick up details, and then it goes to the professional editor.

 

[Mel L]

Utterly great question.

Speaking only for myself, I get as much feedback as I can, as often as I can.

Got it for a completed novel, and it helped enormously with the rewriting.

Am getting it on first chapters, to see if I engage the reader in the right way. Has helped me realise whose story I needed to start with (have 2 alternating character narrators).

Got more feedback when I was 10,000 words in, to make sure I was pushing the story along, and not info-dumping too much (I was info-dumping too much).

Have had Beta readers comment on whole books (terrifically helpful) and help me start the way I need to go on (frankly, even more helpful).

Yes, we'd all like it if they fed back that this was the novel that changed their life, oh my god, what a masterpiece, lol.

But when they don't (notice it's a when, not an if in my case), I just take a deep breath and go, 'okayyyy'....
Then I read the notes over a few times so they sit in the back of my head, and start over.

And every frigging time I produce something better than I previously had, or than I knew I could.
And I'm learning to trust that that will keep happening.

So I don't lose my mojo even if, for a while, I'm thinking, 'fuck, how do I do this then?'

And also, any time spent working on something is NEVER time wasted. Is called practicing your craft, baby girl.

Thank you for sharing your insights, Vagabond Heart.
Absolutely agree that this kind of feedback is essential! And I do realize that it's not 'if' but 'when' for me too, and that the input will be invaluable.
But if you keep going back and starting again, how do you ever finish? I get that writing is an iterative process but sometimes the dynamic between learning and doing is so intimately bound it's hard to determine what you need to do next.

 

[Mel L]

I keep a little note near the computer to remind me that the story is meant to be read by other people, which also reminds me to get some of those other people to help me make it as clear and concise and meaningful to them as possible. At all stages of the process, often including the initiating idea - which can save me a lot of time if no one thinks it has legs.
Beta readers are the last in the process before it goes out to become independent of the writer.

Good tip about the little note reminding us to think of the audience. Clearly you are seeking input at all stages. I need to build the confidence to do that.

 

[Mel L]

Such a good question!

For me (completely respecting everyone has a different process and path), I've written by ear (or gut), by beat sheet, by the method in Story Genius (and I'm sure there's more) and every time, eyes on my WIP has been an essential part of the process. With the first chapter, I prefer a wide cross-section of readers to give me their reactions. After that, I have critique partners read the first third/half (a few times), so I can channel the book in the right direction. They are trusted people who also write in my genre (and preferably read it too). I'm constantly throwing something up for critique (a private group), and I make sure every week I'm doing critiquing for others because I learn how to fix something in my WIP when I help someone else.

I try to learn to recognise for myself what's working and what isn't (and helping to organise the Craft Chat from here has helped me greatly with that) but I fully intend to have critique partners read the full book when cooked, and then after their feedback, I'll move on to beta readers (and at this stage, I'll be asking readers not writers for their reaction).

Any queries sent off before I'm finished are just to keep my writing of my queries/synopsis skills as sharp as they can be. I'm hoping for rejection until I'm done. I don't want the pressure.

Ultimately, the way I see it, I'd rather a critique partner tell me something is off. Better that than a reviewer.

So glad I asked!
I like the way you put it: 'eyes on my WIP'. Until you've been through the full process as a writer, it can be hard to distinguish between critiques, alpha and beta readers. But your point that having other eyes look at the writing at different stages is well taken.
I do find that what I've learned here so far on craft here has been hugely helpful in reading my own work critically (and that of others). Definitely need to do more critiquing to round out that process.

 

[Mel L]

We as writers are always blind to certain loop-hopes or inconsistencies, omit-ers of important info (because we already know it) and other flaws which will lower reader satisfaction/increase likelihood of rejection (which is high to start with). The only people who can make you aware of these problems are those giving you feedback. So, yes, feedback on your WIP is very important. Feedback with differing opinions is fine too. Read them, mull over them and decide which resonates with you.

I can only agree about the value of the input. So far I've learned a ton on this platform about my own blind spots (along with POV slips and other craft issues). It's a question of when and how much. We all have different processes and comfort zones. I really have to push myself to be social when it comes to my writer self. But clearly the unanimous view is the more feedback the better!

 

[Mel L]

I learnt early on in my (short) writing journey, feedback and critique are invaluable. Also, learning how to give critique makes you a stronger writer, as you find out what makes for better reading. And anytime is the right time to request feedback; it's the nourishment needed in the novel marathon. I'm at the early stage of my craft and don't have beta-readers, but I'd love to get to know some. Which reminds me, I must post a piece for comment soon.

Hi Matteon! Like you, I'm at an early stage in terms of the whole critiquing process. I know I need feedback but really have to push myself to ask for it. Glad if this serves as a reminder to you to post a piece soon!

 

[Mel L]

I echo what others have said--feedback is essential. And even when I don't ultimately agree with the feedback, it often makes me consider more carefully my intent in a particular place or work. I may say, "Yep, you don't like the feeling you got reading that bit, and that's exactly what I was aiming for." Or I might consider whether the contentious part is even necessary, or whether it needs to be reframed or moved to a different place in the story, or whatever.

I generally don't ask for feedback until I've completed the first draft and an initial round or two of edits--I don't want to waste my feedback on problems I can see myself. For short stories, I'll usually only have one or two people read them, but for novels, I have my husband do an alpha read--he's good at picking up inconsistencies, characters acting out of character, and areas of confusion (he also always asks for dragons, so I do have to take his suggestions with a grain of salt. LOL!). After another round of edits of my own, I send it out to up to a dozen beta readers--both fellow writers and folks in my target market. I guide their feedback with a questionnaire that helps them provide useful comments, not just stuff like--it was great. After I incorporate beta readers' comments, I do another couple of edits, just to pick up details, and then it goes to the professional editor.

Wow, you are really organized! Sounds like you have a well-structured feedback system in place.
Glad to hear someone else who prefers to wait for feedback until the first draft or edit is complete (although from the sounds of it you are further along and can probably better afford to do so).
Good point too about taking opinions on board even if you don't agree -- there is always value to be gleaned from other's perspectives (however painful it can feel at times).
Also, I envy you having your husband willing/able to do an alpha read. Haven't tried asking mine yet and not sure he would be helpful...but pretty sure he wouldn't ask for dragons!

 

[Mel L]

@Mel L Why don't you join our live huddle meetings on Saturdays at 5pm UK time and ask that same question? That way we will get to know each other better and get a feel of what each other's writing is about. We also critique each other's writing at the meetings too and I can't tell you how valuable that is, I for one have benefitted loads... besides, I'd love to meet you face to face Saturday Writers' Huddle

Thanks for suggesting it, Eva! Starting with a question for group discussion sounds like a good way to break the ice. I will try to make it to one soon.

 

[Vagabond Heart]

Thank you for sharing your insights, Vagabond Heart.
Absolutely agree that this kind of feedback is essential! And I do realize that it's not 'if' but 'when' for me too, and that the input will be invaluable.
But if you keep going back and starting again, how do you ever finish? I get that writing is an iterative process but sometimes the dynamic between learning and doing is so intimately bound it's hard to determine what you need to do next.

So glad you’ve had lots of replies to this, and lots of different viewpoints. Was, as I said, an excellent question.

As regards, ‘how do I ever finish’ - I’ve found that waiting until I’ve written the whole thing before asking for feedback makes it harder to change things that genuinely need changing. By then, too much can be dependent on the thing that needs changing, and trying to do so upsets the whole apple cart.

I think of it like stacking plates - if the bottom few are wobbly, the whole stack is unstable. But if I check for stability (like, is the dialogue flowing, are there any plot holes, am I using the right POV, etc) as I go along, I have less to do when I start the re-writes.

Plus, I find it easier to get on and finish, as I’m more confident in what I’m doing, and am not second-guessing as I go along.

And it’s such a bummer to write a whole sodding book only to hear that something major in it just doesn’t work for the reader. Then you’re not just editing, but having to do massive plot changes, and is just sooo much more work. Lol, no thanks.

Xxx looking forward to seeing you at a Huddle xx

 

[Pamela Jo]

I think it's like baking pies. You can read the recipes and the directions, but in the end the true test is in the eating. For that I'm very interested in what a reader in my target audience says after the first draft. If they love the story even with the plot holes that need darning and the head hopping that needs sorting, then I want to hear what other writers say. They can offer me craft to hone the story. Lee Child said something that I really get. "People ask where my ideas come from. Ideas are not the problem. I can get twelve a day. It's choosing the idea with legs that can carry a reader all the way through from beginning to end and all the stuff in between that is the problem." Paraphrasing a bit.

 

[Dorm Ant]

Second draft is usually my go-to time for feedback. It's very useful (essential) and I get as much as I can, though find there are two problems that need to be taken into account.
1. Some readers brim with questions and want everything spelled out to them, because they can't handle ambiguity, foreshadowing or mystery. Other readers hate any kind of patronising and want to figure things out as they go along, with minimal explaining.
2. These two camps will give feedback that contradicts each other.

 

[Mel L]

I think it's like baking pies. You can read the recipes and the directions, but in the end the true test is in the eating. For that I'm very interested in what a reader in my target audience says after the first draft. If they love the story even with the plot holes that need darning and the head hopping that needs sorting, then I want to hear what other writers say. They can offer me craft to hone the story. Lee Child said something that I really get. "People ask where my ideas come from. Ideas are not the problem. I can get twelve a day. It's choosing the idea with legs that can carry a reader all the way through from beginning to end and all the stuff in between that is the problem." Paraphrasing a bit.

Interesting approach! Your reader is the ultimate judge I suppose, so a good litmus test to start with. And I do agree about ideas -- guess they're like romantic partners. Lots of potential candidates about but only a few you'd considering building a whole relationship with.

 

[Mel L]

Second draft is usually my go-to time for feedback. It's very useful (essential) and I get as much as I can, though find there are two problems that need to be taken into account.
1. Some readers brim with questions and want everything spelled out to them, because they can't handle ambiguity, foreshadowing or mystery. Other readers hate any kind of patronising and want to figure things out as they go along, with minimal explaining.
2. These two camps will give feedback that contradicts each other.

That's it exactly! I find this hard as I'm currently learning to 'resist the urge to explain' (and generally finding my story better for it), yet that kind of feedback is a red flag that people are not going to understand. I suppose with experience it's easier to weigh the contradictions in the balance. And ultimately as writers I guess we have to decide for ourselves. Thanks!

 

[Robinne Weiss]

As regards, ‘how do I ever finish’ - I’ve found that waiting until I’ve written the whole thing before asking for feedback makes it harder to change things that genuinely need changing. By then, too much can be dependent on the thing that needs changing, and trying to do so upsets the whole apple cart.

Indeed! My first novel, I ended up throwing away the whole second half of the book and extensively rewriting the first half after feedback. But I probably wouldn't have gotten the same feedback had I asked for it before I'd finished. Further strengthening the argument that feedback is useful at any stage of the process. I love how we all have different ways of getting feedback and times that we do it--there's no one right way, as long as you DO get feedback.

 

[Hannah F]

I'm a plotter so I write a structure for the novel first. I like to get feedback on this because it tells me if this story is how it should be. Then I write a first draft, and nobody sees the first draft except me. This gives me the confidence to just write for the fun of writing. It doesn't matter if whole chapters get thrown out or even if I veer slightly off structure (if I like the veer, I'll ask for feedback on my new structure). After my second edit, I have a couple of prolific reader friends (who also read in genre) to give me general feedback. Then, after another edit, I ask for writer feedback. I've learnt that it doesn't matter if I have to make major changes because, meantime, my writing is improving, I'm getting to know my characters even better, and I have idea fodder for other stories. Nothing is wasted.