To Battle!

[Jake E]

Hey all,

I've been hard at work writing and absolutely not ignoring it in favour of Netflix...
But I have come to a problem:
I don't seem to be very good at writing battles. I've been trying for a few days to get it right, but it always reads really flat; like, the tension just isn't there and it just sort of unfolds.
Any tips/advice/dark rituals you care to share?

Many thanks
J

 

[Dorm Ant]

Hey all,

I've been hard at work writing and absolutely not ignoring it in favour of Netflix...
But I have come to a problem:
I don't seem to be very good at writing battles. I've been trying for a few days to get it right, but it always reads really flat; like, the tension just isn't there and it just sort of unfolds.
Any tips/advice/dark rituals you care to share?

Many thanks
J

Yeah. Show us what you have so far.

 

[Jake E]

Yeah. Show us what you have so far.

Fair warning. It's quite long; over 4500 words.
but any tips you can give would be great.

Also, this is fairly far into the story; act 4, and it's been a quite humorous up to now.

 

[E G Logan]

It is hard. I limit myself just to fight scenes, rather than battles, and that is tricky enough.

I was told I had to plan it out – which I think is probably very good advice, so nothing happens that's totally impossible. But for me that meant the scene then read like a description of a chess game, flat and technical.

This is what I found. It may be different for you.
I decided I needed more technical information on the pure basics of fighting. I read 'Write the Fight Right' by Alan Baxter, which has been mentioned on Litopia more than once. There's a fair bit of self-promotion, etc, but I did get one or two useful hints. Looking back, I think I just felt more confident, less completely clueless, after reading it.

[There's a whole other discussion on weapons, but several Litopians I'm sure will help. I had huge fun with that.]

Then I decided: 'who am I kidding?' and opted for the out of sight solution, where as often as possible the fight details are sparse, BUT the pace barrels along. Keep changing the location, changing the observer. Back to the start to clear up the bodies...
Pace is the thing.

 

[Jake E]

It is hard. I limit myself just to fight scenes, rather than battles, and that is tricky enough.

I was told I had to plan it out – which I think is probably very good advice, so nothing happens that's totally impossible. But for me that meant the scene then read like a description of a chess game, flat and technical.

This is what I found. It may be different for you.
I decided I needed more technical information on the pure basics of fighting. I read 'Write the Fight Right' by Alan Baxter, which has been mentioned on Litopia more than once. There's a fair bit of self-promotion, etc, but I did get one or two useful hints. Looking back, I think I just felt more confident, less completely clueless, after reading it.

[There's a whole other discussion on weapons, but several Litopians I'm sure will help. I had huge fun with that.]

Then I decided: 'who am I kidding?' and opted for the out of sight solution, where as often as possible the fight details are sparse, BUT the pace barrels along. Keep changing the location, changing the observer. Back to the start to clear up the bodies...
Pace is the thing.

Yes. I've sort of opted for the same road.
I've tried to steer clear of the actual battle and just sort of follow one character as they stumble through it.

 

[Hannah F]

Hilary Mantel has advised that one of the best ways to keep tension in a battle is from a non-battling POV e.g. someone waiting in a tent; someone at home reading the letters sent back; a nurse trying to patch up the bodies; someone injured on the field seeing the feet, the horse-hooves, hearing the noise not knowing whose side's winning or if they're going to die there. The thing that hooks readers in a battle-scene is not the battle itself, it's the personal stakes of the protagonist and the emotions they are experiencing.

 

[Barbara]

I haven't read your attachment yet. Will try do that later.

Some obvious things come to mind which you may already have covered.

Word choice. Use words like slash a throat as opposed to cut a throat.

Add visceral images. And let your MC experience pain.

How close up is the battle? Is it an army battling, or individuals. If we see a person fight up close it'll be the more intense. I'd move the lens in as close as poss.

Make your heroes suffer and don't let them win easily. Give them the challenge of the fights. Let them lose weapons in close up combat and now they scrabble for it. Stuff like that.

Do I remember right you're writing SIFI? Laser guns etc might make it less dramatic. Get them to disarm echother for close quart combat. A good old fist fight is always fun.

Blow by blow fights read somewhat clinical, and fights aren't like that anyway. Fights are a mess which is why when I write them I often keep the fights muddy in a sense that it's not always clear what's going on blow by blow. But I try do in a way that the reader is still with the MC up close. Not sure that makes sense.

Oh and give them a goal in the fight. A simple 'die, you b*stard' will do.

 

[Jake E]

Do I remember right you're writing SIFI?

My previous WIP was Sci-Fi, the one about Space Pirates, but I've moved on as that one wasn't working very well (A topic for another day)

This one is fantasy. I have posted some of it before so you might remember the grumpy wizard, Derrick. if not, no worries, it was a while ago.

J

 

[Barbara]

Oh and remember, a battle is a collection of individual people having individual fights. Well, sort of, anyway. Individualls may fight but they may not see the entire battle. Also, people on the same team might fight next to each other and you can move the lens from person to person and shift the pov around to create chaos.

 

[Barbara]

My previous WIP was Sci-Fi, the one about Space Pirates, but I've moved on as that one wasn't working very well (A topic for another day)

This one is fantasy. I have posted some of it before so you might remember the grumpy wizard, Derrick. if not, no worries, it was a while ago.

J

You'll be able to have lovely sword fights. Ooooh grand. I love a good old sword fight.

 

[Dorm Ant]

Fair warning. It's quite long; over 4500 words.
but any tips you can give would be great.

Also, this is fairly far into the story; act 4, and it's been a quite humorous up to now.

I think it's fine. Just needs trimming and tightening a little. Two observations:

1. Watch out for repetition. The first page has black several times, and shadows several times.

2. In fight scenes, try to have more of a sense of breathless urgency. For example:

Strodel turned his attention back to Kelthi a little too late. The barbarian was charging him and had covered most of the distance between them.
He stepped to one side as her axe came round in a horrible arc and managed to deflect the blow with a shield before it connected with his abdomen.

Could become something like...

Strodel turned his attention back to Kelthi. Too late.
She charged.
He sprang aside, moved his shield just in time to protect his abdomen.
Her axe struck.

 

[Brayati]

As per @RG Worsey says, there isn't time for long sentences or thinking processes. It's hard to keep the guard up, the arm swinging, the feet trudging through the sludge of blood and mud.
And there's no peripheral vision. The focus is on what's right in front. There's noise everywhere, so it feels like white noise amplified by 50 decibels. A wound may be taken and not felt (that's adrenalin for you), and adrenalin drains quite rapidly for males in a fight, so they start looking around for a rest space - not an escape, but some clean air to breathe.
If you watched Battle of the Bastards in GoT, it was mainly from the POV of one character (Jon) with a few disjointed scenarios that expanded on the sense of utter uselessness and then, in the back of the mind, is the acknowledgement of death breathing in your ear.
Being in a battle, whether it's a gang battle on the streets, or an all-out fight between soldiers of opposing forces that clash head-on (which most try to avoid if they want to survive the battle, which is why they have flanking tactics to shorten the affray) ... anyway, after all that expansion, being in a battle is like drowning in fear that you have to keep buried in your gut, even though the bile is burning your throat and you can't breathe and everyone looks the same and are you facing the right way ... it's a loss of logic and senses, a sense of tragedy. There's no room for propaganda or righteousness - winning is living, losing is dying. That's all there is in the front of mind.

Now, I'll have a read ...

And after the read -
There are a lot of sentences starting with articles (the, etc.) rather than simply showing what's happening. And spaces where events happen without the POV experience. Who is POV? How does it affect them? If an explosion happens, show the explosion and the reaction, rather than tell the events before and after. Show it from the POV experience, which means action-reaction followed by action, etc. For a battle scene, there are a lot of longer sentences, no break between the before and after, and no swirling of battle events (they happen in clumps, rather than constantly). People breathe through their mouths, their eyes are wide and wild, and the bodies are low and braced. Where are the battle stances? Where are the visceral moments?
For me, though, there's a bigger issue. Things are out of order. An example:

The archers drew back on their bows as the Legion advanced towards the walls. The dark line moved purposefully across the sand.

This shows the archers actions before the event that caused it. Yes, they're told to nock, but you don't nock until you're prepared to shoot.

The Legion advanced in rows of [colours, flags, anything else to use as visual effects?]. Archers nocked their bows. The line raised shields and strode across the sand.

Make me feel it as it happens, rather than putting effect before cause, which diffuses tension. Battles are tense and breathless. Make me believe I'm in the middle of a battle, that my heart is beating too fast, that my breathing is louder than the battle drums. Etc.

 

[Jake E]

Excellent advice.
Thanks everyone.

 

[RK Wallis]

Hey @Jake E

Great advice above I'd only recommend analysing a battle scene you love and see how that author creates the effect you enjoy. I'm reading The Way of Kings again, and enjoyed the battle in Chapter 1 Stormblessed. Sanderson creates an atmosphere, but like Hannah suggested choose a non-battling POV. Sanderson does that for most of his chapter (someone standing in an army just before it starts), then he does dip into the battle. Use shorter sentences to give the effect of breathlessness (not all the time). I found this useful:

 

[Jake E]

Great. Thank you.
I've always found battles and conflict to be my weakest hand.

 

[RK Wallis]

Great. Thank you.
I've always found battles and conflict to be my weakest hand.

you're not alone

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Sorry if I'm late to the party. Will download and read.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Thought I'd put this off for a few days, but it was too good to put down. Comments attached. Go Team Derrick!

 

[izi 出久]

Battle scenes are tough. For me, I generally get bored reading a long battle scene. At the same time, I know they are sometimes necessary, and in this case it definitely seems necessary.

I had the most trouble at the beginning of the scene because the writing is so clinical. I don't know Derrik well enough to understand why he doesn't seem to care about anyone or any of the death. I can guess that the soldiers are afraid, but there is no indication in action that they are. I only know because they need to be encouraged.

I have only written one battle scene which I am pretty pleased with, but It is very different than this battle. My advice would be to include more visceral details. If for some reason Derrrik does not feel fear or concern about the people dying, then show me how the soldiers feel.

Also, just a note, the commander seems pretty inexperienced to lose an entire volley of arrows in the dirt before the invading army is close enough. Is this right? And the army watched the first volley and didn't raise their shields. Is that right? Both sides seem a bit new to battle. But I may be misinterpreting it.

 

[Jake E]

Battle scenes are tough. For me, I generally get bored reading a long battle scene. At the same time, I know they are sometimes necessary, and in this case it definitely seems necessary.

I had the most trouble at the beginning of the scene because the writing is so clinical. I don't know Derrik well enough to understand why he doesn't seem to care about anyone or any of the death. I can guess that the soldiers are afraid, but there is no indication in action that they are. I only know because they need to be encouraged.

I have only written one battle scene which I am pretty pleased with, but It is very different than this battle. My advice would be to include more visceral details. If for some reason Derrrik does not feel fear or concern about the people dying, then show me how the soldiers feel.

Also, just a note, the commander seems pretty inexperienced to lose an entire volley of arrows in the dirt before the invading army is close enough. Is this right? And the army watched the first volley and didn't raise their shields. Is that right? Both sides seem a bit new to battle. But I may be misinterpreting it.

Great feedback.
I hadn't considered that the actions of the commander made him seem inexperienced. It's definitely something I will need to look at in the next draft or perhaps I could lean into it. He is not a well liked character.

Derrick is definitely a cynic. You got him in one. For context, he's an immortal wizard, so death is a bit abstract for him. I will definitely try to get more of the 'regular' soldiers' reactions on the page; that's great advice.

 

[izi 出久]

Great feedback.
I hadn't considered that the actions of the commander made him seem inexperienced. It's definitely something I will need to look at in the next draft or perhaps I could lean into it. He is not a well liked character.

Derrick is definitely a cynic. You got him in one. For context, he's an immortal wizard, so death is a bit abstract for him. I will definitely try to get more of the 'regular' soldiers' reactions on the page; that's great advice.

I think I remember a first chapter a while back when Derrick is in his tower... didn't remember his character much when I read this but it's coming back to me a little.

 

[Jake E]

I think I remember a first chapter a while back when Derrick is in his tower... didn't remember his character much when I read this but it's coming back to me a little.

Yes that's right.
However, this is near the end of the fourth act so his character has gone through some development. He's still a bit of a prick, but he's learning.
i might need to highlight that a bit more effectively.

 

[Jake E]

Thought I'd put this off for a few days, but it was too good to put down. Comments attached. Go Team Derrick!

Thanks for this Peyton. I'm glad it gripped you; it means it's doing its job lol.
Good spot on the comma splice, too. I'm usually pretty good a weeding them out, but that one snuck past me.
It's filter words I'm a pain with. Hundreds (maybe even thousands) of them get through my internal editor.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Thanks for this Peyton. I'm glad it gripped you; it means it's doing its job lol.
Good spot on the comma splice, too. I'm usually pretty good a weeding them out, but that one snuck past me.
It's filter words I'm a pain with. Hundreds (maybe even thousands) of them get through my internal editor.

Ah yes, my internal editor thought as he considered and reconsidered this through the filter of his consideration.

Seriously, I tried two technological approaches, since I do not want to sadistically inflict my filter words on a human editor. (Note to self: great story idea!)

A kind heart in Litopia gave me a list of filter words:

Saw
Heard
Thought
Wondered
Seemed
Decided
Knew
Felt
Gave
Looked
Noticed
Realized
Watched
Could
Noted
Chose
Experience
Remembered
Sounded
To be able to

1. I made a search in Scrivener for a list of them and saved it, but that was a little clunky, he thought, because he knew he was lazy and always looking for a more efficient way to get someone else to do his work for him.
2. Then I added filter words to my overused words search in ProWritingAid, and his heart beat fast. OMG, was he falling in love with an AI editor? OMG, yes. He only hoped this would help him become an adult worthy of her. But was she even female, the AI? OMG, another crisis. Did he care? Another crisis. He loved her. But what was she, then? And what about the aliens, he thought... And the fascists surrounding the city...

It works pretty well, he thought as he watched the words appear on the screen as he typed them...

He hoped he had been helpful and that the infliction of his humor had not been too painful.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Yes that's right.
However, this is near the end of the fourth act so his character has gone through some development. He's still a bit of a prick, but he's learning.
i might need to highlight that a bit more effectively.

I did not get that about Derrick being a prick. I thought his cynicism and sarcasm were covers for his sensitivity and caring. He throws himself into harm's way. He's not a prick, however you define that. He's a hero under a cover of hurt feelings. And his name means he lifts up, makes order, builds.