• Café Life is the Colony's main hangout, watering hole and meeting point.

    This is a place where you'll meet and make writing friends, and indulge in stratospherically-elevated wit or barometrically low humour.

    Some Colonists pop in religiously every day before or after work. Others we see here less regularly, but all are equally welcome. Two important grounds rules…

    • Don't give offence
    • Don't take offence

    We now allow political discussion, but strongly suggest it takes place in the Steam Room, which is a private sub-forum within Café Life. It’s only accessible to Full Members.

    You can dismiss this notice by clicking the "x" box

Craft Chat Traditional -v- Independent/Self Publishing

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ancora Imparo

Full Member
Emeritus
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Location
Spain
LitBits
0
Hi, Litopians! In this CraftChat we're looking at traditional publishing -v- independent/self publishing. As with so many subjects we cover, this one is vast and we have by no means exhausted it here. Please feel free to pitch in. There are pros and cons on both sides. It would be great to hear your views and experiences of either – good or bad.

While Galadriel and I write about the different choices writers have these days, Rachel gives excellent advice on marketing. So whichever path you choose, you're covered.

As before, the discussion thread will be open for FIVE DAYS from when we post the Chat. Let us know your thoughts. If you disagree with anything, that’s fine. Tell us why. We love hearing from you. All opinions are welcome and valid additions to our learning. Keep it civil.
Rachel (RK Wallis), Galadriel, Kay (Ancora Imparo)


DIGITAL PUBLISHING
Tired of rejection slips or no responses from agents; dismayed by big name authors writing comfortably with agencies whose literary sparkle doesn’t extend to assisting new authors; trawled through The Writers and Artists Yearbook, agency websites; researched individual agents to discover their favourite authors and their pet hates before measuring your writing against someone else’s yardstick, and on top of that, you’re either running out of agencies because they’ve rejected you, or they have a full client base and are currently closed to submissions.

Self-publishing seems just as daunting, although after feeling the mangle effect (wringer, if you’re American) from the above, you’re on the point of giving it a whirl – if only you could get your head around doing everything yourself: book cover designer, editor, marketer, publicist. And if you’re not literally doing it by yourself, you’re putting in the legwork (and money) to do the above. While all up for learning new skills, chancing making a hash-up of your novel getting ‘out there’ because of inappropriate font, typos, amateur clip-art covers, and even poor paper quality (should you go for a print-run) are just some of the pit-falls of going it alone. The upside is that if your marketing and publicity skills are non-existent, then no one will ever know how amateur your attempts were to present great writing. I’ve never tried self-publishing, but if I did, I would have to ensure my work was packaged as good as if it were traditionally published.

There is an in between road, and that is digital publishing incorporating some print of demand. Taking this route means you have access to some professional boots on the ground, meaning they will do the editing, cover design, marketing, etc. A viable route for the writer who is overwhelmed by the thought of going it alone. When researching digital publishing, take care to read contracts, and be sure that this meets your expectations as a published author. Any publishing service that asks a writer to outlay any money at any point, is vanity publishing, and one that is best avoided.

What is Digital Publishing
Digital media is content delivered on phones, computers, tablets, and other portable media.
  • Generally cheaper than print media; readily available on any device with internet access (obviates need for choosing which or how many books to pop in your holiday suitcase!)
  • It can reach a wider, global audience. If more people can potentially see a book, then it might yield more success
  • Errors within the writing can be quickly, and cheaply rectified; not so with print. It’s never a good look to have grammar and typos in a finished book
  • It’s cost-effective as printing, distribution and shipping costs are done away with
And the companies that offer it?

Bookouture
are part of Hachette Book Group, and one of the ‘big 5.’
Founded in 2012 and based in London, Bookouture has enjoyed a number of publishing successes. Its website is slick and detailed. Currently, there are forty-eight on the team specialising in every aspect of publishing from commissioning editors, digital sales and operations to publicity and social media, audio publishing, and contracts, rights and translation. This list is not exhaustive, and each team member has a photograph of themselves and a mini-bio showing what background, skills and talents they have.

Always open for submissions, they take on both unsolicited and agented writers, and call for a variety of genres. Their books do appear to be firmly fitting (and thus formulaic?) inside the chosen genre. There doesn’t appear to be innovative, complex or quirky writing.

Paraphrasing from their website here is some of what they offer:
  • Editors have years of publisher experience across the industry
  • Their expertise is tailored for authors
  • Publishing is a collaborative process, so author is involved
  • 45% royalty rates (note, there is no advance as with traditional publishing). Their cut is 55% forever.
  • They pay quarterly, giving authors a regular income
  • Even after the book is done and out there, Bookouture will continue to source ways of increasing sales and keeping publicity going
  • Advertising and the use of social media are honed to target and influence consumers

    And their authors are successful?

    Yes, they do appear to be. British author, Angela Marson who writes crime thrillers has (according to Amazon) sold more than five million books in seven years. She has twenty-eight book contract with Bookouture, and from what I’ve seen online, she is delighted that they took her on.

    Shalini Boland, another UK author of psychological thrillers set around her home of Dorset, is also successful with over two million books published. She is prolific with twenty-five books published to date.

    I also came across the following thread [Publisher] Bookouture | Absolute Write Water Cooler
This particular thread dates back to 2013. Read ‘Aruna.’ Her real name is Sharon Maas. She signed up to Bookouture in that same year. Of the thirteen novels she’s written, at least four of them are published by Bookouture. Books — Sharon Maas

There are over one-hundred authors published with them together with author photos and book lists.

The second publisher is Storm Publishing founded by the former CEO of Bookouture in 2022. They too are a dynamic company, and they point out that they are publishers not a publishing service, and therefore do not ask the author to outlay any money. They “pay 50% of net revenue to authors.” Their cut is 50% for 10 years.

They are looking for adult fiction in any genre. Once you submit your MS they intend to get back to you within two weeks.

The third, Thread Publishing is an imprint of Bookouture, specialising in non-fiction: Health, Memoir, Parenting, Self-Development, and so on. Their selling point is ”We want all our titles to be bestsellers – so we treat each of them like one.” Their cut is 55% forever.

To reiterate, if this appeals to you, do your research, and ask questions before you sign anything. For example, how many e-books do you have to sell before a PoD is done? Would you be happy to take 45% on each book sold? Ancora’s warning is that “Amazon, etc., all take their own cut of any sum made, so Hachette/Bookouture will take those fees off BEFORE they calculate any money owed to the author.” This is certainly something you want to take into account when doing your homework. Having said that, the authors I’ve read are really happy with their choices and have enjoyed considerable success. I guess it’s a matter of what is important to you. Do you want to be totally self-published and keep all of the money you earn, or do you want someone to take the reins, and in doing so, accept that a publisher’s expertise is going to require payment? If you have any experience with either the above publishers or others, it would be great to hear from you.
Galadriel



THE MOVING FINGER WRITES AND HAVING WRIT MOVES ON…
Twenty years ago, if you told me you were considering self-publishing, I’d have made a twisted wee face and said, “Are you sure?” Now, I try hard not to show that face when someone tells me they’re “holding out” for traditional publishing. The world is not what it was twenty years ago. Publishing isn’t what it was twenty years ago; writers’ earnings aren’t what they were twenty years ago; and God knows, technology is frighteningly ahead of where it was twenty years ago.

Writers have moved on. We have choices. An entire generation has grown up using online tools to earn a (good) living from their creativity. It's worth looking at some industry figures before you make up your own mind.

The Authors’ Licensing & Collecting Society (ALCS), Published December 2022, showed that “earnings from writing alone for authors with third-party publishers [that’s traditional publishing to you and me] stood at approximately $8,600 (£7,000).” I think we can assume that’s per annum. Most of you know how long it takes to write a (decent) book so you can work out an approximate hourly rate from that figure.

Compare that with the “median revenue” for independent authors in 2022, which stands at about $12,749 (£10,229). [NB: as with these industry reports, I’m using the term “independent author” to mean the same as “self-published author”. Check out the Alliance of Independent Authors (ALLi), who “represent, advance, promote and support independent (self-published) authors globally”. This term is not to be confused with a small, independent press / publisher, which is a tiny publishing house dedicated to traditional publishing. Nor is it to be confused with the hybrid publishing houses who offer to edit etc and publish your book for half, or more, of the book’s lifetime earnings. In my view, those hybrids are not traditional publishers, though they may be affiliated to one. They are new / hybrid companies set up to take advantage of the independent / self-publishing boom.]

The ALCS 2022 report showed “a sustained fall in professional writers’ real terms income from writing over the past 15 year of around 60%.”

ALLi suggests indie / self-publishing authors are bucking that trend: “Average incomes of self-published authors are rising, with a 53% increase in 2022, over the previous year.”
SOURCE

Okay. So what?

Here’s another couple of statistics, and then I’m done with the figures:

Hachette Book Group (parent company Lagardére): Revenue for UK branch, 2022, grew 3.4%. Group revenue for the year totalled €6.9 billion “UP 28.3% from 2021”.
Average executive compensation is around $235,000 pa.

HarperCollins (owned by News Corp): profits have been falling recently. However, stats for 2022: HC operates “with an annual revenue of $2.19 billion The company increased its publishing revenue by 10.5% compared to the 2021 fiscal year”. SOURCE
Average executive salary is £200,000 pa; (highest is $430.000 pa; smallest is $57,000).

I won’t bore you with the rest – you know how to use Google to check traditional publishing houses’ profits. All I would emphasise is that one billion in the US and UK = one thousand million (as far as I know, a billion in the EU = one million million. Please correct me if I’m wrong). Whether it’s in £, $ or € that is a lot of money. It is not going to (most) traditionally published writers.

Edited to add: Penguin Random House, Hachette and HarperCollins have all seen reductions in profits in 2023 and are reducing staff to cut costs. Nonetheless, profits remain in the millions. Here is another great site for keeping up-to-date on information and news for indie authors and traditionally published authors: killzoneblog.com – a fantastic, professional resource for all writers.

Don’t misunderstand me here. I have no problem with anyone earning a lot of money. Good luck to you! Earn as much as you can. Just don’t do it by ripping the piss out of someone else, especially creative people who barely earn enough to scrape by. Compare the salaries the executives of the big publishing houses take for themselves, with what they pay the vast majority of their writers – writers without whom those executives would not have a job.

NB: Smaller publishers, the independents who are not affiliated to what’s known as the Big Five (HarperCollins; Penguin Random House; Macmillan; Simon & Schuster; Hachette (Lagardére)…and all of their many subsidiaries) will be struggling as much as any other small business these days. So, if you’re picked up by a small “independent” traditional publisher they probably won’t be able to offer you much in the way of an advance. That’s not greed; that’s tough economics. For those companies, “Independent” means just that: they are independent of any big company and so they don’t have a big pot of money to dip into whenever they want. I applaud those small independent publishing houses. We need them.

I can hear you say Ah, but it was ever thus: greedy companies take all the money, and poor writers starve in garrets.

Not any more. Not since the IT revolution. And I know we all love to hate Amazon, but it has altered the playing field. Many creatives are taking advantage of that.

So where does that leave writers?

PROS AND CONS
It leaves you with choices.

If you prefer the traditional publishing route, that’s fine. You submit to agents and/or publishers. If accepted, you’ll be offered a deal. They edit your book, ask for rewrites, take you through it all, handle the proofreading, pay for the cover and the print run etc, and sort out distribution (a biggie)…

They may offer you an advance. If your book sells enough copies to recoup that advance for the publisher, that’s great. Once the advance is covered / paid off, you then begin to reap the benefit of any subsequent sales. Those are your royalties. The publishing house may also take a cut of those subsequent sales, depending on your contract with them. If you don’t “earn out”, ie if your book doesn’t sell enough copies to pay back the advance the publishing house gave you, they may not accept any more of your work. Again, it depends on your contract.

Of course they hope you will make them money; they’re a business, not a charity. If your book takes off and starts earning a lot of money, you should start making a lot more money too. At least, that’s the theory.

The major thing to remember about a bona fide traditional publisher is they do not charge you a penny. Nothing. Ever. They pay for it all, and they help you grow as an author by investing their money, time and editorial staff in you. They don't charge you any money before or after taking you on.

THE PROS of traditional publishing are obvious: they do all the heavy lifting with regard to the technical side of publishing. You don’t have to worry about where the hell you find someone to “make” a cover. And formatting – what’s that? Don’t worry, you can leave all that to the traditional publisher. You don’t have to do anything except sit back and wait for the money to roll in, right?

Wrong. (See under.)

The biggest PRO of all, though, for many writers is being able to say to friends and family “I’ve found a publisher!” Which is code for “See! I AM good enough.” That tacit validation is what drives so many writers to hold out for traditional publishing – it sure isn’t the expectation of making a liveable annual salary. Of course, that is absolutely their choice.

Interesting how the term “vanity publishing” has changed over the decades, too.

THE CONS: traditional houses are less likely to take a risk on new writers. They prefer writers with their own website / blog / vlog / FaceBook followers / TikTok followers / Threads followers etc. Traditional publishers, quite rightly, expect writers to be professional, to be committed to growing as a writer / business, to produce consistently good work, and to work hard at the marketing, too.

Even as an unknown, you will be expected to know about social media and you’ll be expected to help market your own book. Don’t think your traditional publisher will do all that while you sit back, drink coffee and dream up the plot for your next book. Like I said: That World is Gone.

You’ll still be expected to do your share of marketing, from book-shop readings and “events” (if you can get them), to social media followers (if you can get them), to selling at your local market, if need be.

They will also expect you to be marketing your book LONG before it is published. They’ll want you building a buzz around it, perhaps doing some short TikTok videos, organising reader reviews etc. This all takes time and effort. Most of it will be yours.

AND IF I DO IT MYSELF?
Publishing independently / self-publishing, means you do it ALL yourself. You write the book. If you can, you have it professionally edited. You have a cover professionally made. You do research on what’s the best way to format your book for different online retailers (Amazon; Apple; Barns & Noble etc). You upload the book online to Amazon etc either formatted as an ebook file or as an ebook plus print on demand (POD).

You need to know all this. As an independent / self-publishing author, you are essentially making a commitment to yourself and your work. You become a small business dedicated to YOU, promoting you and your creativity. For that risk, and hard work, you will reap all the benefits, because all the profit you make (minus the small fee Amazon et al charge for uploading your book) will be yours. All of it. You do all the work, you keep all the money you make (minus expenses, if you delegate, and minus any tax owed).

That’s why, when I hear about hybrid publishing houses that offer writers a “deal” where the house takes 50 or 60% of the writers’ life-time earnings on a book, for giving the book a light edit, a proofread, a cover and an upload, I get incensed. THAT is just one reason why the big publishing houses, and others, are making millions of dollars, pounds or euros in profit out of creatives. Yes, of course, some of those hybrid publishing companies might have decent standards and may accept manuscripts that are pretty good to begin with. Some may be good to deal with. But many won’t. They’ll publish just about anything, and then make sure they take the biggest cut of any profit cake, forever. Multiply that by the thousands (millions?) of writers who will use them and you can see why it’s an attractive side hustle for so many publishing companies.

Those hybrid companies, no matter how they sell it, are still there to make money out of all the writers in the world who want to say those magic words: “I’ve found a publisher!”

To be clear: those hybrid companies are not traditional publishing houses (even though they may be affiliated to them). A traditional publishing house will not charge a writer anything to publish their book, either before publication or after it.

CAVEAT EMPTOR
Whether you pay a company before publication (sometimes known as vanity publishing – which is fine if that’s what you want); or whether you pay a company after publication (as in the hybrid companies who will “edit, proofread, provide a cover and upload the ebook” for a big percentage of your earning on that book forever), my warning is the same:

Know what you’re getting into.
Check the small print.
Check for hidden fees. For example, who pays Amazon’s small fee for uploading digital work – them or you?
Is the total amount you get GROSS or NET? Ask them what that means. Exactly.
Work out the finances before you sign anything over to a hybrid publishing company.

If a service takes 55%, that means for every 100 pounds, dollars or euros, that’s 55 to them and 45 to you. But they will probably take Amazon’s (small) fee out of YOUR slice of the cake, so that’s even less than 45 to you. Is there anything else they deduct? Ask them. Get it in writing.

If you make 1000, they will take 550 and you will make 450, less whatever fees they put in your contract. But you wrote the book! You spent months / years trying to make it the best book you could, writing and rewriting and … and they take the biggest slice of the cake forever, on the book you signed over to them. Excuse me while I go wash my mouth out with soap.

If you think that’s a good deal, then go for it. It may suit writers who don’t mind paying a publishing company for that service. If you can, check with The Society of Authors about any contract from a company that wants to take a cut of your earnings.

ALTERNATIVELY…
Rather than pay a company more than half your earnings for the rest of the book’s life, you could invest in yourself. Delegate the things you can’t do. Check online for designers and illustrators who make covers, either for ebooks or for ebook plus POD (prices vary. Check online. Join forums and ask questions. There is a whole community of indie authors out there and they are incredibly helpful).

Equally, you can find a formatter to make the book ready for digital upload. Or learn how to do it yourself. It’s up to you. It all depends what your budget it and how much you want to invest in yourself.

As an indie author, you have choices.

GOING TO MARKET
Whether you publish traditionally or independently, you’ll have to know how to market your book, using every social media and technological strategy at your disposal. See Rachel’s excellent piece on Marketing (under) for in-depth information on this.

Preferably, begin marketing your book long before it hits Amazon or any book shelf.

Organise ARCS, if you can – Advance Reader Copies. Some companies provide this service. Honest reviews will help sell your work.

Create interest. Give snippets of the book, depending on the genre you’re selling.

Consider TikTok, Instagram etc. Be consistent. Keep it short. Post often. Read up on other indie authors’ successes. Check what they did, which social media they used (and which they didn’t waste time on). This will also be genre dependent.

Don’t make the mistake of going on every social media outlet. That’s a sure way to burnout (it’ll turn readers off, too). Be fussy. Where do other authors in your genre advertise? Do they use Amazon or Facebook ads? TikTok? Threads? Should you have a newsletter? (Probably.) A reader magnet? A website? A blog? How do you plan to engage with your readers to ensure they buy your next book? How long are you going to make them wait for it?

Answers will vary depending on your genre. Ask around on forums. You’ll be surprised how many other indie authors – some very successful – are happy to help newcomers.

Communication and community are strong in the indie world.

I AM THE MASTER OF MY FATE, I AM THE CAPTAIN OF MY SOUL
Poet William Earnest Henley had it right. But you can master technicalities, too.

You can make a cover for free on sites such as Canva.com. You can format your book (Vellum.pub is a good paid-for software, as is Atticus, but there are many other free options). As an indie author you can do all, or most, of it yourself and tailor it to your own budget. It means commitment and loyalty to yourself as a writer, and to your journey as an author. Which, sadly, a lot of traditional publishers no longer offer. If you don’t earn them the biggest slice of the pie, they’ll drop you faster than an old cliché.

And yet, one road can still lead to the other. Traditional publishers are also trawling indie communities and forums, looking for the most popular authors and offering them deals. The carrot offered there is distribution. But it’s another way indie authors are taking control, so it’s good.

You see? Choices.

One last caveat: don't think for a moment that self-publishing or traditionally publishing ONE book is going to make you a decent annual salary. If you make this your job, you have to work at it just like any other job. That means you're writing the next book while you continue to market the one you just published. Have a deadline for finishing it. Build hype around that, too. Have LOTS of ideas ready for your next books and keep that ball rolling. And keep reading! But you do that anyway, right? You're a business. Your words are your product. Write! Keep writing, and keep publishing. That way, you will grow as an author and hopefully your reader base will grow, too.

If you’re sitting thinking Yeah, I can do this! I’ve got a soul. I’m a captain! But, um, what should I write?

Research what sells best, at wordsrated.com

Whatever path you choose, whichever sea you sail, I wish you success.
Ancora Imparo



MARKETING
There are many strategies for marketing, and many of you live and breathe it for your own books, so this chat is familiar ground to some. I invite those people to expand upon what I discuss and share their ideas. Rather than delve into all the “deals” etc you can offer readers which are discussed in this thread: Self-Publishing - Book Marketing Tactics Discussion Thread. I’ll approach marketing from the angle of how you might generate and build interest in your book (then make them wait).

But my Craft Chat is just that – a chat based on my own experiences (I self published in 2017) and observation and research. With my disclaimer out of the way, let’s chat marketing.

Understanding human behaviour and what drives readers to buy books is fundamental to building our own marketing campaigns. So, approach your marketing from a “build interest and they will come” perspective.

This is how you could market from the Instagram platform, but I believe you could adapt these concepts for whatever social platform you prefer. You provide content on Instagram via posts and polls (stays in your feed -unless you archive a post), stories (last 24 hours at the top of your feed), and reels (stays on your page forever).

Visibility
First things first. Let your followers learn to trust you before selling them your book. You could:
  • Post a funny picture e.g. pet picture
  • Ask a question i.e. “My favourite author is Terry Pratchett. Who is your favourite author?”
  • Create a poll i.e. “Who do you want to read next? A. Brandon Sanderson, B. V.E. Schwab or, C. Erin Morgenstern.”
Attract followers using #hashtags then engage with them.

Engagement
Next step:

ANTICIPATION
  • 101 human behaviour: people want what they have to wait for.
  • It makes sense to build anticipation. If you start marketing after your book is released, you’ve lost the opportunity to use your strongest marketing tool. If something is easily accessible, people lose interest and rationalise putting off buying whatever until another day, but we want people to buy our book TODAY. That means BUILD ANTICIPATION and leave readers SALIVATING to press “buy” NOW.
  • Again, you could ask questions and create polls. Answers give you insight into what your audience wants, but they’re also from someone less invested in the writing process (fresh eyes).
  • You can make stories or reels to build anticipation. This time, focus on what parts of your book you can discuss without giving the story away i.e. What is your MC’s favourite colour? Be creative. You’re a writer!
BONUS! Readers will want to buy your book because they feel included in the creative process. People long for involvement. They’ll experience a sense of achievement with you and therefore take on some of your marketing (without even realising it) … the magic of word of mouth/social media shares.

Reel ideas:
  • snippets of your writing or character quotes. This is one of my test reels:
  • character favourite animal/job/food/music … anything to do with character interests.
  • Name 2/3 books similar to yours. Create a reel showing the cover of each book and then your own with the heading, “If you like these books, you should read this one.”
  • Or ask … “if [insert character name] was a colour, what colour would she/he be?/ or flower?/or season?” Create a reel based on your answers and share the reel. This paints a picture of each character without giving aways parts of your story. Followers get a sense for your characters.
  • You can even add a countdown for your book release!

BUILD HYPE AND INTEREST
  • Create mystery around your characters. Followers will not only become curious, they will know if they want to spend time with your characters (and hopefully, they will).
ACCESS BEFORE RELEASE
  • By building hype and interest, you allow followers access to your story and without reading it.
SHOPIFY
Another benefit of Instagram is you can create an Instagram shop, should you choose to be hands on, and you can stock your own books in the shop. Then link Shopify your Instagram shop. Buyers don’t have to leave your feed to buy your book. You just have to post it to them.

LINKS

How Authors can use Instagram to Sell More Books

VLOGS

Use a story to market on Instagram -


R K Wallis
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've been working through a course all about self publishing. I recommend it to anyone thinking of going alone.
another Litopian introduced it to me some time ago.

 
Goodness, there is a LOT of :exploding-head:info to digest in this post. Thank you so much to you three for writing it.

Before I started novel-writing, and I'm only one book in, so a complete novice, I aspired to be traditionally published. I thought self-publishing was too hard and time intensive. I just wanted to write. What a crock! Either way, seems you need to invest so much time into marketing, it just depends on who you're marketing to. A small target group of agents (which is likely to be a soul-sucking endeavour) and then probably have to market to the end-reader anyway, or start with the end-reader market? And that's putting any profit aside for now, because that sounds like a complete Vegas roulette wheel. After reading this craft chat, I'm thinking self-publishing is actually the way to go.

My question is, how many books do you think you should write before embarking on a self-publishing route? I keep hearing that successful authors generally didn't publish their first, or even 5th or 6th, books. But maybe traditional publishing made that a thing, as the rejection rate is so crazy, writers probably had a chance to finish a bunch of books before ever getting a yes. So what about for self-publishing? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, right? There's improving your writing with each book. Plus having a few books finished and waiting if things go well sounds beneficial. ??

Last question is one that I know can't be answered, but how will AI change the publishing world, both traditional and self-publishing? I feel the clock is ticking on this and perhaps the time to act is now, and not wait, as who knows how things will evolve in the near future?

It's enough to make your head spin! I almost want to just keep giving my book away for free (as I've been doing), and forget about ever trying to make any money as a writer. I guess that's always a 3rd option.
 
So what about for self-publishing? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, right?

My humble opinion on this is to not publish any old crap just because you finished it.
Bets readers will tell you if the book is worth pursuing further/polishing up or not.

Sometimes, - I'm on my sixth unpublished novel - you should move on to something else. I've learned lessons with each book. Most of those lessons i couldn't have learned if I'd stuck with that book and published it.
 
After reading this craft chat, I'm thinking self-publishing is actually the way to go.

I totally agree. Why give the fruit of your labour to some faceless company?

how many books do you think you should write before embarking on a self-publishing route?

I only self-published mine after it was accepted by a respectable agent (which told me an agent - aka discerning reader - felt there was raw potential) but, even though editors loved it (at least, that's what my agent said, but I read "finished" lol), it didn't pass the money people because it was too niche (now I think "phew") and my agent recommended self publishing. It was a good book to test the water and gain experience because it wasn't my genre.

I feel asking 'how many books' is the wrong question (but one I've definitely thought myself, for years). IMHO, we should be listening to reader reactions when victims people beta read our books (because every writer is so different, how can we set a limit?). That's why feedback is so important. Did they enjoy it? Were the comments many or few? The last thing we want to do is invest thousands of dollars in editing and cover, plus all the time marketing, only to have our books flop because we jumped the gun.

This is the standard I feel we need to strive for:

This book owes an enormous debt to Francesca Coppa and Sally McGrath, who beta-read and cheered me on throughout the entire writing process on a near-daily basis.

Novik, Naomi. Uprooted . Pan Macmillan UK. Kindle Edition.

Our beta readers need to reach a point where they're cheering us on :)
 
I feel asking 'how many books' is the wrong question (but one I've definitely thought myself, for years). IMHO, we should be listening to reader reactions when victims people beta read our books (because every writer is so different, how can we set a limit?). That's why feedback is so important. Did they enjoy it? Were the comments many or few? The last thing we want to do is invest thousands of dollars in editing and cover, plus all the time marketing, only to have our books flop because we jumped the gun.

This is the standard I feel we need to strive for:

This book owes an enormous debt to Francesca Coppa and Sally McGrath, who beta-read and cheered me on throughout the entire writing process on a near-daily basis.

Novik, Naomi. Uprooted . Pan Macmillan UK. Kindle Edition.

Our beta readers need to reach a point where they're cheering us on :)
Totally! You need beta readers loving it. Championing it. Demanding you publish it. Upset that you won't.

And you're right, the question is the wrong one. Maybe it should have been...

Even if early reader reviews are awesome, it's still the first book... so is it better to have a few finished and well beta-reviewed before even thinking about publishing?

Thanks!!
 
Totally! You need beta readers loving it. Championing it. Demanding you publish it. Upset that you won't.

And you're right, the question is the wrong one. Maybe it should have been...

Even if early reader reviews are awesome, it's still the first book... so is it better to have a few finished and well beta-reviewed before even thinking about publishing?

Thanks!!
I think it depends on the author, and the book. Some writers successfully publish their first book, some have a few hidden away but achieve success with their third, fourth, fifth etc.
 
I think it depends on the author, and the book. Some writers successfully publish their first book, some have a few hidden away but achieve success with their third, fourth, fifth etc.
Yeah, I think the tricky thing here is the judgement call on whether your story is in it's an absolute best form before publishing. I think it's interesting RK was accepted by an agent first. I'd like to hear more about that conversation. Did the agent get any money out of that transaction? I mean they make their money from choosing what they can sell. If you end up self-publishing presumably they are cut out of that. Maybe agents in the future are those who facilitate writers in publishing. Steer and guide them to the best option and help them to find the best incarnation of their story. Editor/agent.
AgEd's. Edgents. Angelitors?
 
Goodness, there is a LOT of :exploding-head:info to digest in this post. Thank you so much to you three for writing it.
Thank you all so much for the hard work and research that's gone into this. @Ancora Imparo @Galadriel @RK Wallis
Thanks, @Jonny and @LJ Beck ! It was intense (but fun) writing this one. We all had so many ideas, and were all learning from each other—which is the entire ethos of these CraftChats—so it worked well. Delighted you found it interesting.
Even if early reader reviews are awesome, it's still the first book... so is it better to have a few finished and well beta-reviewed before even thinking about publishing?
As others have said, LJ, there are a few things to consider: author and book, as @Claire G says; and is your story the best you can make it, as @Pamela Jo says.

I would add this, from my own experience and from watching and working with creatives of all kinds down the years, from designers, successful artists, writers, potters...anyone: when you look back at your earlier work you'll always find it "wanting". Doesn't mean the reader/art critic/ etc thought that, but you will. We're always evolving and learning. And, hopefully, improving. That means there's a point when you have to let a piece of work go and move on to the next one.

If I were self-publishing my first book I would make sure of a few things before pressing the Publish button on Amazon. Yes, I would have it beta read. Once I'd completed all rewrites and suggestions from Betas (that I agreed with), and depending on how strong or poor my editing skills were, I would at least consider having it proofread (much cheaper than line edits or structural analysis). I would also organise ARCS (Advance Reader Copies) so that when the book is published, there are hopefully some reviews for it. I would read those reviews – especially the readers who gave one, two or three stars. Some are just spitefully negative, of course; learn to disregard those. The others – those are your readers. Listen to them. If a lot of them say you lost the plot too many times, then you probably lost the plot too many times. Remember the criticisms when you're writing the next book – make your plot tighter, for example.

AT THE SAME TIME as publishing book one, I would also be working on the next book (and jotting down ideas for others). If self-publishing is just a hobby, as it is for some, that's great. No sweat, no pressure. But for any writer determined to make a go of it and try to earn a living from their talent, I can't emphasise enough that this is a business. And you will have outlays – just as you would if you ran an Icecream Van (petrol, garage bills, tax, insurance, cones, icecream, toppings etc)... or a Removal Firm (lorries, garage bills, tax, salaries for drivers, National insurance etc).

Outlays for the writer used to all be covered by traditional publishers. Lots still are. But not all. And trad publishers have been taking more and more of writers' earnings to cover their outlays, minimise their losses, and maximise their profits. That's what businesses do. If you decide to make this your business, you'll find yourself making decisions like "Can I afford a first-class cover when I only have a third-class budget, i.e my last book barely make a few hundred..." If you can't afford it, you'll have to come up with ideas on how to get a great cover for a lower price (start-ups; students; teach-yourself-Photoshop...don't laugh. I read about one writer who did just that and ended up with a very nice side-business in making other writers' covers for a genre she knew and loved.)

If your book is part of a series, I'd have different rules before publishing the first one: I would at least want to know how the story was meant to end. I know it can all change in the writing, but I'd want to know if the final destination was success or failure; if I was aiming for a happy-ever-after or gut-wrenching ending; did all the seeds I planted in book one blossom by the final book in the series, etc. (And, most importantly, does this series merit three/five/seven boks, or could it be told in two? Padding loses readers.)

TLDR :) Make it as good as you can but don't obsess about it. Publish it. Be writing the second book while marketing the first. Keep moving forward. Rinse and repeat.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top