Love & Lust

[Paul Whybrow]

​

I previously posted a thread, a couple of years ago, about the perils of writing about sex, but we've attracted more members to the Colony since then, so I'm encouraging fresh opinions.

I've come back to the subject, as I'm in the early stages of writing my fifth Cornish Detective novel, enjoying the process of constructing the crimes my protagonist detective is going to investigate, but also cogitating on how he's going to handle a love affair—and how I'm going to write it.

I've seen the advice given to writers of crime stories, that they shouldn't drag in romantic elements, for fear of diluting the tough guy potency of the private investigator or detective. I had a think about this, and largely agreed, though recalled that there are some crime writers, I admire, who successfully integrate the love lives of their characters into their investigations. Dennis Lehane's Kenzie & Gennaro series, and James Lee Burke's Dave Robicheaux novels handle the joys and disappointments of love and lust with tact and common sense, showing how the emotional state of the protagonists affects them and their work. As for Jo Nesbo's Harry Hole series, who has to be the most successfully realised dysfunctional detective ever, if he's not getting drunk or doing drugs, he's sniffing around women, and if he's not bedding them, he's masturbating!

My own protagonist detective has gone from being a recent widower, falling into dark depression in the first two novels, to reinventing himself with the help of counselling in the next two stories. Now, in book five, he's confronted with the alluring presence of a witness from the opening story, who he's kept in contact with by email and Skype, while she was living in Wyoming. He's confident and randy enough to have sex again, without feeling like he's betraying his dead wife.

I'm not intimidated by writing romantic and love making scenes, having working experience through being a relationship counsellor, and also from penning erotica to order back in the 1980s (the strangest requested story being a woman who was aroused by wardrobes!). What bothers me more, is avoiding the horrible clichés that infect many novelists' sentences whenever things look like they're about to go horizontal. Typically, the male character suddenly becomes aware of the woman's scent or hair or the cut of her clothing, and I think, "Uh, oh, he's got the horn!"

It's not just embarrassed crime writers that drop these heavy-handed hints. I'm currently enjoying Richard Flanagan's The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which won the 2014 Man Booker Prize, in which a catastrophic love affair between the protagonist and his uncle's wife haunts him for the rest of his life. They haven't done it yet, but Flanagan signalled the upcoming action in a scene where the skimpily dressed wife prowls a beach of sunbathers 'aware of the gaze of men and women' and 'filled with the strangest restlessness. 'Ooh err, missus, you better go and have a good lie down!

What bothers you about how writers handle romance and sex?

Are there any authors who you think do it well?

How much lovey-dovey and rumpy-pumpy do you include in your crime/science-fiction/thriller/fantasy/historical novels?

I'm looking forward to giving my detective protagonist a happy personal life, via his burgeoning love affair, as, up to now, he's largely got through by clinging to the demands of his work. Long term, I intend to treat his romantic and sexual feelings as just a part of life, though his immediate state of euphoria will lead to him missing vital clues in his current investigation.

As Socrates said, 'Every action has its pleasures and its price.'
(Miserable old git! )

 

[Carol Rose]

*clears throat* Speaking as someone who has had to find new and interesting ways for her characters to do the horizontal bob, and everything leading up to it, for 96 freaking books now.... the reason you tend to see the same phrases or emotions leading up to the act is because let's face it, folks. There really are only so many ways you can describe putting tab A into slot B. Or slot C. Or D if you're into that. But seriously, it is a challenge, and sometimes the tried and true does slip through. Most of us do try to keep it varied.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Gawd help me out with this one. I don't really want to go there. The story's not about that, but then again, the man ain't a monk and he does meet someone. Is she 'the one' ? Maybe. Cue a snog in an owl coop, a bit of disruption in the trouser department (his) but nothing knickerless. Don't want to set a red herring story wise.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Well, my novels are MG, so sex is out. My short stories are adult material, but not like Carol's stories are 'adult' material. I have a tendency to avoid new love (I find it icky), and prefer writing older characters who have been in stable, long-term relationships in which the sexual bit isn't the focus. One of my favourite books is The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry by Rachel Joyce--there is so much romance in that story, and none of it is about sex. It's about being with and supporting someone through the long haul. To me, that's the interesting part of relationships. Sex is boring. (And here, @Carol Rose is thinking how happy she is most people don't find sex boring! )

 

[Howard]

You know, this is something I think about. If my YA novel ever gets anywhere (hah!), I am determined that sex should feature in it, later in the series. Firstly, sex is a pivotal thing to many young people (god help them), but also, I think YA novels skate over the subject too much. Thing is, I have no idea how to approach it.
Sex is an act of need and passion, for the most part. Has sod all to do with love (whatever that is) or emotion. It's animalistic: necessary, even. Flowering it up is great for the genre that loves it (seriously: not knocking those kind of works. If I could write them, I bloody well would!) but, if you are trying to be honest about characters and their (teenage and confused) needs, its more basic than that.
He says. Still having no idea what he will do when he has to write it...

 

[Carol Rose]

You all might hate for me suggesting this ... but if you want a great example of how to approach writing lust and longing between teens where the book can't have on-screen sex because of the genre, I really think Stephanie Myers does a wonderful job with the emotion, and with the arousal that mere kisses and embraces can bring to a couple, in the first Twilight book. Not kidding here. There's the whole vampire undying love thing going on, but both are virgins, and there is no on-screen sex until book 4 when they are married. But she definitely keeps the interest and the emotion going.

 

[Amber]

There are books written about writing sex scenes. I'm not convinced books on writing ever did anyone much good though. I might change my mind. Every time I change my mind I buy a .99 ebook on writing which I never read.

It might be fun to write about your detective losing his ability to concentrate because he's in love/lust. If he's a strong manly man, it's always fun to see them unmanned.

What bothers you about how writers handle romance and sex?

Romance and sex are difference things. I only thought it important to point out because they are paired in this question.

Reading something where the right/wrong good/bad of a sexual experience or practice isn't litigated would be nice.

Are there any authors who you think do it well?

Yes. I know of one in particular. They might be published soon. Which would be cool. But more on that should they be published. They weren't written by me.

But .... I like Anne Rice -- even though she doesn't fall into this category. I also like Laurell K Hamilton. Or, I used to. I got tired of her.

In the romance category, Eloisa James and Lisa Kleypas are very good.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, I like sex scenes when it's the culmination of something going on with the characters or in the story.

How much lovey-dovey and rumpy-pumpy do you include in your crime/science-fiction/thriller/fantasy/historical novels?

I'm not very confident writing sex scenes but now that I think about it -- I have more sex than I thought in my stories. They need to be worked on.

In the dystopic stories I'm writing, I suppose sex is part of the theme. Although, most of them aren't love stories. I imagine I have to make them more interesting. Even though, I think it's obvious the sex scenes aren't meant to make anyone swoon. So, we'll see.

In the other story I'm writing there is all kinds of sex too but as with the other story, everyone comes around towards the end. There's a character in the story who is being driven mad with jealousy. I've been struggling some with it. As you can imagine, they aren't necessarily hot sex scenes, although maybe they would be to someone. There is such a thing as fetishized cuckolding. But since the scene is written from the cuckolded's point of view it's hardly an expression of perfect love. He's not happy. I'm trying to get to a point .... and I think it's that sex in the scene is a vehicle for something other than love ... it has a purpose ... whether it does other things too ... or even does what I mean for it to do ... I actually don't know. I don't think so yet. But in my head... it has potential.

I have a Jekyll/Hyde dark fairy story I'm fond of but which I'm not working on currently. In the opening pages, the heroine does something horrible. I love it so much. I've been struggling with whether I should give up the very terrible thing she does .... whether I should delete it ... for years. I might end up writing two versions.

So, some but very little lovey dovey ..... lots of strange other stuff.

 

[OperaDivaAlix]

​

I previously posted a thread, a couple of years ago, about theperils of writing about sex, but we've attracted more members to the Colony since then, so I'm encouraging fresh opinions.

I've come back to the subject, as I'm in the early stages of writing my fifth Cornish Detective novel, enjoying the process of constructing the crimes my protagonist detective is going to investigate, but also cogitating on how he's going to handle a love affair—and how I'm going to write it.

I've seen the advice given to writers of crime stories, that they shouldn't drag in romantic elements, for fear of diluting the tough guy potency of the private investigator or detective. I had a think about this, and largely agreed, though recalled that there are some crime writers, I admire, who successfully integrate the love lives of their characters into their investigations. Dennis Lehane'sKenzie & Gennaro series, and James Lee Burke'sDave Robicheauxnovels handle the joys and disappointments of love and lust with tact and common sense, showing how the emotional state of the protagonists affects them and their work. As for Jo Nesbo'sHarry Hole series, who has to be the most successfully realised dysfunctional detective ever, if he's not getting drunk or doing drugs, he's sniffing around women, and if he's not bedding them, he's masturbating!

My own protagonist detective has gone from being a recent widower, falling into dark depression in the first two novels, to reinventing himself with the help of counselling in the next two stories. Now, in book five, he's confronted with the alluring presence of a witness from the opening story, who he's kept in contact with by email and Skype, while she was living in Wyoming. He's confident and randy enough to have sex again, without feeling like he's betraying his dead wife.

I'm not intimidated by writing romantic and love making scenes, having working experience through being a relationship counsellor, and also from penning erotica to order back in the 1980s (the strangest requested story being a woman who was aroused by wardrobes!). What bothers me more, is avoiding the horrible clichés that infect many novelists' sentences whenever things look like they're about to go horizontal. Typically, the male character suddenly becomes aware of the woman's scent or hair or the cut of her clothing, and I think, "Uh, oh, he's got the horn!"

It's not just embarrassed crime writers that drop these heavy-handed hints. I'm currently enjoying Richard Flanagan's The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which won the 2014 Man Booker Prize, in which a catastrophic love affair between the protagonist and his uncle's wife haunts him for the rest of his life. They haven't done it yet, but Flanagan signalled the upcoming action in a scene where the skimpily dressed wife prowls a beach of sunbathers 'aware of the gaze of men and women' and 'filled with the strangest restlessness. 'Ooh err, missus, you better go and have a good lie down!

What bothers you about how writers handle romance and sex?

Are there any authors who you think do it well?

How much lovey-dovey and rumpy-pumpy do you include in your crime/science-fiction/thriller/fantasy/historical novels?

I'm looking forward to giving my detective protagonist a happy personal life, via his burgeoning love affair, as, up to now, he's largely got through by clinging to the demands of his work. Long term, I intend to treat his romantic and sexual feelings as just a part of life, though his immediate state of euphoria will lead to him missing vital clues in his current investigation.

As Socrates said, 'Every action has its pleasures and its price.'
(Miserable old git! )

Hi Paul, If sex scenes play a crucial part in your story such as - character development, character relationships or for seductive intentions think of the famous Sharon Stone film ‘Basic Instinct’ etc. As a writer you shouldn’t be asking yourself those sort of questions if such scenes are relevant or not. Remember there are other ways to show intimacy between your characters and you don’t have to write such prose fifty shades style. I have never seen the films and I have no intention of doing so. I brought the first fifty shades book, I never finished it. It Just didn’t do it for me. Also regarding your sex scenes always be mindful of your target age group and what you are trying to portray. As sex is something we all experience and can relate to. So back to your own question Lust or Love? In my submission to Pete, yes sex scenes are included because my main character is a randy bugger but such intimacy is relevant regarding one particular woman he beds, the one he can’t seem to forget. Under tragic circumstances their romance does rekindle some what and they sleep together and sixteen years is soon forgotten between them. I had no problem writing such scenes as it was relevant for my characters and the progression of the story. Had to tone it down a little though lol

 

[OperaDivaAlix]

​

I previously posted a thread, a couple of years ago, about theperils of writing about sex, but we've attracted more members to the Colony since then, so I'm encouraging fresh opinions.

I've come back to the subject, as I'm in the early stages of writing my fifth Cornish Detective novel, enjoying the process of constructing the crimes my protagonist detective is going to investigate, but also cogitating on how he's going to handle a love affair—and how I'm going to write it.

I've seen the advice given to writers of crime stories, that they shouldn't drag in romantic elements, for fear of diluting the tough guy potency of the private investigator or detective. I had a think about this, and largely agreed, though recalled that there are some crime writers, I admire, who successfully integrate the love lives of their characters into their investigations. Dennis Lehane'sKenzie & Gennaro series, and James Lee Burke'sDave Robicheauxnovels handle the joys and disappointments of love and lust with tact and common sense, showing how the emotional state of the protagonists affects them and their work. As for Jo Nesbo'sHarry Hole series, who has to be the most successfully realised dysfunctional detective ever, if he's not getting drunk or doing drugs, he's sniffing around women, and if he's not bedding them, he's masturbating!

My own protagonist detective has gone from being a recent widower, falling into dark depression in the first two novels, to reinventing himself with the help of counselling in the next two stories. Now, in book five, he's confronted with the alluring presence of a witness from the opening story, who he's kept in contact with by email and Skype, while she was living in Wyoming. He's confident and randy enough to have sex again, without feeling like he's betraying his dead wife.

I'm not intimidated by writing romantic and love making scenes, having working experience through being a relationship counsellor, and also from penning erotica to order back in the 1980s (the strangest requested story being a woman who was aroused by wardrobes!). What bothers me more, is avoiding the horrible clichés that infect many novelists' sentences whenever things look like they're about to go horizontal. Typically, the male character suddenly becomes aware of the woman's scent or hair or the cut of her clothing, and I think, "Uh, oh, he's got the horn!"

It's not just embarrassed crime writers that drop these heavy-handed hints. I'm currently enjoying Richard Flanagan's The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which won the 2014 Man Booker Prize, in which a catastrophic love affair between the protagonist and his uncle's wife haunts him for the rest of his life. They haven't done it yet, but Flanagan signalled the upcoming action in a scene where the skimpily dressed wife prowls a beach of sunbathers 'aware of the gaze of men and women' and 'filled with the strangest restlessness. 'Ooh err, missus, you better go and have a good lie down!

What bothers you about how writers handle romance and sex?

Are there any authors who you think do it well?

How much lovey-dovey and rumpy-pumpy do you include in your crime/science-fiction/thriller/fantasy/historical novels?

I'm looking forward to giving my detective protagonist a happy personal life, via his burgeoning love affair, as, up to now, he's largely got through by clinging to the demands of his work. Long term, I intend to treat his romantic and sexual feelings as just a part of life, though his immediate state of euphoria will lead to him missing vital clues in his current investigation.

As Socrates said, 'Every action has its pleasures and its price.'
(Miserable old git! )

My Creative Writer teacher once told me. Regarding my writing, there is more power in the words you don’t say. Basically less is more, show don’t tell, use all the senses look up, look down then all around. So regarding so called sex scenes they don’t need to be all brash, big and bold. They can be more powerful small and subtle. Inaudible body language. That is the difference between Lust and Love in my personal opinion as a writer. The way a man looks at a woman. The way his eyes dance with passion as he looks deeply in her eyes, searching her soul. The way he holds a woman are his hands on her arse or higher up as he embraces her. Cliche Cheese I know lol

 

[Paul Whybrow]

In the last couple of months, I've read several of Walter Mosley's crime novels, featuring his private investigator Easy Rawlins. A Hollywood film was made of Rawlins' adventures in the first of the series, Devil in a Blue Dress, with Denzel Washington playing Easy—casting that undoubtedly put bums on seats, but he isn't much like the character.

Mosley has an effortless style of writing, and is really good at internal dialogue and melding his protagonist's sleuthing with his private life, including affairs of the heart. In one of the later stories, Rose Gold, Easy visits his lady love Bonnie, and at the start of a chapter, there's a brilliantly written sex scene which throws the reader straight into the action, encapsulating how close and passionate they are in nine sentences.

It's a lesson that I'm going to remember, when I finally let my detective protagonist get lucky, after a dry patch of eight years!

I rang the bell and she opened the door. Not saying a word, I advanced on her. She leaned into me and we were kissing. I picked her up and then we were in the bed making love to each other's body with a skill, wonder, and deep hunger. I remember that our orgasms were surprises, coming at odd times and not at all in sync. What might have been a disconnect for others only served to bring us closer. We could luxuriate in the other's loss of control and see how powerful our impact was.

We were both sated after the initial encounter but couldn't stop kissing and caressing. Soon we were at it again.

 

[Amber]

I hate it when writers go on for page after page, inserting things in orifices, sighing, collapsing, gripping and grasping. I like this scene. It might be a scene meant precisely for these two people andreflect exactly how these people relate to one another. Isn't that the best?

I shall now be over-analytical... it's a gift....

He advances -- which really comes across as a military type of action. So -- pretty awesome. With one unique choice of word he communicates that all his resources are committed to this action -- and that's hot. Every woman alive just lost her breath.

I also like the way the author doesn't insert any intermediate steps in between the kiss and the bed. Sometime last year, I was reading a submission to a critique group and the writer had the characters walking across rooms, opening doors, etc. I think she was new to writing -- I think it must be something we all do when we're new to writing. To me, the only reason to be walking across a room is if means something -- maybe the passage of time ... anything. But in a love/sex scene -- I think it takes a lot of confidence to do it this way. The author went balls out.

Then the tense he uses is brilliant. All of this happened before he realized it happened. His brain was always a step behind and it seems the character has a big brain.

Interesting I might look for one of his books .,..

Thanks for sharing this. -- Amber

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Although I'm still 100 pages away from writing my Cornish Detective's return to love-making, I'm still cogitating on how to phrase the encounter.

Describing sexual activity is a hard thing (no pun intended) to do. There's an article in today's New York Times that considers the problem:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/05/books/review/sarah-lyall-writing-sex.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fbooks&action=click&contentCollection=books®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront

If I took the advice in the article of what's 'in' and what's 'out', it looks like I should avoid using ocean metaphors to describe the sensations of intercourse, but it's OK to bring in an octopus! I shouldn't refer to man meat but substituting a bowl of raw liver is hunky-dory.

I'm confused....

Hunter S. Thompson was right:

 

[Amber]

Is the word moist in or out this year?

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Is the word moist in or out this year?

Who knows? But, Wet Wipes are always in...and I always know who ends up sleeping on the damp patch!