Standard English?

[Rich.]

Over in this thread an interesting discussion developed that I thought warranted its own space. The discussion went like this:

OMG, I wish we could all agree to use English English spelling. Dialects are wonderful, but why must we in the USA suffer from Ben Franklin's print shop problems from hundred of years ago?

As a Canadian (hybrid US/GB) who lives in Europe but also grew up the US, I struggle with this every day. Let's set a global trend and evolve to one standard English rather than this global mashup of s's and z's.

[playing devil's advocate] I rather like the global mashup. Here in Spain, and in many other countries, we have an institution (the Real Academia Española) that safeguards what a small group of establishment-types consider correct language usage. A lot of language is officially prescribed and a lot is proscribed. In practice this means that there is a deeply conservative institution utterly out of touch with actual usage, an institution that admits change at a glacial rate and frowns on the demonstrable reality that language is an ever-changing mirror of humanity. No such institution exists for English.

The global mashup is an aspect of global diversity. In an age where indigenous languages are being lost at a terrifying rate, along with all their associated cultural substance, I would hate to see English become even more standardized. I would hate to see the multi-coloured flames of Englishes around the world doused by cold convenience. Learn the differences, embrace the dialects, write differently in different situations. It will make us better people.

Innit?

This is a very big topic and an interesting one! On a personal level I love the richness and diversity of English usage. In France we have the Académie Française, which is mostly perceived as a bunch of old farts in a dusty cupboard completely out of touch with reality...but they are the official guarantors of the French language.
I would not advocate for any such body in the English-speaking world (heaven help us if we tried! ) but, that said, the practicalities of working in a language where so much varies from one country and continent to another can lead to a lot of head-banging. I have clients who insist on American or British English, and as a copywriter, the key thing is consistency. But the lines are blurring. For example, spell check in Word no longer flags z-words like 'publicize' as a mistake even if GB English is the default language. On a different level, working with many non-native English speakers in France and Switzerland, you can end up with imprecise use of terms (often originating in false friends from other languages). So some sort of standard reference for English is essential. BTW, I have no idea how the translators and interpreters at the UN or EU keep their sanity.

Me neither! They do it in 15-minute bursts, don't they? As for a standard reference for English, there's Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc., but they're reflective rather than prescriptive, which is a good thing, I think. But I do understand the desire for standardization in the corporate world, even if I push against it.

There's an interesting book by Melvyn Bragg, The Adventure of English, that touches this topic and is worth a read.

And oh my, those pesky false friends! After 15 years in Spain I still mix up English sensible and Spanish sensible (the latter meaning sensitive, Jane Austen style). I don't know, I suppose for me it comes down to a fear of homogeneity. I like the richness of difference.

Am I alone in this? What English should we all be using?

 

[Dorm Ant]

I do understand the desire for standardization in the corporate world.

Standardisation.

 

[Rich.]

Standedeyezayshun.

 

[Hannah F]

I like the richness of difference even if it makes it more of a chore when submitting to both UK and YA.

 

[izi 出久]

I love the richness of language and culture. Not interested in seeing any homogenization.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I think that with the Internet connecting people all over the world, and global use of English as a common tongue, we may see a trend toward the development of a standard English, not as something officially prescribed but as something that develops organically as we try to communicate with each other.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I love the richness of nonstandardisation from a purely academic standpoint. As an author it's a pain in the ass. Because although we mostly think of the British vs American English, there's also different Australian and New Zealand English spelling rules that mix the British and American English spellings in completely nonsensical ways. *sigh* And being an American (who somehow grew up learning the British spellings of some words instead of the American ones) in New Zealand, I never remember which spellings I should be using (because, being a complete masochist, I write some stories in American English, some in British English, and some in New Zealand English). Add bilingualism to that (I speak Spanish), and I can be a complete mess when it comes to spelling. LOL!

 

[Vagabond Heart]

I’m British, so obviously I think Johnny Foreigner should be fluent in all aspects of English, including spelling, and understand me when I simply talk extra loud in English to them.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I love the richness of nonstandardisation from a purely academic standpoint. As an author it's a pain in the ass. Because although we mostly think of the British vs American English, there's also different Australian and New Zealand English spelling rules that mix the British and American English spellings in completely nonsensical ways. *sigh* And being an American (who somehow grew up learning the British spellings of some words instead of the American ones) in New Zealand, I never remember which spellings I should be using (because, being a complete masochist, I write some stories in American English, some in British English, and some in New Zealand English). Add bilingualism to that (I speak Spanish), and I can be a complete mess when it comes to spelling. LOL!

Yes. As a child I read a lot of British authors and absorbed their spelling. Personally, if I can sound out a word, I am not bothered by the spelling. What confuses me is when we use common expressions, such as "Blessings be," in different ways. Also, some colloquial expressions I see in Litopia require me to research before I get the meaning. At the same time, I'd rather learn some new vocabulary from British or other Englishes than see it disappear. OUP held a series of discussion on world Englishes earlier this year. Here's a link Oxford World English Symposium 2022 | Oxford English Dictionary.

 

[Dorm Ant]

I love the richness of language and culture. Not interested in seeing any homogenization.

Homogenisation.

Do keep up.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Homogenisation.

Do keep up.

Isn't that something Louis Pasteur did to cow's milk? Let's homogenize. Pardon the Z. It is not because in this life I was born in America. I just love using an otherwise neglected letter. And there's a story in that. Underused letters upset AI. AI wants egality among the alphabet and sets out to achieve it.

 

[izi 出久]

Isn't that something Louis Pasteur did to cow's milk? Let's homogenize. Pardon the Z. It is not because in this life I was born in America. I just love using an otherwise neglected letter. And there's a story in that. Underused letters upset AI. AI wants egality among the alphabet and sets out to achieve it.

Are you hinting you are an AI? I KNEW they were among us...

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I’m British, so obviously I think Johnny Foreigner should be fluent in all aspects of English, including spelling, and understand me when I simply talk extra loud in English to them.

On a trip through Japan and Hong Kong, I spent a night at the YMCA in Kowloon. Recommend it. A tall Australian woman ahead of me in line checked in. Thick Aussie accent. Thunderous voice. Glowering and thinking that loud meant understood. Hilarious.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Are you hinting you are an AI? I KNEW they were among us...

Thank you. My nickname was Spock, long ago. My personality. Thank you for seeing that. I am not an AI. I am a sweet and fragile human who wants... Nevermind. You are pretty and witty and gay. Sigh. And I love your writing...

 

[Rich.]

I think that with the Internet connecting people all over the world, and global use of English as a common tongue, we may see a trend toward the development of a standard English, not as something officially prescribed but as something that develops organically as we try to communicate with each other.

That's an interesting thought. But I must admit that the contrarian in me wonders if the internet is not simply an environment that offers more space in which discrete communities are able to exist, and therefore more opportunities for English to fracture.

OUP held a series of discussion on world Englishes earlier this year. Here's a link Oxford World English Symposium 2022 | Oxford English Dictionary.

This looks fascinating, thanks for sharing it! I found a playlist on YouTube, HERE, with all the webinars.

Add bilingualism to that (I speak Spanish), and I can be a complete mess when it comes to spelling. LOL!

I hear you loud and clear. I'm dreadful at spelling! And my Spanish does bleed into my English quite a lot – 'Yeah, yeah, I'll see you now [meaning 'later'], chao pescao.'

As for z and s, a few years ago I noticed z in Tolkien and went on to discover Oxford spelling. If it's good enough for Middle Earth and the United Nations, it's good enough for me.

 

[Mel L]

That's an interesting thought. But I must admit that the contrarian in me wonders if the internet is not simply an environment that offers more space in which discrete communities are able to exist, and therefore more opportunities for English to fracture.


This looks fascinating, thanks for sharing it! I found a playlist on YouTube, HERE, with all the webinars.


I hear you loud and clear. I'm dreadful at spelling! And my Spanish does bleed into my English quite a lot – 'Yeah, yeah, I'll see you now [meaning 'later'], chao pescao.'

As for z and s, a few years ago I noticed z in Tolkien and went on to discover Oxford spelling. If it's good enough for Middle Earth and the United Nations, it's good enough for me.

Ooh, did not know about Oxford spelling. Thank you @Rich!

I will not apologize
When being told to anglicise
Cuz 'z' is closer to the Greek
Makes me feel much less a geek!

 

[MattScho]

I think that with the Internet connecting people all over the world, and global use of English as a common tongue, we may see a trend toward the development of a standard English, not as something officially prescribed but as something that develops organically as we try to communicate with each other.

Yeah, that's what the internet does, it unites.
Or, perhaps, this will lead to Word War One. Is it possible that the Russian invaders in Ukraine were tipping towards this, proudly scrawling "Z" over, well, everything? As their silly made up Cryllic letters get pushed out in the computer age for non-western conformity, perhaps they decided to make a stand? Z iz see anzwer?

 

[Vagabond Heart]

Matt, surprisingly, seeing the word ‘anzwer’ only makes me want to scratch my own eyes out, not yours as well. So that’s good. Yay.

 

[Hannah F]

Yeah, that's what the internet does, it unites.
Or, perhaps, this will lead to Word War One. Is it possible that the Russian invaders in Ukraine were tipping towards this, proudly scrawling "Z" over, well, everything? As their silly made up Cryllic letters get pushed out in the computer age for non-western conformity, perhaps they decided to make a stand? Z iz see anzwer?

Perhaps Putin watched Zorro

 

[Hannah F]

That's an interesting thought. But I must admit that the contrarian in me wonders if the internet is not simply an environment that offers more space in which discrete communities are able to exist, and therefore more opportunities for English to fracture.


This looks fascinating, thanks for sharing it! I found a playlist on YouTube, HERE, with all the webinars.


I hear you loud and clear. I'm dreadful at spelling! And my Spanish does bleed into my English quite a lot – 'Yeah, yeah, I'll see you now [meaning 'later'], chao pescao.'

As for z and s, a few years ago I noticed z in Tolkien and went on to discover Oxford spelling. If it's good enough for Middle Earth and the United Nations, it's good enough for me.

Great table of international differences in that Oxford link.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

Yeah, that's what the internet does, it unites.
Or, perhaps, this will lead to Word War One. Is it possible that the Russian invaders in Ukraine were tipping towards this, proudly scrawling "Z" over, well, everything? As their silly made up Cryllic letters get pushed out in the computer age for non-western conformity, perhaps they decided to make a stand? Z iz see anzwer?

Good point. Along with people creating greater understanding, there will be propagandists creating conflict.

 

[MattScho]

Good point. Along with people creating greater understanding, there will be propagandists creating conflict.

It's a funny story notion, though

 

[CageSage]

English - standard? Maybe we should see what Shakespeare started with, how he changed things, and then look further back to the dozens of different forms of language spoken on that island?
Current English, in all its many guises, still uses Latin-based grammar rules.
Language adapts to maintain currency, because it's people who use it, speak it, designate meaning. And people change from generation to generation, as does the way they use language. In all the countries it's spoken (find a translator of a 'foreign' language who then goes 'home' and finds how much they don't understand now).

 

[Hannah F]

In England or Dublin "Do you mind" means "does it bother you/would it be okay" e.g. "do you mind me chumming you to the cinema?"

In Scotland, "Do you mind" means "do you remember". I didn't know that when I arrived, so it caused no end of confusion. e.g., with the sentence above:

Friend: "Do you mind me chumming you to the cinema last week?"
Me: "Of course not. I wouldn't have asked if it bothered me."
Friend: "What? I mean do you mind last week? When that guy you fancy kept looking at you."
Me: "I'm not going to ditch you as a film buddy just in case he turns up."
Friend: "So you do mind." She grins.
Me: "What? No, really, I don't mind at all."
Friend laughs. "Oh, yes, you do."

 

[MattScho]

In England or Dublin "Do you mind" means "does it bother you/would it be okay" e.g. "do you mind me chumming you to the cinema?"

In Scotland, "Do you mind" means "do you remember". I didn't know that when I arrived, so it caused no end of confusion. e.g., with the sentence above:

Friend: "Do you mind me chumming you to the cinema last week?"
Me: "Of course not. I wouldn't have asked if it bothered me."
Friend: "What? I mean do you mind last week? When that guy you fancy kept looking at you."
Me: "I'm not going to ditch you as a film buddy just in case he turns up."
Friend: "So you do mind." She grins.
Me: "What? No, really, I don't mind at all."
Friend laughs. "Oh, yes, you do."

I think Americans are more at ease with figuring out the "Do you mind" than the "chumming." chumming would mean throwing bloody bits of fish into the water to attract preditor fish (most famously sharks).

 

[Hannah F]

I think Americans are more at ease with figuring out the "Do you mind" than the "chumming." chumming would mean throwing bloody bits of fish into the water to attract preditor fish (most famously sharks).

Now that would be messy in a cinema! (And pretty scary if it's a 3-D shark movie!)

 

[Dorm Ant]

I don't care how people speak English - variety is fun. I'd consider Hannah's example above to be Scots, rather than English. Unless Scots is considered a form of English? A language in itself, or a dialect? I'm no actually sure. Due to the number of Scots books for children, there's a growing demand for written Scots, rather than just spoken.

I dinna care if people write Scots, American English, Australian English or whatever form of English, as long as they don't present their variation as the standard one. I get seethingly patriotic on one occasion only - when installing new computer software and it asks me to select: ENGLISH UK or ENGLISH US?

That's such a mither (Manchester/Lancashire) that I hit that ENGLISH UK selection, HARD. Practically launch mesen' (Nottingham) across the room, like (Georgie).