Craft Chat Submitting to agents

[RK Wallis]

it’s difficult to know when to move on.

It gets easier, I promise : ) you just know.

 

[Aethalope]

The whole Royal Road, Inkitt, Webnovel brigade is increasingly becoming a predatory minefield. There was a recent hoo-ha on RR with a publisher called Shadowlight Press snapping up authors and plying them with contracts that included clauses like:

An irrevocable 10-year grant of rights that demands every right in existence and renews to infinity
(source: Writers Beware)

Writers post their stuff for fun. Stuff gets popular and the publishers come knocking. Without someone whose job it is to know these things (e.g. an agent), it's difficult to identify predators.

 

[LJ Beck]

Thanks for starting this thread @Lakeland Waffler . I was thinking it would be good to have a thread that's encouraging and supportive for those who are submitting. I'm about to wade into that lake in the next week or two, and am girding my loins for the experience. haha. Pain shared is halved or something, right?

My "plan" is to query 5 agents (or publishers who take unsolicited queries) per week for the next 6 months. 125 queries. Playing the numbers rather than feeling like every query is a nail-bitter. While I'm querying, I'll work on my next book.

I was tossed around in the screenwriting tumble-dryer for a long time, so that toughened me up somewhat. I learned to be okay with rejections and I consider a no-reply a rejection. Separating myself (my identity and my worth) from my stories and their worth helps. The rejection is for the story, not me. Some stories don't hit the mark, other stories do. And even when they do, they won't with everyone. It's the way of things. Let's see what I say about that when I'm 50 rejections in. haha.

I'd love to hear resources others are using for the query game. Other than Litopia of course! I've just signed up for Authors Publish Magazine - thanks for the rec!! Here's some of mine:

https://duotrope.com/ - this one is great. It is $80/year NZD (I don't know what it is in other currency) I have collected a list of 100 targeted agents to query from this newsletter alone. They send a weekly update that covers the latest changes in publications (paying and non paying) agent listings added and agents that are now open (and closed) to queries and a bunch more info like upcoming deadlines of various things. The newsletter links all the names to their site where you can get details. For agents, it gives their bio, website, and wish list stuffs. Very well done.

QueryTracker - of course. Which is free. This has various searches to get a targeted list and track queries if you want.

Jane Friedman's publishing newsletter. She has a free version that I get that's very interesting.

The Bottom Line: Jane's publishing industry newsletter | Jane Friedman

Become a subscriber today or purchase a gift subscription There is also a free version—upgrade later if you're not sure if this newsletter is right for

janefriedman.com

I've taken webinars from Jane's site (queries and synopsis with Jessica Strawser and one on author websites with Jane) and they've all been excellent.

Speaking of author websites... do you have one?

 

[RK Wallis]

Apparently Publishers Marketplace is the bee-all-and-end-all of the US market, but it costs, and I already pay for Querytracker (which I love because the paid version offers stats which helps me who to query and who might respond - I can manage my expectations). For me, the pension only goes so far.

I follow here on YouTube to find agents and, by watching, find something to make a connection with in that personalisation line Pete bangs on about This is primarily US agents, but here is where I do the same thing for the UK market.

No author website yet, or social media. I want to concentrate on the writing.

 

[LJ Beck]

Apparently Publishers Marketplace is the bee-all-and-end-all of the US market, but it costs, and I already pay for Querytracker (which I love because the paid version offers stats which helps me who to query and who might respond - I can manage my expectations). For me, the pension only goes so far.

I follow here on YouTube to find agents and, by watching, find something to make a connection with in that personalisation line Pete bangs on about This is primarily US agents, but here is where I do the same thing for the UK market.

No author website yet, or social media. I want to concentrate on the writing.

Thanks for those resources!! Fab!

Ah, maybe I pay for Query tracker... ??

 

[RK Wallis]

Thanks for those resources!! Fab!

Ah, maybe I pay for Query tracker... ??

So worth it, and it's affordable. Once a year subscription for under $50. Hell, yeah! It took me a few of my books to really get the hang of how I can use it the way I want, but that's because I didn't spend time to learn up front. I just picked it up as I went along.

 

[Hannah Faoileán]

When submitting and almost inevitably receiving rejections, it is important to remember there are many reasons for rejection, and also, they haven't a scooby who you are so they are rejecting the submission, not you.

Reasons: a) You didn't follow the submission guidelines - so many people fall by the wayside because of this fact.
b) Your writing craft or story structuring craft is not yet ready for this next step - many will submit too soon or before more experienced eyes have critiqued their work. The work doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be at a nearly publishable stage or the agent will see themselves as having too much work to do.
c) you've submitted to an agent who is not interested in your genre/target age group

If you have followed the guidelines and your work is great, and the agent has your type of stuff on their wishlist . . .
d) the agent has an author on their list who they are championing for the same publisher/market space as they would be championing your book. This would result in a conflict of interest for them.
e) despite what their wishlist says, they are presently looking for something very specific and yours isn't it (that goes for judges at competitions too)
f) your work is brilliant, but according to today's predicted trends (ie what will sell in 18 months to 2 years, the average for a publisher acquisition to print) its saleability is a gamble (e.g. Romantasy is getting saturated. The established names will still sell, but it is predicted that it will be more difficult for a debut to break into this market, unless you have a hugely original twist on the genre).
g) your book is way too long. Printing costs. A sure thing like Maggie O'Farrell/ Rebecca Yarros/the latest TikTok influencer sensation can write as thick a book as they like, but an agent/publisher will be wary of the cost when dealing with an unknown author. (Know your target wordcount!)
h) there is nothing in your query that suggests this agent/publisher is not just one from a blanket send-to-all, and/or nothing in the query gives an insight into your personality/why you wrote this book.

There are more reasons. We could add to this list. But the point is, rejections don't necessarily (and often don't) mean poor quality. Believe in your work, keep improving, and keep submitting.

 

[Hannah Faoileán]

Finding agents UK: Writers and Artists Yearbook (or children-specific one), the acknowledgements at the end of books you love (will lead you to UK and US agents), word of mouth (ask whenever you get the chance), follow a target agent on social media and check out who they follow or tag in threads.

 

[E G Logan]

follow a target agent

But once you feel sure they are 'the one' for you – and perhaps they are: Good luck – don't be too heart-broken if it's a 'Not right for me at this time' from them. Or, worse, just silence....

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

Ok, so, forgive me, but I have a submission strategy question-

Some of you might have seen that I put my synopsis through the Lab last week. This afternoon I ‘huddled’ my cover letter, with a view to making a fresh round of submissions soon, which is the reason for putting it in this thread.

One point that came up in feedback on the synopsis, was the ending, which does leave things on somewhat of a cliffhanger - my protagonist sees (right at the end) what happened to her brother Scott, who went missing 30 years ago (it’s a time slip mystery).

The feedback was the cliffhanger might be a no no for agents, which I completely get and agree with. However, my intention is that this will be a trilogy and in this book, I answer the ‘what happened’ to Scott, in the next I answer the ‘why’ (to keep him safe) and find him and in the final book, the bigger mystery that connects Scott and his sister to the past is wrapped up.

So my question is - with regards to agents and cliffhangers - am I better off
A) explaining this in my covering letter? (although I fear it will make it quite lengthy)
B) cracking on and writing the next book before submitting, if not the last one too, so I have evidence of the complete plot/arc?
C) self publishing the first book (it should have decent local interest, fingers crossed) whilst cracking on and writing the second then third and if I have some local success, submitting the second book to agents?(I’m not even sure this is a done thing??)
D) rewrite the ending so it’s not a cliffhanger, but I think this is going to add too much, go over my ideal word count for genre and leave it at a point that won’t seem natural to start the next book, if that makes sense
E) some other strategy I haven’t considered?

Anybody else in this same boat???

 

[Sedayne]

F) resolve the cliffhanger in the synopsis but hold the actual drama over for the follow up book
G) have the unanswered cliffhanger in the synopsis with to be continued in the sequel

Self-publishing the first of a trilogy but trying to trad publish the sequels doesn't make sense to me. But I could be wrong.

My own sequel is hinted at in the ending of my synopsis, but only vaguely, and the first book does resolve. Huddle South didn't have a problem with that. Obviously I've no idea what agents think because who does?

The ideal is to have a trilogy where the individual volumes can stand alone too rather than it feeling like one story split into three. The best series do this - leave the reader wanting more but don't leave them unsatisfied. The time lag for publishing sequels is likely a year or more and attention spans are unfortunately short.

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

F) resolve the cliffhanger in the synopsis but hold the actual drama over for the follow up book
G) have the unanswered cliffhanger in the synopsis with to be continued in the sequel

Self-publishing the first of a trilogy but trying to trad publish the sequels doesn't make sense to me. But I could be wrong.

My own sequel is hinted at in the ending of my synopsis, but only vaguely, and the first book does resolve. Huddle South didn't have a problem with that. Obviously I've no idea what agents think because who does?

The ideal is to have a trilogy where the individual volumes can stand alone too rather than it feeling like one story split into three. The best series do this - leave the reader wanting more but don't leave them unsatisfied. The time lag for publishing sequels is likely a year or more and attention spans are unfortunately short.

Thanks Rachel

Thanks for reading my long winded ruminations. That's a great help.

F seems like a great idea. I feel like, yes, I'll be leaving it on a cliffhanger in book 1 but you find out what has happened to him, just not the why, so in that case I felt it would work as a standalone book.

Clare x

 

[Sedayne]

you find out what has happened to him, just not the why,

Yes, that's a brilliant way to resolve the first and hook for the next.

 

[BrianY]

I think that niche publishing the first book is a solid possibility. There was a time when the Lakes were filled with local publishers and that visitors to the area would buy a book or two of local interest while they were there.

My personal opinion is that a small local publisher can place your books in the right places and know well where they are.

 

[Hannah Faoileán]

Ok, so, forgive me, but I have a submission strategy question-

Some of you might have seen that I put my synopsis through the Lab last week. This afternoon I ‘huddled’ my cover letter, with a view to making a fresh round of submissions soon, which is the reason for putting it in this thread.

One point that came up in feedback on the synopsis, was the ending, which does leave things on somewhat of a cliffhanger - my protagonist sees (right at the end) what happened to her brother Scott, who went missing 30 years ago (it’s a time slip mystery).

The feedback was the cliffhanger might be a no no for agents, which I completely get and agree with. However, my intention is that this will be a trilogy and in this book, I answer the ‘what happened’ to Scott, in the next I answer the ‘why’ (to keep him safe) and find him and in the final book, the bigger mystery that connects Scott and his sister to the past is wrapped up.

So my question is - with regards to agents and cliffhangers - am I better off
A) explaining this in my covering letter? (although I fear it will make it quite lengthy)
B) cracking on and writing the next book before submitting, if not the last one too, so I have evidence of the complete plot/arc?
C) self publishing the first book (it should have decent local interest, fingers crossed) whilst cracking on and writing the second then third and if I have some local success, submitting the second book to agents?(I’m not even sure this is a done thing??)
D) rewrite the ending so it’s not a cliffhanger, but I think this is going to add too much, go over my ideal word count for genre and leave it at a point that won’t seem natural to start the next book, if that makes sense
E) some other strategy I haven’t considered?

Anybody else in this same boat???

a) Your covering letter is a Sell not a Tell. You don't have to say anything about the ending other than this can be a standalone or the first of a trilogy, and that you have a working synopsis/ you have plotted/drafted the rest of the trilogy and will be happy to discuss these with (agent) [let them feel involved in the process].
b) you can crack on and write a first draft of your sequels, but unless you're self-publishing (then it would be a good idea in terms of quickly releasing the next instalment) you may be giving yourself a lot of wasted work time as your agent/publisher may have other ideas on what should be in these books (which you don't have to agree with, but maybe you will).
c) Agents/publishers are only interested in taking on a second book if the self-published first has been a HUGE success (think Rebecca Yarros level of success). If you self-publish book 1, be prepared to self-publish all three.
d) Make sure the book ending provides a definite resolution to your story so that your reader doesn't need to read another to find out what the answer to your story question is. So finish with not so much of a cliffhanger but a dangling teaser. [Satisfied? Cool. But here is another strand to the story, another question that will be answered in book 2.]

Why do agents/publishers prefer the first story to be a standalone even if the end goal is a trilogy? Because, with an unknown debut author, they need to wait and see how well the book sells. If it sells really well, they will want more. If they don't think a sequel is worth the financial risk, they are more likely to ask you for a different story (probably aimed at the same target readership to help you build a brand).

Hope this helps

 

[LJ Beck]

What Hannah said. I'll try not to repeat but support.

So my question is - with regards to agents and cliffhangers - am I better off
A) explaining this in my covering letter? (although I fear it will make it quite lengthy)

Just hook em in the cover letter. Hannah covered this. The synopsis should plot out the ending. But no "explanations" - just the plot. Like that's so easy. Bloody synopsis! ha.

B) cracking on and writing the next book before submitting, if not the last one too, so I have evidence of the complete plot/arc?

This won't help sell the first book, AFAIK. The first book needs to stand on it's own as a complete story.

C) self publishing the first book (it should have decent local interest, fingers crossed) whilst cracking on and writing the second then third and if I have some local success, submitting the second book to agents?(I’m not even sure this is a done thing??)

What Hannah said. There are agents and publishers who say they don't want books (or series) that have been published before. That said, if you self pub and it becomes a best seller, then all bets are off. Navigating self-pub vs trad or a hybrid of that is complicated and ever-changing. What's true today might change tomorrow. There are also places springing up that specialize in taking on self-pub'ed authors. I dunno. It's shifting sands atm.

D) rewrite the ending so it’s not a cliffhanger, but I think this is going to add too much, go over my ideal word count for genre and leave it at a point that won’t seem natural to start the next book, if that makes sense

Even TV series are changing with season to season cliffhanger endings. People don't want to wait for season 2 to find out. It's this "immediate" culture we're in now. Question for you... is the main pressing question for this book (doesn't have to be the whole enchilada, but the one that readers will NEED TO KNOW) answered at the end of this book? If not, that's going to show up in your synopsis and might turn off agents/publishers. What do your beta readers say? Did they find the ending completely satisfying or were they annoyed at being left hanging? Might be worth considering this to market it to trad pub.

I think if this is an issue it will show up in your synopsis. Have you popped your synopsis (the one you're using to query) into the lab?

 

[RK Wallis]

@Hannah Faoileán is totally right, never tell. Here's a writing mantra for you: resist the urge to explain. Never explain.

I planned a trilogy a few times, and my last one I planned six books. No bites. If agents, who are readers, aren't interested in book 1, I personally don't believe I could successfully publish that book. And if I can't sell book 1, why waste my time writing its trilogy?

Every time I queried these book 1's, I did not mention my plans because I've read so many trilogies, I personally prefer each book when it stands alone. My own reading tastes help me decide how I query.

Cliffhangers are for chapters. At the end of the book they feel gimmicky, and as a reader it pisses me off when an author is too obviously trying to get me to buy the next book. I feel cheated and will never buy that author again.

Having said that, there is a way to handle the ending so you draw readers into a trilogy. Ask yourself: what is book 1's main story question? As long as you answer that question, you can still have your overarching trilogy question as: will she find her brother? Then you can totally leave that question unanswered.

self publishing the first book

You should ask yourself: what path do you want your writing career to take? Do you want sales or are you content just to get your book out for family and friends with low sales? Anything is okay, just as long as you're happy.

Self pubbing is a very different beast to trad pubbing. Successful self publishers prepare an entire trilogy before they release it. Self pub is fast, bang, bang, bang. Trad pub is ssslllooowww. Like 2 years (and that's after you query agents and sell to a publisher). So if you self pub book 1, you're going to lose readers for book 2 because the wait is too long.

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

I think that niche publishing the first book is a solid possibility. There was a time when the Lakes were filled with local publishers and that visitors to the area would buy a book or two of local interest while they were there.

My personal opinion is that a small local publisher can place your books in the right places and know well where they are.

Thanks Brian

I’d love to be able to publish locally but try as I might, I can’t find any local publishers that are taking fiction, barring one that has closed their submission window for the next 18 months.

If anyone is aware of any, I’d love to hear about them.

Clare x

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

a) Your covering letter is a Sell not a Tell. You don't have to say anything about the ending other than this can be a standalone or the first of a trilogy, and that you have a working synopsis/ you have plotted/drafted the rest of the trilogy and will be happy to discuss these with (agent) [let them feel involved in the process].
b) you can crack on and write a first draft of your sequels, but unless you're self-publishing (then it would be a good idea in terms of quickly releasing the next instalment) you may be giving yourself a lot of wasted work time as your agent/publisher may have other ideas on what should be in these books (which you don't have to agree with, but maybe you will).
c) Agents/publishers are only interested in taking on a second book if the self-published first has been a HUGE success (think Rebecca Yarros level of success). If you self-publish book 1, be prepared to self-publish all three.
d) Make sure the book ending provides a definite resolution to your story so that your reader doesn't need to read another to find out what the answer to your story question is. So finish with not so much of a cliffhanger but a dangling teaser. [Satisfied? Cool. But here is another strand to the story, another question that will be answered in book 2.]

Why do agents/publishers prefer the first story to be a standalone even if the end goal is a trilogy? Because, with an unknown debut author, they need to wait and see how well the book sells. If it sells really well, they will want more. If they don't think a sequel is worth the financial risk, they are more likely to ask you for a different story (probably aimed at the same target readership to help you build a brand).

Hope this helps

Hi Hannah

Thanks so much for taking the time to leave a detailed reply, as well as for your huddle comments on my cover letter on Saturday. All a massive help.

I’ve read through your comments and possibly it is a case of d) that the ending is a dangling teaser rather than a whopping big cliffhanger - you find out what happened to Sam’s brother on the day he went missing - it was their Dad that took him. So the teaser question is obviously why?
I didnt necessarily write it as a cliffhanger either, more an unexpected twist.

i might do one or two submissions and see if there’s any feedback in regards to the ending.

Thanks again for your help.

Clare x

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

What Hannah said. I'll try not to repeat but support.

So my question is - with regards to agents and cliffhangers - am I better off
A) explaining this in my covering letter? (although I fear it will make it quite lengthy)

Just hook em in the cover letter. Hannah covered this. The synopsis should plot out the ending. But no "explanations" - just the plot. Like that's so easy. Bloody synopsis! ha.

B) cracking on and writing the next book before submitting, if not the last one too, so I have evidence of the complete plot/arc?

This won't help sell the first book, AFAIK. The first book needs to stand on it's own as a complete story.

C) self publishing the first book (it should have decent local interest, fingers crossed) whilst cracking on and writing the second then third and if I have some local success, submitting the second book to agents?(I’m not even sure this is a done thing??)

What Hannah said. There are agents and publishers who say they don't want books (or series) that have been published before. That said, if you self pub and it becomes a best seller, then all bets are off. Navigating self-pub vs trad or a hybrid of that is complicated and ever-changing. What's true today might change tomorrow. There are also places springing up that specialize in taking on self-pub'ed authors. I dunno. It's shifting sands atm.

D) rewrite the ending so it’s not a cliffhanger, but I think this is going to add too much, go over my ideal word count for genre and leave it at a point that won’t seem natural to start the next book, if that makes sense

Even TV series are changing with season to season cliffhanger endings. People don't want to wait for season 2 to find out. It's this "immediate" culture we're in now. Question for you... is the main pressing question for this book (doesn't have to be the whole enchilada, but the one that readers will NEED TO KNOW) answered at the end of this book? If not, that's going to show up in your synopsis and might turn off agents/publishers. What do your beta readers say? Did they find the ending completely satisfying or were they annoyed at being left hanging? Might be worth considering this to market it to trad pub.

I think if this is an issue it will show up in your synopsis. Have you popped your synopsis (the one you're using to query) into the lab?

Hi @LJ Beck

Many thanks for your comments. Hugely appreciated, as always!

So I’ve given this some more thought, as I’ve read replies and I’m confident it does stand up as a stand alone book. The twist at the end - you find out what happened to Sam’s brother on the day he went missing, it was their Dad that took him - answers what happened to him, which was the question posed at the start. You just don’t learn why.

I think whatever happens, I want to write the next two books as I’m not someone who can leave something unfinished in my head.

I did pop my synopsis into the Lab fairly recently and got tons of fantastic help. I think one person questioned the ending, hence me questioning it myself.

So as I said to Hannah, I might try querying a few agents and see what happens but thanks so much for taking the time to comment.

Clare x

 

[Lakeland Waffler]

Cliffhangers are for chapters. At the end of the book they feel gimmicky, and as a reader it pisses me off when an author is too obviously trying to get me to buy the next book. I feel cheated and will never buy that author again.

Having said that, there is a way to handle the ending so you draw readers into a trilogy. Ask yourself: what is book 1's main story question? As long as you answer that question, you can still have your overarching trilogy question as: will she find her brother? Then you can totally leave that question unanswered.

Hi @RK Wallis

Thanks for your comments. Super helpful, as always.

I’ve given this a lot of thought over the last day or two and I’m thinking that probably the questions posed at the start of book 1 are- what happened to Sam’s brother and her best friend and can she solve the mystery posed by the tree?

And I think I do answer all these then pose a new question - why did that happen to her brother (Sam sees him and what happened the day he went missing).

So as I said in previous replies, I’m going to make a few submissions and see what happens.

Thanks again.

Clare x