Question: Preferences on dual storylines

[izi 出久]

Hi all,

You never fail to deliver sound advice.

I've started writing the second book! I'm allowing myself to write the scenes that won't let me sleep at night first, just to get them out. Some of them are Pedra's. Some Kilatra's. Pedra was the MC in the first book, but Kilatra takes center stage for more of the second book. (51% = majority).

But readers know Pedra, not Kilatra. So, how can I weave two story lines without everyone resenting me for focusing on a new MC?

As a reader, sometimes I hate the interwoven storylines (chapter-by-chapter switches) because I've chosen one character I like better, and I spend the chapters in the other POV wishing I could read about my favorite character. But the chunks (book separated into parts) also can be like that, and then readers will be tortured with groups of chapters in one POV when all they want is to see more of the other character.

Side note: I love them both. It's just that, well, Kilatra is a pretty rough person. An antihero who is often more anti than hero. Some people might have more trouble connecting with her.

Side side note: Yes, these two story lines contribute to the story arc. They converge at the end of the book.

Which books have you read that handled dual storylines well? Poorly? What is your preference? What is your favorite cat breed and why? (<- If you only answer one question, please choose the last)

 

[BrianY]

Does nonfiction count? John McPhee's essay "Brigade de Cuisine" is a remarkable blending of two otherwise mundane storylines; the life of a guy who came to Pennsylvania from Europe to open a restaurant and a typical day in that restaurant. It feels dull just typing it here but McPhee made it a masterpiece by braiding the two storylines together.

Years later, McPhee explained that he would type out the draft text on file cards and then rearrange them until the flow was right.

A Philosopher in the Kitchen

From 1979, John McPhee profiles the mysterious chef who served him the greatest meals of his life.

www.newyorker.com

Be warned: this may be some of the greatest nonfiction writing technique ever, but McPhee wasn't a food guy. The restaurant wasn't all that good.

 

[RK Wallis]

I just watched a video on this I found useful. I realised I needed to slightly move around my scenes, and thanks to the beauty of Scrivener I did that in a night. This was the video:



I really like the way Brigid Kememmer does dual POV. In her Cursebreaker Series. Her first book alternates between her male protag and her female protag. Her 2nd book starts with her female protag of her first novel, another male protag, then another female protag. And how Marisa Meyer weaves her POVs in her Lunar Chronicles series, but that's my preference. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a better answer than reading a lot to find your own preference because at the end of the day, it's your preferences that lean into your unique voice I'm pretty content with shifting POVs. They don't bother me. I'm happy to respect what an author chooses to do.

I love my friend's Siamese, so aloof, love their markings. We can't have a cat (much to my daughter's disgust). Our dog would think we brought home a rabbit for her to kill!

 

[izi 出久]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a better answer than reading a lot to find your own preference because at the end of the day, it's your preferences that lean into your unique voice I'm pretty content with shifting POVs. They don't bother me.

Interesting. I've read some books with POV shifts that really bothered me. I've also read some great ones. Taking a stab, I think it partially has to do with character development. But since at the start of the book Pedra's character is clear for readers and Kilatra's is only briefly hinted at in the first book, the character development issue is precisely the problem I expect to have.

 

[RK Wallis]

Interesting. I've read some books with POV shifts that really bothered me. I've also read some great ones. Taking a stab, I think it partially has to do with character development. But since at the start of the book Pedra's character is clear for readers and Kilatra's is only briefly hinted at in the first book, the character development issue is precisely the problem I expect to have.

I should clarify, "shifting chapter POVs." I remember being surprised and taken back when I started Scarlet in the Lunar Chronicles because she starts with a new character whose grandmother is barely hinted at in Cinder. Can't remember how I got over that. Maybe I asked Google? Soon as I realised what Meyer was doing, I was in hook line and sinker.

 

[BarbaraUS]

But readers know Pedra, not Kilatra. So, how can I weave two story lines without everyone resenting me for focusing on a new MC?

Do you read murder mysteries? There's a great series by Christine Carbo set in Glacier National Park. I expected 2nd book to continue with same P but she switched it up! While it had many of the same characters we followed a different P.
MAde me huffy for a second until i got to know the other P. Then i was hooked. Third book, same thing, and it was fine.

 

[Serra K]

I tried to do a deep dive on this question in the recent past because it is relevant to my own WIP too. It's difficult to apply specific rules to such things because every story requires a unique approach. Remembering the possible titles you shared for your books, the thing that stands out the most is that the first three books each focus on one of three different characters, and understandably, incorporate other characters in some way. If possible, I'd lean into that. I think if the main focus of book one is about Pedra, let the reader invest in Pedra. Have Kilatra's presence in book one, but let her presence be significant based on her relationship with Pedra. Then, when she becomes the star of book two, you can rely on the readers' familiarity with her, though from a distance, before you lead the reader a step further into her POV, allowing her to shine independently.

A book from a different genre, The Last Tudor, by Philippa Gregory, is broken up into three books, each following the POV of one of the three sisters. The first follows Jane, and we get to know her two sisters from a distance by how Jane sees them. Then when we land in Katherine's POV we are familiar with her but find there is more to her than Jane's perception. Finally there is Mary, a character who has been present all along but really comes to life in the third part of the book.

I'm not suggesting that this work is a masterpiece but given the circumstances of the story, I think Gregory has handled this well.

Can't finish without mentioning the master of POV, George RR Martin. Considering his handling of a plethora of characters, might you consider his ability to engage readers with somewhat unlikable people when thinking about Kilatra? For example, Cersei. She is an objectively repugnant human being for the most part. Her redeeming quality? Her genuine love for her children. Then her 'walk of shame' brings most people to their knees, even though, not too long ago, the audience was craving to see her punished. The overall feeling is, 'okay, now they've gone too far.' Being reduced to the lowest form of degradation, being utterly stripped of dignity, audiences begin to change their minds about this seemingly terrible person. It is something most people can relate to, because none of us are immune to to this type of deep humiliation.

There are plenty more examples in Song of Ice and Fire: Theon Greyjoy, Jaime Lannister, to name two more. I'd say if you're worried about how readers will relate to Kilatra, look for some kind of human element that is universal, show it in her character or story, and invite readers to relate to her based on that. We only need at least one thing which ties her experience to ours to make us care, as long as that one thing evokes a powerful emotional reaction.

My favourite breed of cat is whatever my rescues are. I have no idea what they are, but they make me laugh.

 

[Barbara]

First to your important question about fave cat breed. - Well, all of them. Apart from that naked one. But a Norwegian Forest or a Main Coon would be welcome to walk into my house and would be received with a red carpet and trumpets.

Anyway. POV.

It's just that, well, Kilatra is a pretty rough person. An antihero who is often more anti than hero. Some people might have more trouble connecting with her.

.... then you need to make her a hero. Make her fascinating and connect-with-able. Plenty of readers like the bad person. Maybe because they can tap into that 'dark side' we all have but won't allow us to feel unless we can feel it at a distance.

I've been obsessed with writing faulty dark characters. My last MC was good guy falling from grace. Mia is a troubled person doing bad things for bad reason becoming a healthy person doing bad things for good reasons (eh?? - you know what I mean) and my other MC I'm currently writing is a psychotic serial killer but I'm making her charming and funny (that's the intention anyway).

What I'm saying is, don't worry too much. Find a way in which Kilatra becomes the part of the book that keeps readers awake.

Characters who are rough around the edges are so much fun to write and if you're having fun then the readers probably will.

Not sure this is helping.

Have you read The One by John Marrs? He handles 4 (if I remember right) POVs, chapter by chapter. One is a serial killer, and guess which one was the best to read... but he treats every chaper (POV) like a mini book in terms of hooks. Each character has their attraction and that thing we want to find out about them. The chapters are pretty gripping and you want to find out what happens with that one person. He the ends the chapter with sort of a cliffhanger or something that makes you want to stay with that person. By doing that, he's created a real page turner.

I would also say, start the story with Kilatra. That way the readers know from the off that something is different.

Or emotionally let go of Pedra and fall in total love with Kilatra and consider a single POV (Kilatra only).

Fluffy cats rule.

 

[Hannah F]

Bengal Cats. They are the ones I see most as behaviour clients (too clever to be sit by the fire and do nothing pets), but they are still my favourite domestic cat. If you're talking cats in general, the cheetah: beautiful, sleek, graceful. My favourite cat. Must always be wild.

POV in chunks: read The Binding by Bridget Collins. It has a particular reason for choosing that method: two completely different perceptions of the main events. (And a great book imo.)
Others I've read do the chapter by chapter split because the timeline or storyline is running concurrently for each character.
The plot of your book will dictate which to choose. There is no right or wrong way with this.

I agree, start with Kilatra as this is her book. Bring Pedra in pretty quickly either as her own POV chapter or as a secondary character in Kilatra's story - whichever you choose depends on your plot - then readers will pick up the connection and go with it.

But there are no rules. Do what suits your story.

 

[Jake E]

Whenever I think of multiple Points of View done well, I'm immediately drawn to Brandon Sanderson's writing. The Stormlight Archive handles multiple POV throughout several books and I never felt like it was forced or interrupting my enjoyment. I think the key is to pick your moment when to switch; don't switch in the middle of high action - unless all characters are in the same place and involved in the same action. Often this works well at the climax of stories (see Terry Pratchett's... well any Discworld novel or Sanderson's Well of Ascension.) - and the switch must have a point. Like, it infuriates me, personally, when a book switches POV for no reason other than 'oh, lets just check on how this person is getting on'. GRRM and Sanderson always use their POV switches to answer questions for the reader or give more context to a dilemma that's unfolding. In Mistborn, we get POV switches between several characters and each time we get more and more context about a shared problem or wider issue. It's never a switch just because.

Another way to look at it is Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series. He separates his protags with a book each. The first book follows Lyra, the second William and Lyra turns up as a secondary character towards the end of the book, the third book, having now got to know both characters, is shared between both POVs.

As a wild card, I'll also throw in Pratchett. He always writes in multiple POV, but he doesn't do chapters. He simply switches whenever he wants and it just sort of works...

As for the anti-hero thing. A story where this is done really well is The Last of Us; Part 2. Not a book (Its a video game for those not in the know) but it switches to the antagonist halfway through and you start by hating her. But as her story unfolds, you begin to empathise and by the end, when the original protagonist turns up, you're torn between whose side you're actually on.

RE Cats:
I'm more of a dog person.
*legs it*

 

[Serra K]

The Last of Us; Part 2.

I'm glad you mentioned this one because it was one of the stories that came to mind when I was thinking about this. A lot of people were unhappy with the way things ended, but I had a different reaction to the masses of disappointed fans. I felt it was the perfect object lesson in the error of favouring one person over another with limited knowledge.

I think what made it so controversial was the way fans were forced into a realisation about Ellie's flawed human nature. They didn't want to hate her. They didn't want to betray her, or Joel emotionally. And the catch was, you couldn't complete the game without going through with the decisions which were made for you. I remember that final fight and the disgust I felt with every blow against Abby.

After everything that Joel and Ellie had been through, the last thing you'd expect to feel is empathy for the enemy. And after the story has ended, you're left with this cold, empty feeling that forces you to reconsider everything that has taken place.

 

[Jake E]

I'm glad you mentioned this one because it was one of the stories that came to mind when I was thinking about this. A lot of people were unhappy with the way things ended, but I had a different reaction to the masses of disappointed fans. I felt it was the perfect object lesson in the error of favouring one person over another with limited knowledge.

I think what made it so controversial was the way fans were forced into a realisation about Ellie's flawed human nature. They didn't want to hate her. They didn't want to betray her, or Joel emotionally. And the catch was, you couldn't complete the game without going through with the decisions which were made for you. I remember that final fight and the disgust I felt with every blow against Abby.

After everything that Joel and Ellie had been through, the last thing you'd expect to feel is empathy for the enemy. And after the story has ended, you're left with this cold, empty feeling that forces you to reconsider everything that has taken place.

Absolutely.

It's masterful story telling.

 

[Pamela Jo]

John Galsworthy's, the Forsyte Saga, turns a character he first makes you hate into one you totally sympathise with even though you still think he's a shitty person. Soames. I still love the first books for the way he creates character with small details. He creates a world as lost to the past as any in fantasy.

 

[izi 出久]

The Last Tudor, by Philippa Gregory,

I actually quite enjoyed how dark this was. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[izi 出久]

Do you read murder mysteries? There's a great series by Christine Carbo set in Glacier National Park.

Not much... I'm not completely against mystery. I just don't seek out books in the genre. But I have read a few and I'm not opposed to checking this out.

There are plenty more examples in Song of Ice and Fire: Theon Greyjoy, Jaime Lannister, to name two more. I'd say if you're worried about how readers will relate to Kilatra, look for some kind of human element that is universal, show it in her character or story, and invite readers to relate to her based on that. We only need at least one thing which ties her experience to ours to make us care, as long as that one thing evokes a powerful emotional reaction

Excellent point. I wouldn't compare Kilatra to Theon or Jamie quite... I'm trying to build her in a way where she does terrible things purposefully, and yet readers are still torn between Pedra and her at the end of book 2. My hope (am I good enough at writing? Probs not...) is that, like the people who side with Kilatra or Pedra, the reader knows both Kilatra's and Pedra's manipulative natures, all their shortfalls, weaknesses, etc. and still allow themselves to be conned by one or the other. Like Dostoevsky's Napoleon vs. louse concept: if what they are doing is monumental enough, natural law doesn't always apply. Or something like that.

Characters who are rough around the edges are so much fun to write and if you're having fun then the readers probably will.

Yes!! I love rough characters. Just need to make sure I contrast them well. And Kilatra is an unreliable POV in many respects, which is also a bit new for me to write.

I think the key is to pick your moment when to switch; don't switch in the middle of high action - unless all characters are in the same place and involved in the same action.

Ah, definitely think you're on to something. This might be why some books with POV switches bother me so much; they switch right when one POV is entering a climactic moment.

 

[RK Wallis]

Not much... I'm not completely against mystery. I just don't seek out books in the genre. But I have read a few and I'm not opposed to checking this out.

Excellent point. I wouldn't compare Kilatra to Theon or Jamie quite... I'm trying to build her in a way where she does terrible things purposefully, and yet readers are still torn between Pedra and her at the end of book 2. My hope (am I good enough at writing? Probs not...) is that, like the people who side with Kilatra or Pedra, the reader knows both Kilatra's and Pedra's manipulative natures, all their shortfalls, weaknesses, etc. and still allow themselves to be conned by one or the other. Like Dostoevsky's Napoleon vs. louse concept: if what they are doing is monumental enough, natural law doesn't always apply. Or something like that.

Yes!! I love rough characters. Just need to make sure I contrast them well. And Kilatra is an unreliable POV in many respects, which is also a bit new for me to write.

Ah, definitely think you're on to something. This might be why some books with POV switches bother me so much; they switch right when one POV is entering a climactic moment.

lol, I quite like that, it helps push me through the book I find it exciting.

 

[MattScho]

The most interesting use of mutli-POVs I've read is Kesey's Sometimes a Great Notion. He shifts back and forth, sometimes within a single sentence (the change of voice being the only identifier), and merges with a Holy FG moment.
Shorter, easier, but also amazing, Tim O'Brien's In the Lake of the Woods is stunning in that regard (pulitzer, but pisses off a lot of readers). Sanderson's Legend series is uber cool on this, because the many, many POVs are all the same individual. I love the above mentioned Stormlight series, and Myst does this as well, but Legend kicks ass in this regard.
The modern classic, of course, is GOT. so many characters in the air, no wonder he quit on us (as readers) and let HBO run the final convergence into the ground
Oo, edit to add, Welsh's Filth does this brilliantly, as well. One POV, horrible, horrible, cop. the other, his tapeworm

IMO: What makes it work is differing POVs with their differing stories, but occassional intersections before they finally converge.

 

[Jonny]

I suppose there are a couple of obvious contenders in the Fantasy arena. Messrs. JRR & GRR respectively, carry this trick off with aplomb.

I read a standalone comparatively short book last year - Steve Cavanagh's The Verdict where he really pulls off alternate character chapters in a gripping and engaging way. Also, Scottish writer, Chris Brookmyre is excellent at doing this in his darkly comedic thrillers in a way that you almost don't realise he's doing it. Sometimes within the same chapters.

Cats? I'm with Barbara on those naked ones. They're like little mini Smeagols. Yesssssss... gives us the heeby-jeebies, they does. Ssssssss.

 

[Pamela Jo]

I suppose there are a couple of obvious contenders in the Fantasy arena. Messrs. JRR & GRR respectively, carry this trick off with aplomb.

I read a standalone comparatively short book last year - Steve Cavanagh's The Verdict where he really pulls off alternate character chapters in a gripping and engaging way. Also, Scottish writer, Chris Brookmyre is excellent at doing this in his darkly comedic thrillers in a way that you almost don't realise he's doing it. Sometimes within the same chapters.

Cats? I'm with Barbara on those naked ones. They're like little mini Smeagols. Yesssssss... gives us the heeby-jeebies, they does. Ssssssss.

I wrote a story about an alien assassin that took the shape of one of those cats. Sort of John Carter of Mars, but wrinkly, and pink, and instead of Dejah Thoris he's crazy mad for a spinster librarian who operates a mean can opener. Guess what. They leave an oily residue behind wherever they hang out. A sort of ghost outline in grease. And they talk. A lot .

 

[Hannah F]

I wrote a story about an alien assassin that took the shape of one of those cats. Sort of John Carter of Mars, but wrinkly, and pink, and instead of Dejah Thoris he's crazy mad for a spinster librarian who operates a mean can opener. Guess what. They leave an oily residue behind wherever they hang out. A sort of ghost outline in grease. And they talk. A lot .

And they suffer terribly from sunburn.